Brexit

[Barrykearley]

Bt did a survey that had very similar results

that was canned and covered up - the bt ceo then did an open remain letter

i would put it 75/25 - I just don't know where this idea of 50/50 comes from. Now just hoping it will go the way I'd like

[Andyww]

It depends who you ask. I was chatting yesterday to someone who has an office next to us, and is a quite well known hairdresser who has his name on shops all over London and Surrey. He was very surprised when I said I was voting leave and said he had never met anyone before who is voting leave. Exactly the same from another office in our block, he runs a training company.

On the other hand all the people I know socially, who mostly are business owners in the fields of building, printing, engineering, electronics etc are all leave without exception.

The young, and especially those in London are very much remainers as are people who work in the education sector and public service. Its possible that many wont vote at all though.

[21gg]

Well I've just heard Cameron utter the words, think of the children! Says it all ? 

[franjipane]

15 hours ago, ChrisJ said:

I assume it is this one

 

 

This is how misinformation gets spread, just in the first minute alone he says 'it's laws overrule our laws, it's laws are supreme' which is just not how it works.

We have representatives in the EU commission, EU parliament and the council of EU.  All 3 of those groups have to agree on an EU law before it's passed.  Then Westminster has to choose if the EU law takes precedence over our law.  There's no doubt Westminster Parliament is our supreme law making authority, if an EU law take precedence over UK law it's because our elected MPs chose for that happen.

 

 

I have found some good arguments for the leave campaign that aren't steeped in nonsense and rhetoric though, worth a read - https://medium.com/@jackshenker/an-alternative-euref-reading-list-944be09f3327#.9wqhp0x4a

[Andyww]

The opening sentence of this, states that EU laws mainly override UK laws:

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-law-and-uk/

[franjipane]

And we mainly allow that to happen, we could challenge EU laws but we don't because we generally like being in the EU.  And we have representatives making the EU laws in the first place.

The problem with this whole situation that i see, is that a lot of people in this country and not happy with the way things are, but we've allowed it all to happen.  Not enough housing, hospital staff, not enough investment in the NHS, not building enough schools.  Our fault, our government, not the EU.  It's our government we should be trying to change in my humble opinion.  And use our power in the EU, as one of the strongest members, to push for more democracy.

[Andyww]

The Government based their plans on forecasts which turned out to be wildly out. Thats the problem. But how can you forecast when you cant control?

[franjipane]

Getting off topic here a bit but as an example, i'm pretty sure the Conservatives were the ones that passed the law that enabled the privatisation of the NHS.  They cut investment to make it easier to privatise it.  And we get worse care as a result.  That's got nothing to do with the EU, that's the fault of our government that we elected. 

[C8RKH]

OK @franjipane I really do need to respond to that utter bollocks you just posted. Ever since the NHS was created, by LABOUR, we have had a two tier system of delivery, from both the public and the private sector. So what you have said there is just plainly NOT true.  EVERY GP practice in the UK is a "PRIVATE BUSINESS" that is run by partners/directors and that CONTRACTS with the NHS to deliver general practice services. The contract is variable and they can contract for different services, hence not every service being available at every GP practice.  The vast majority of GP businesses have shareholders, usually the doctors who practice within them and these Doctors buy shares when they join the practice, and sell those shares when they leave / retire.

The GP's themselves, and their trade union the BMA, conveniently hid this BASIC FACT and TRUTH from the general population as it suits their need and desire, to be seen as Public Servants and a part of the Public NHS Service, when they are indeed nothing more than a private business who contracts to the NHS.

You never hear of this when the BMA spokesperson comes on complaining about large private businesses, like Atos, Serco and others, winning NHS business and the stealthy privatisation of the NHS. 90% of the general public do not realise that GP services are in effect already private and have been since the beginning.

I have many friends who are GP's and we get on well. Indeed, only at the last dinner party one of them remarked how it was year end and they were busy with their returns to maximise the practice income from the NHS and talked about the targets the Practice Manager (a business person) would be given for the coming year to ensure they maximised the opportunity to earn. The irony of this discussion was lost on them and as I was enjoying my food and wine I did not pursue it.

And what about Surgeons and Consultants who are allowed to carry out and deliver PRIVATE medicine using NHS resources? That has been the status quo for decades and nothing to do with recent party politics of any colour.

What is the difference between a small private company delivering NHS services under a contract and a large one?  None!

To say that all private delivery of care is bad (private = worse care you said), when all public delivery in the NHS is good, is just plain daft, miss-informed, and insulting. There are many stellar examples of exemplary private contracting businesses who deliver superb NHS care services, just as there are many superb examples delivered directly by the public NHS. The reverse is also true in both cases, or do you regard Staffordshire Hospitals NHS performance as exemplary recently?

You peddle the very same dis-information that you accuse every one else of peddling. Remain. Brexit. Meh....  All the same and all full of bullshit.

[franjipane]

I've had private health care while at a previous employer, it was great.

I have friends who are GPs, i know they run their practises as businesses.

The current healthcare system in this country is very good compared to entirely private run healthcare in for example America.

The NHS repairs budget has been cut by £1.1bn this year, that's 30%.  That means machinery, equipment, staffing and care in general will suffer.

Am i missing something?  That doesn't sound like bullshit to me.

[C8RKH]

I responded to your points raised which were:

1.  the Conservatives were the ones that passed the law that enabled the privatisation of the NHS

2. They cut investment to make it easier to privatise it.  And we get worse care as a result - ergo massive implication that Private = Worse 

with:

1. Utter bollocks as the NHS has been a two tier public : private undertaking since the beginning - which you then agreed with in the post above re your GP friends

2. Example of how private does not equal worse, public does not equal better e.g Staffordshire hospitals Trust - to which you responded with "I have had private healthcare and it was great" so contradicting your earlier statement (private = worse) and supporting my counter point to your original point!

You then respond with some random but remotely related stuff, including reference to "entirely private healthcare in for example America" which again is totally wrong as they do have, albeit limited and not to the extent of the UK, a publicly funded Healthcare scheme called Medicare, launched in 1966 and which provides insurance backed services for Americans aged 65 or older who have worked and paid into the system - it is delivered by private institutions as they do not have public hospitals per se, but it is paid for publically and so funding wise for the patient similar to the UK - free at the point of need. Incidentally it also provides publically funded health insurance to younger people with specific disabilities or illnesses. I do however accept that the level of cover is not as comprehensive, desirable or attractive, as the UK's NHS.

As for the budget being cut - that's a new and different argument that you have introduced and not related to your two earlier points, it's additive to the debate and a timeless problem - more budget = higher taxes or more efficiency. Which route do we take?

Incidentally in 2000 the UK was behind in public medical provision spending (NHS in our terms) when compared to the top 14 countries in Europe. Despite the previous Labour Governments pledges to close that gap (after 12 years of power) and 5 years of the Conservatists and Cameron's pledge to increase spending, we are now at the level those 14 countries were at (spend as % of GDP) in 2000. They however also increased their spend in those 15 years so in real terms, after a majority period under Labour rule, we are still behind.

Hardly a glowing endorsement for any party to be in honest and in Scotland, NHS spending provision is even worse after what, 10 years of the SNP in power in Holyrood.

Not sure what all of this have to do with the Euro question though as it is all within our national give and control.

 

[Andyww]

The NHS has no accountability and poor performance and incompetence is covered up. It pays out £100 million a year to families it kills through poor quality care and mistakes. If it were a private company the directors would be in jail by now.

The whole thing needs to be abolished and a health system based on best-practice implemented, which would likely be modelled on Germany or Spain, and also funded to a similar level.

Strange how we never get the best from Europe, only the worst.

[franjipane]

@C8RKHYou missed the bit where i said if people aren't happy with the current situation in this country then it's our government we should be trying to change rather than leave the EU.  In my opinion that would be a better solution.  If we leave the EU now our current government will be defining the terms with which we leave, i don't have confidence they will do so in the best interests of working/middle class people.  If we are able to sort our government out then a brevet could be negotiated with better terms for people like you and me.  Expressing an opinion is not peddling shit.

You've misunderstood what i was getting at, to go into more detail private healthcare can be great, as i said, but it's not the solution for everyone as many won't be able to afford it if we adopt a paid for system as in America.  Plus I think cutting the NHS budget to force the perception that the NHS is failing, while opening it up for more privatisation is not a good thing in many ways.  But as we are veering further off topic i'll just drop it.  Happy to have a discussion another time about the NHS budget cuts and private healthcare   

To be honest though mate, i'd rather talk about cars.

[C8RKH]

Very true. You are more likely to die in hospital due to something you did not originally go in with, as opposed to what you did go in with. Frightening places in general.

[Bibs]

 

[100th_Idiot]

Sky have pushed the episode of John Oliver's Last Week Tonight until after the polls close. In it he has a 15 segment commentary on Brexit. Sky say it is to comply with Ofcom impartiality rules which seems a little off given the diatribe we are subjected to from both sides in all media outlets across the UK at the moment and that satire is exempt from these impartiality rules.

Anyway. You can watch it here as he tries to explain to a US audience what is going on. 

The song at the end made me laugh.

https://www.engadget.com/2016/06/21/sky-john-oliver-last-week-tonight-brexit/

[Chillidoggy]

On ‎20‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 11:28, franjipane said:

Both campaigning sides are a farce, however here's a video from someone who knows a thing or 2 about the issues and is cutting through the nonsense.  If your reasons for leaving are important for you then fair enough, but it's at least worth a watch and dispels a lot of the myths around the EU.  Bit of a shame that both sides can't campaign more like this guy  -

 

 

 

Firstly, it should be pointed out that Professor Michael Dougan holds a Jean Monnet chair, which basically means he receives EU funding to study and promote EU law so he is hardly unbiased or independent.

[franjipane]

It's no secret what his job is, he's also come forth and said he'd have plenty of work for a long time if we left the EU.

You don't have to take his word for it, but others seem to agree on the principles of what he says - https://next.ft.com/content/0260242c-370b-11e6-9a05-82a9b15a8ee7#axzz4CJHp6vc1

Your mileage may vary, pinch of salt etc.

[Barrykearley]

I'm not in one bit interested in what these self obsessed euro milking tossers think.

they all have their snouts in the trough and are as corrupt as the rest of them

it seems once in the heady highs of the eu echelons - they forget what it's like for the normal working man as the smell of money, lobster and bollinger overpower them.

the working man - the Eu simply don't give a monkeys toss about - it's all a con. Big business need population growth to underpin the obsession with continued year on year business growth. It's all corporate greed - what's wrong with the country nicely tickling alone with all our needs met???

A vote for remain is simply a vote to sell out our country. To give away our future, our sovereignty and our dignity. @C8RKH chip in lad - this needs some balance!!

[ChrisJ]

@franjipane - What has the EU ever done for me/you/us ?

As we have been in the EU for 40 years, I would hope that this is a long list.

 

[Barrykearley]

Frantically searching the Internet for a picture of sweet f@ck all.........

[franjipane]

@ChrisJ help yourself https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=what+has+the+eu+done+for+us&pws=0

i'm not bothered which way you vote, and i'm not some sort of evangelist for any side, i see pros/cons in both.  If you want to do some research then go for it, there's been lots posted here by a number of people and pretty much every website around seems to have an opinion either way.

[Barrykearley]

Hmmm

thats an utter load of rhetoric and is just fuzzy words.

nuts and bolts - you could say that European regeneration project are a success in parts of Wales etc. But ? Hmm, oh yes - that was our money in the first place - we gave to them - they top sliced it and then gave a small bit back.

in the real world - would anyone give half of their income away !!!!

[franjipane]

I've no idea what you're on about there Barry you're mad as a hatter!

I'll leave you to it.

Before i duck out of this thread which isn't really productive anymore, have a laugh at this - http://politicalscrapbook.net/2016/06/a-fed-up-man-has-taken-out-a-full-page-ad-in-the-metro-to-make-his-point-about-the-eu-referendum/

Whatever happens i hope we can just move on and get on with life.

[C8RKH]

39 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

. @C8RKH chip in lad - this needs some balance!!

Provide balance - me! For Christ's sake Barry I'm a big fat bloke with the poise, grace and balance of a hippopotamus on smack!

However, I will say that I take with a pinch much of what the academics are saying for a variety of reasons:

1. You really do need to understand who funds their work, pays their salaries, and the institutions that they work for. In my humble opinion Academics are more nefarious and more devious about it than members of organised crime syndicates like the mafia!  The more senior they are, the more gravitas they appear to have, the deeper their snouts are in someones arse / trough. Sorry, not convinced by any of them, either Remain or Leave
 

2. Many of them just do not live in the real world, with tight deadlines, huge job pressures, etc etc. They live in a cushioned bubble were people fawn over their greatness etc (I accept those academics at the start of their careers need to work harder and are under more pressure)

3. They love stating the bleeding obvious, or justify what they say as being hypothetical, but you rarely do they stay after the party to help to clean up the mess - in other words, like a Panda they eat, shoot and leave.

Hope that helps the balance