New 410 musings - Ex Cayman

[JayEmm]

Ah, Lotus. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory over stupid things.

Granted, replacing a roof on these cars is not a minor undertaking, but the process should be quite slick and hassle free for the owner who has parted with major £££ to buy the car in the first place.

[jonnyboy]

I really wouldn't want to paint it no. Would you buy a Rolex and paint half the face because its got a scratch on it? 

[CocoPops]

Not quite the same analogy...

I hear what you're saying... but... at what point is it acceptable?

If they painted the root (in situ but fully stripped back) and gave you £1k for example and a car as loan in mean time?
Or painted it plus £2k, £3k....

Where is your "red line"? Or is it simply "I want a new roof or I'm done"?
(Not saying any answer is wrong btw, I'm just interested)
I think I'd accept a painted roof plus some recompense.

[Registered]

For a carbon fibre roof the whole point is a CF look.  If the only option was to paint the roof I would want £30k back not £3k.

In fact I would rather leave the CF roof as it is and get back £20k than to paint it and get back £30k.

These little aesthetic things are very important to alot of people.

They only way to buy a Lotus car these days is used and at the bottom end of used.  Less expectations and a car that will no longer depreciate in most cases.

 

Edited July 10, 2018 by Registered

[jonnyboy]

Don't really know Lee

I don't think any requests for anything will find ears listening so it's a pointless discussion.

At the moment I'm pressing on with rejecting it as I just can't see how to progress. Lotus say it passed QC. The real reason is that it's stuck permanently to the car and can't easily be replaced. I don't think it's fair to be asked to accept it as it is and I certainly don't think it would be fair to have the carbon painted over as it's one of the defining features of the car. I think I just need to put it down to experience and move on. Just when I got the seats comfy and the sound system sorted....and ceramic coat. Oh Dear!

[PaulCP]

16 minutes ago, Registered said:

For a carbon fibre roof the whole point is a CF look.  

 

But, correct me if I’m wrong, the sail panel is still a bit of shiny plastic isn’t it so a CF roof with a gloss sail panel are sill an oddity to the eye

[C8RKH]

@Registered please get real - £20k, £30k back. Really. Why not go the whole hog and get a free GT430 thrown in. 

@jonnyboy my roof is similar to yours ( my car and yours made at same time so the 'old' carbon supplier pre prodrive. I can live with it for now and have not raised it as an issue to be honest. Waiting for a couple of other items to be fixed and will report back once all done re the experience.

2 minutes ago, PaulCP said:

But, correct me if I’m wrong, the sail panel is still a bit of shiny plastic isn’t it so a CF roof with a gloss sail panel are sill an oddity to the eye

It actually works ok in the flesh to be honest.... I'm actually inclined to paint my sail panel body colour 😨

[Registered]

Which is why rejection is the only option. Anything less than £20k when buying new is not on.  It should not have passed QC.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Registered

[Bravo73]

1 hour ago, jonnyboy said:

I really wouldn't want to paint it no. Would you buy a Rolex and paint half the face because its got a scratch on it? 

It’s not an entirely ridiculous suggest. 

Why do you think that the ‘TSWLM tribute’ 410 had a partially painted bootlid?

[JayEmm]

I have pointed out many times that the sail panel on these cars should be CF. Many have told me that it's too difficult to do, too expensive, etc....

Well, they managed it on the GTEs! It's also a piece known for breaking so seems like it could do with an upgrade.

@Bravo73 unless you know something about that specific car, I would have thought the part painted lid was just to help it look a bit more like the car it is trying to replicate. If I ever had a 410 style boot I would be very tempted to do the same. I think it looks ace and helps those sexy louvres stand out even more.

[jonnyboy]

Ironically that would have been a pretty acceptable way to sort the tailgate out but that's been replaced. The little panel things would be OK in CF but I think it looks OK against the rear upper cover.

[scotty435]

Don't get all the advice being given mainly regarding painting the roof, the biggest appeal about the 410 is the Carbon exterior treatment to the car. And can not see one bit of a problem for someone rejecting a car if a company are unwilling to put right what is a major fault and sadly for Jonny lotus not being very helpful yet again. To me its not unfair to ask for the roof to be replaced, no matter what it involves. If lotus come back and say no we can not do it. The only way out is to sadly reject the car. That's why we have consumer rights. Good luck the outcome Jonny in what I can only imagine being a very painful situation to have to go through.

[tim_marra]

I think the roof replacement is unlikely due to secondary damage potential. My earlier suggestion was to part paint the roof to leave the centre recess exposed which would not only provide a nice detail, but would show the roof is indeed CF, and with a couple of pinstripes along the blend line and matched on the front access panel would be unique, and IMHO not detract from the styling intent of the full exposed CF roof.

I think your only other realistic alternative is to be offered another 410, and Lotus take back yours for development purposes etc.

Good luck with it anyway.

Edited July 10, 2018 by tim_marra

[bosshog]

1 hour ago, JayEmm said:

I have pointed out many times that the sail panel on these cars should be CF. Many have told me that it's too difficult to do, too expensive, etc....

Well, they managed it on the GTEs! It's also a piece known for breaking so seems like it could do with an upgrade.

 

I think because a) its cheaper b) much more easy to fit as it has flex c) lighter.

 

[anthonyyule]

Im not sure how relevant this is but I’ll be honest that I’ve never actually gotten down and checked over all of the carbon on my 430. It actually took my detailer to point out several small glitches in the weave. Does that make me lazy or less of an owner - I don’t think it does... but I can live with minor imperfections in something like carbon fibre which is a natural weave. The same sort of weave that we find every day in our clothing and I wonder how often we return clothes which has a slight weave out of line? Maybe folks do??

ive messed up my front splitter and I’m gutted by that but it was self inflicted. I’ve also got a couple of marks on the roof which are clearly part of the manufacturing process but I appreciate they are small enough that they would pass QC. I can live with that.

tbh - I can’t see any noticeable defects in any of your pics.... sorry!

[jonnyboy]

Well they are there trust me. If I do see the car again the best way to see it is in a video which I'll be sure to take. The affect is almost hologram like. It's been noticed by a couple of none car/detail people as well much to my irritation!

Over 4 weeks now without the car. I have no idea what's going on at all. 

[tim_marra]

As I understand it, whilst the carbon is a natural product, the weave is manufactured so is not natural.

And Jonnyboy - if you have handed the rejection etc to Black Horse as you have 'lost all interest' it shouldn't be a surprise that you are not up to speed with current progress.

[pete]

If this is a cosmetic problem I didn't think it could be rejected and is a warranty issue . Has it been rejected for other issues too.

[scotty435]

Wow the can not believe the negativity towards this thread, if Jonny is not happy with what looks like a no solution, being the complicity of changing the roof, why should there be a problem with regecting the car?. Please give the guy a break, we all need to be happy no matter how much money we fork out and in this case it's rather a lot of cash. 

[pete]

Wasn't being negative,was asking a genuine question

[jonnyboy]

It's only the roof that I have a real issue with. The reasoning is well documented many times in this thread so there s no need for me to go over it again. You go spend 80k on a car with this issue and see if you accept it is what I would say. 

 

[tim_marra]

My suggestion of a part painted roof leaving an exposed carbon centre section is an outcome I would accept personally. Hence why I put it forward.

I do accept it may not be a suitable compromise for you though.

[mdavies]

Without getting into what to do now - well discussed above - I’m with Jon’s perspective on this.

Buying a new car consists of “buying a car” and “buying NEW!”

Many options for the first bit - including saving some/a lot of money in comparison with the new price+OTR.  Demo cars, Almost New <1,000 miles, One Owner <4,000 miles, and the whole range of SH. Many options will include examples near indistinguishable from new - but they will not be NEW!

The NEW bit is unique. A car is, or it isn’t. NEW is special, emotionally charged, probably a process of months, building  from the first pang of wanting though battles between heart and head until the “not sensible but I only live once” commitment; something special for me, unsullied by others; “perfect”, that’s what I’m paying for.  So asking whether it will be blemished is not a likely thought - it’s “NEW!”  Then the waiting.

When collection day comes “love is blind”. How can anyone see their love object through other than adoring eyes?  Inspect it for flaws? That’s what you do for SH - but this is NEW!

So when some sad reality strikes, it’s not a matter of “a car worth a bit less”, or that “some compromise must be made because the rest of it great”, or “the flaw can be hidden this way.”  No, it’s totally ruined - the NEWness has not been fulfilled. It never was truly NEW.  I could have bought an “almost new” one to the same spec. more cheaply.......I really don’t care any more.

A few £K’s “compensation” is no compensation - I’ve lost my “NEW car”.

PS: Happened to me: a gearbox fault on a brand new Quality Make (not Lotus). Crashed gears several times on the way home. “This can’t be happening; must be that I’m not used to the clutch action.” A couple of days before I admitted the fault to myself. In the end I accepted that the oil had been analysed for metal, the fix done and the warranty extended to four years. But the car was never the same for me.  Sympathy Jon.

[Spinney]

I’ve been reading this thread with more than just a passing interest since jonnyboy started it as I’m waiting for delivery of my own new 410.

Without seeing the roof blemish he has spoken of, I’m not going to pass any comment, one way or the other, but one recurring theme running throughout though is how this blemish is completely unacceptable on an £80k car and how Lotus need to up their game if they intend playing with the big boys. Now whilst I agree that any new car should be blemish free I’ve spent an interesting hour or so this afternoon reading several owners stories about panel corrosion on almost new McLarens. Some owners have been complaining of oxidisation under the paint causing bubbling in several aluminium panels on cars only a few months old. 

All manufacturers should continually strive to improve quality but given these are cars costing in excess of £150k, it does kind of put some of the reported QC issues with Lotus into perspective. 

Seems as though I’ve maybe dodged a bullet by choosing the Lotus over the McLaren. 😂

[Bruss]

_{Just watching a program about building the Bentley 4x4. Lotus (and others) could learn a lot about quality and customer expectations.}