Future of the Evora in the USA

[Barrykearley]

Substance and Porsche discussion in one topic ? Nope - don’t believe it

[ramjet]

That's a bit unfair Barry.

Porsche cars are made of substances aren't they?

[C8RKH]

Shit is a substance is it not?  Just saying....

I've just spent 3 days and 900 miles odd with 24 petrol heads. The assembled cast of cars was everything from a 780bhp stage 5 GTR Nismo, to a Mclaren 570spider, three Audi R8 V10's, a stage 4 GTR, several Golf R and RS Focus cars with circa 400bhp, a GT3 RS (lovely lava orange) etc.

By mutual agreement the car that sounded the best - the Evora 410 Sport. The Macca driver and the R8 drivers were all impressed with the Evora and the carbon - there is non really on their cars; it's all plastic and when new they were £30-80k more than the Evora 410 sport.

The McLaren driver was really taken with the 410 Sport. The number of comments I got about the design and quality of the interior - I wasn't expecting that....

Generally, the car was a real hit.  I do think sometimes we don't give Lotus quite enough credit for what they create and do, with limited means, and how they drive.  One of the R8 owners (a pure R8 RWS V10 - rear wheel drive only) was an ex Evora owner and he frequently admitted the Evora was the better handling car - the R8 was much more of a handful to drive as quick, but did sound wonderful on full chat.

[TpupNomad]

Here's renderings of the Evora GT for the US...

 

 

[Bravo73]

So, in essence, an Evora 410 with the updated rear bumper? 🤦‍♂️

[Ccd]

Here is my BIG issue.  If I was not on this forum, I would never know the GT existed.  Just checked the Lotus (USA) website.  It mentions the hypercar and the concept GT4, though there isn’t much there aside from mentioning the cars.  It delves more into the Evora 400, but there is NO mention of the GT even though dealers are apparently taking deposits on it and I assume this is the only car you can order from Lotus in the USA!!!  

[bruchion]

Anyone know the weight and 0-60 time?

[TpupNomad]

The very rough specs I received say 3.8 sec 0-60 for the manual.  No weights listed.

[bruchion]

What's slowing this car down?  The Evora GT 430 Sport which essentially is the Evora GT does 0-60 in 3.6 seconds.

 

[Simon Bateman]

If it's just basically a 410 and not a 430 then I'd not expect a much quicker 0-60 than stated.

From memory there was initially some doubt on the forum that the engine map on the 410 was actually any different to the 400, so maybe the performance in the end just comes down to the weight improvement over the 400 and on the Lotus site for this model they have the figures as 186mph, 4.0 secs (for the manual) and 1361kg.

The 400 is the same top speed, 4.1 secs and 1395kg.

I note that the 0 - 62 figure for the manual (4.2 secs) is the same for the 410 as it was on the 400!!

It sounds about right to me and I'm also slightly sceptical about what the final weight figure would be if a buyer played around with the seat choice and more importantly added back the AC and ICE.

Sorry, but from the seat of my 400, ignoring the lovely carbon fibre parts, this doesn't look much of a leap forward for what is quite a substantial cost increase.

[Ccd]

The Evora GT sound like the continuation of a ploy Lotus has had to employ in the past due to lack of a development budget: minor ECU map changes to get marginal increases in hp along with dropping weight thru the use of CF and taking things out that most people will just option back in (like AC and a radio).  These days are thankfully coming to an end.  The Evora GT is a placeholder, to keep Lotus in the US until truly new models start to arrive.   It’s not that different from the 400 because Lotus either has not had time to develop a truly improved model or (more likely) resources are focused on new models.  

I suspect Lotus knows the GT will not be a sales success.  Last time I checked, the GT wasn’t on the US Lotus website and there has been no advertising or press coverage of the car.  

To be fair, we have to give Lotus time to bring out some new product.  It’s not like they have had the resources to do so before being purchased by Geely.

[ken2020]

Personally, I don’t  think that Lotus was looking for a sales success. They were looking for quick cash. Quick and easy to find 60 people in the US that were willing to satisfy their hunger for a GT430.  Customers who were not looking to buy left over 400’s two years after the bumper redesigns came out. The 400 is a fine car. I love them.  It’s not a GT430 though. 

‘As the one of the few who have actually had a glimpse of the US GT. It feels like a 400 with some new wheels.  I want one. I thought I ordered one. However, they are not the car that the demographic of the GT430 wants to buy.  This is hard and emotional. I’ve been called misinformed and a series of other insults but the one I’m not is wrong. I asked the right questions before I ordered. I didn’t take specifications for granted. I made sure that the info came from the proper company sources. It was suppose to be 422hp without J hook rotors. Easy fixes. The car being substituted is not the carrot that was waved under our noses.  This isn’t a dealer issue. To many customers are having the same reaction.  Even if they fix the car. Which they won’t.  Arrogance is the issue. It’s probably to late to restore trust. Even for a Lifelong Lotus fan. Definitely to many issues to be a sales success. 

[Loquacious Lew]

I won't repeat here what I said on LT but for America, the 400 is the only sensible Lotus to buy from new. (Don't say Duh! Of course it's a duh!)    If they want a placeholder until later they should just get on with promoting the shit out of the 400 and selling a few in pretty colors at aggressive prices to those of us who see it as a sensible proposition.  Also, getting to work on customer interactions and service capabilities here.  They're going to need them anyway so why wait?.  That's something that can be done without retooling anything except  attitude coupled with a small investment in those much needed parts stocks and response capabilities.  

 

The 400 has taken a long time to get into the market but people are buying them if slowly.  They should build the best ones they can and sell them here with full confidence as expressed in a generous warranty.  

 

 

[johnpwalsh]

I may be missing the point here, but, haven't all the announcements over the last few months been about increased support for dealers and owners. I am sure at the 70th bash is was strongly emphasised how things were going to progress with better customer support etc. New dealers in the USA will take time to set up. New models wont just fall off the production line. Changes to older models to comply with updated regulations are simply not worth the expense. The big players have had all their marketing in place for years. Lotus under Geely are basically starting from scratch. Just my thoughts.

[C8RKH]

On 03/05/2019 at 09:25, Simon Bateman said:

If it's just basically a 410 and not a 430 then I'd not expect a much quicker 0-60 than stated.

From memory there was initially some doubt on the forum that the engine map on the 410 was actually any different to the 400, so maybe the performance in the end just comes down to the weight improvement over the 400 and on the Lotus site for this model they have the figures as 186mph, 4.0 secs (for the manual) and 1361kg.

The 400 is the same top speed, 4.1 secs and 1395kg.

I note that the 0 - 62 figure for the manual (4.2 secs) is the same for the 410 as it was on the 400!!

It sounds about right to me and I'm also slightly sceptical about what the final weight figure would be if a buyer played around with the seat choice and more importantly added back the AC and ICE.

Sorry, but from the seat of my 400, ignoring the lovely carbon fibre parts, this doesn't look much of a leap forward for what is quite a substantial cost increase.

410 Sport was 3 seconds a lap faster around Hethel than the 400. Combination I would assume of the CUP tyres, tweaked suspension and lower weight. I'm not going to even bother getting into a willy waving conversation as to whether the 400 and 410 have different maps or power outputs. I prefer to stick to facts.

At around 4s 0-60 ( slightly faster in IPS mode) and 180mph both the 400 and 410 are plenty fast enough for public roads anywhere, even on the Autobahn. I would guess in anyone other than an experienced pro driver the laptimes for a normal driver would be similar in either car.

Just buy one. Drive it. And grin like a dickhead every time you do.

[pharriso]

On 06/05/2019 at 13:15, C8RKH said:

Just buy one. Drive it. And grin like a dickhead every time you do.

I did & I do!

[Simon Bateman]

On 06/05/2019 at 18:15, C8RKH said:

 I'm not going to even bother getting into a willy waving conversation as to whether the 400 and 410 have different maps or power outputs. I prefer to stick to facts.

Far be it for me to be the cause of the waving of any appendage below the waist line, but the facts as you call them, look a bit dubious to be honest.

Evo magazine ran a test feature in 2015 regarding the track time benefits of running a cup 2 over a MPSS and quoted a figure of at least 2 seconds over a 2k circuit.  Given that Hethel is 3.5k, then I suspect that in itself would account for all or much of the lap time improvements that you mention for the 410 over the 400.

Ask anyone in the know and they will not be able to emphasise enough just how effective the cup 2's are on a dry circuit against an alternative 'fast' road tyre like the super sport.

lovely bit of kit that the 410's are.......in terms of additional bang per buck, IMHO they have never really stacked up and in the same way that say a Sport racer owner could argue that the 400's are too much of a price hike, I feel the same way about the 410's.

[C8RKH]

@Simon Bateman pointless post for me mate as I'd already said it was down to the tyres mostly.  Hence why I did not and am not claiming anything about maps / power being different. 

[Simon Bateman]

Thank you for your words of wisdom.....I will try harder to be relevant on future posts 😃

[C8RKH]

No wisdom from me and I'm always drifting off topic. 🙉

[Loquacious Lew]

On 06/05/2019 at 02:42, johnpwalsh said:

I may be missing the point here, but, haven't all the announcements over the last few months been about increased support for dealers and owners. I am sure at the 70th bash is was strongly emphasised how things were going to progress with better customer support etc..............

 

Announcements are nice.

[Ccd]

If you want to see where Lotus stands in the US currently, take a look at the auction site Bring A Trailer (BAT).  Last year an 2017 Evora 400 with very few miles sold for $55,000.  There is now a 2017 with 2500 miles on auction.  With 2 days to go, bidding is at $58,000.  On this same site, Porsches regularly sell for stupidly high prices.  Announcements are not going to get it, especially when the announce is for a uber-expensive hypercar and a race car with little mention of renovation to their current line-up other than “stay tuned.”

[Likuid]

Honestly its not a shock at this point in time Evora 400s are not auctioning well. When you are buying a car at auction you need to be ready to purchase withing a small window and most likely have knowledge of the car you are purchasing. Its not a great car to sell at auction because of this. Most people don't know what the car even is so they are unlikely to bid on it. Which I assume is your point. You would most likely get more money selling it privately. Sure, it may take a little while, but with patience you will easily get more money for the car IMO.

Rebuilding the Lotus name isn't going to be an overnight thing and lets be honest at this point Geely / Lotus is just squeezing what they can out of current line-up until the new line-up is ready. Even the interim car they are talking about will most likely be based on the Evora. Maybe with updated styling, modern interior, and maybe engine? Its not going to be something that rejuvenates the brand, but most likely to hold over dealerships.

The hyper car is advertising. Plain and simple. If Lotus makes a great hyper car that is all over the car sites and magazines then that helps the brand. If they then follow that up with an announcement of a  great new line-up of cars they can then start using that to get new dealers involved and hopefully with Geely's pull get Volvo dealers involved in bolstering the dealership network.

Now this could all fail, but honestly if Lotus makes a great hyper car, rolls that success into a new line-up of great cars, and rolls that into a more comprehensive dealer network I have to imagine its going to take Lotus to places they have may never been in their history. Only time will tell.

[Ccd]

This may be a little off topic, but I have been thinking about what would be the last great analogue car.  The press makes a big deal out of NA Porsches (GT3), Ferraris (Superfast 812) and Audis (R8).  With the exception of the GT3, none have a manual as an option.  

I would think the Lotus would have to be in this conversation.  And over the longer term, I suspect that Evora prices will begin to rise once people realize that, after maybe a manual GT3, there is only the Lotus Evora.  Then again, once the baby boomers all die off or get too old to drive, the younger generations may not value manual shift or NA cars as all they know will be dual clutch transmissions and turbos.

[C8RKH]

5 hours ago, Ccd said:

the younger generations may not value manual shift or NA cars as all they know will be dual clutch transmissions and turbos.

Interesting pov and yes, I do think a large number of drivers, both younger AND baby boomers have been seduced by flappy paddles and a good blower.

I do think the GT3 is a very special car - I mean what can you really not like about NA. Manual. And 9k revs?  Even a Porsche bigot like me can accept that is one hell of a package/car.