Brexit

[franjipane]

Yes all EU money comes from EU member states.

Barry, to say they are all un-elected is not true, We have elected representatives in the EU parliament and council. Likening the EU to communist China is mad.

What we need the government to do, which the leave campaign has failed to do so far, is give us a guarantee that they will replace the lost money from the EU.

Can't see it happen myself, Boris and friends are only going to look after the wealthiest.

[Andyww]

17 hours ago, march said:

I will not actually be celebrating this the outcome as I believe it is not a victory but an outcome of a failed project that at it's inception had truly good and appropriate aims but was manipulated into an expansionist undemocratic state.

Just look at the EU response - they are trying to stop other states exercising their right to act in a democratic manner and offer a referendum - THIS IS NOT DEMOCRACY!

Very true and also they are blaming everything on an internal split in the Tory party. Not a peep from them about anything they might have got wrong themselves.

[Chillidoggy]

2 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

@ian29gte Eu grants are distributed by the Eu unelected elite. Akin if you like to communist China. The money they hand out comes from revenues they raise by charging member states to be part of the club. Like any clubs - there is a cost of running them. Lobster and bollinger are not cheap - nor are mink lined slippers. 

The money the eu hand to us for using as they tell us to indeed does come from the uk taxpayer.

politicians really should stand strong and firm and get on with the job the electorate has asked them to do.

Not one bit chap - I've read so much information now. 

I'm a great believer in democracy - so for all the rights or wrongs here we are!!

 

Ah, it is as I thought - member states give money to the EU, which uses it for the running of the Empire (the same one that hasn't has its accounts signed off for many years), and then members states have to apply cap-in-hand for grants. So, it's a bit like an insurance company, or possibly a loan shark where Greece is concerned.

Meanwhile, I see Jean-Claude "The Emperor" Juncker is calling for the UK to exit his club ASAP.

 

 

[Barrykearley]

It's nothing like a loan shark @ian29gte - it's more like the arrangements at FIFA. 

[Chillidoggy]

But with no possibility of any fraudulent charges being brought.

[Barrykearley]

Not sure the terms of any pensions I have require me to agree to vote one way or another. What an utterly strange arrangement the kinnocks have...

[rocket63]

17 hours ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

You are entitled to your opinion and so am I. I purposely stayed away from this thread and never looked at it once since it started until today, because I didn't want to get involved in a pre-vote altercation. I won't contribute further, but just a clarification of the above point: 3 regions voted Remain: Scotland: 62%, London 60% and N. Ireland: 56%. The majority of the rest of England (and Wales) voted Leave. Many, like yourself would have correctly voted on principal about the EU, but I genuinely fear that many of the rest just voted on the Immigration card. I heard so many interviews with people saying they were voting Leave for just that reason. I don't think that is something to be proud of. Anyway, in other news... Liz Hurley will be pleased because she wants to see the reintroduction of 100W incandescent light bulbs!

The trouble with your opinion is that you chose to use a petty insult and broadbrush brexit voters in a small narrow minded characterisation which quite frankly is inflammatory.  Poor form fella. 

[100th_Idiot]

I've stayed out of this so far as (like the Scottish independence debate) it had a tendency to get personal and emotional which is not a good thing on a forum.

I'm sad at the outcome of the referendum. Personally wanted to remain within the EU as I felt the economic benefits outweighed the drawbacks. Yes the EU is frustrating and cumbersome and needs massive reform.

Still. Here we are. The vote has happened and brexit won the day. So the key question now is what happens next.

I think we have to be careful reading too much into individual statements by EU partner representatives in the immediate aftermath of the vote. There is shock and things will be said in the heat of the moment.

In the UK the prospect of a government led by BoJo and Gove does not fill me with glee. I hope some better alternatives win out but it is hard to see.

The reaction of EU partner countries to our exit will be very interesting. I have a feeling that the Germans will be pragmatic and the French will throw their toys out of the pram. We need all 27 members to agree to the terms so it will not be easy. I really hope Gove is not leading this. He has a poor track record of intransigence in negotiations.

 

Anyway. Forward we go to make the best of what we have.

[Barrykearley]

The Brexit vote was a real mash up of multidimensional opinions and thought

there are likely to be simply dozens of utterly differing views and opinions in this. All of which are completely right and correct to that individual or group of individuals.

the intolerant language used by some groups and individuals is distasteful. The alternative is we change our whole political system to that of a dictatorship if democracy is no longer acceptable.

Great Britain is still great - it's the land of the free with huge opportunity should you wish to grasp it.

Off to fill up the esprit with petrol !!

[C8RKH]

@Franjipane, I don't take anything said on this forum, on any subject matter personally, and I certainly do not take myself seriously, usually being the first to poke fun at myself and my belief's.  We've not been understanding each other, that is all. I have tried to tell you that your style of constantly posting up 3rd party clips from youtube, newspapers, and other media is not doing it for me, and that I would prefer to hear YOU put forward YOUR arguments - if anything, I've been trying to better understand YOUR position, not the position of many 3rd parties whom quite frankly, have links through funding or other routes with the EU.  I'm truly sorry if this approach has offended you. Rather than posting up 3rd party stuff, I do my research, frame my point of view and then post on here with quite a bit of detail to support that point of view. That takes effort, I guess I could just trawl for videos,reports, etc and just simply post them up to save time?

I have no problem with you doing your research, gathering facts and figures and then SUMMARISING THIS AND PRESENTING IT AS YOUR VIEW - instead you just post it up a link as a "so there" type of statement. So it is the approach I have been railing against and you have chosen not to modify it, as is your right by the way, and that is why we reach an impasse. Let's hope neither me or you are involved in the Brexit negotiations as it really will take a long time to reach consensus

Also, like a lot of Brexit supporters, I've refrained I believe from being triumphalist - as I said on an earlier post, within my household of 4 we were split 50:50 - so me sitting at the breakfast table smugly/triumphalist will hardly make matters any better, nor will being smug / triumphalist on here.The decision has been made, we need to move forward in a positive way. What I have seen though is a huge amount of bitterness, bile, name calling and worse from the Remain camp - just look at the attack on Boris yesterday when he was tying to get into a taxi. That is outrageous and certainly not a democratic response.

To be honest @franjipane, throwaways like this " Can't see it happen myself, Boris and friends are only going to look after the wealthiest. " don't add anything to the debate at all, just nothing, and what are they based on?  Both Labour and the Conservatists rely on wealthy donors and supporters, the Labour party is not just funded by socialist unions and many Labour supporters who are wealthy business leaders have been amply rewarded by peerages etc. It's time to grow up and move on from these petty type of mud slinging comments, this is not the 1920's, 1930's etc.

I think we just fundamentally support different things @franjipane - like your post praising Corbyn, my denouncing him - one of us is even out of kilter with his own supporters and party on this.

Your response to Barry above is also not fully true, like a lot of stuff, it is only part of the story as below:

"Barry, to say they are all un-elected is not true, We have elected representatives in the EU parliament and council. Likening the EU to communist China is mad.

What we need the government to do, which the leave campaign has failed to do so far, is give us a guarantee that they will replace the lost money from the EU."

You seem to be confusing the European Parliament and the European Commission, they are quite different entities and serve quite different roles. We have MEP's who we elect to the European Parliament, that is true. However, it is the European Commission, led by the President, Juncker, who are responsible for the strategic direction,management and governance of the EU and who are also responsible for deciding which laws are to be drafted, how they are drafted, and for allocating who gets what funding.  None of these people have been democratically elected by the citizens of the EU. Instead, each member state's government pushes forward 1 Commissioner who in turn then manage the 33,000 bureacrats that reside in the EU. As I've said before, you would expect these commissioners to be accountable to their sponsoring national government (to provide a semblance of democratic responsibility as the governments themselves were elected democratically) but, sadly, you would be wrong. They are in fact ONLY accountable to the EU president, a certain Mr. Juncker. So based on the information presented I will rebuke (I apologise for calling your earlier posts Bullshit) your response to Bary quoted above and say that actually, the EU Commission is un-elected - which is true and I would quite easily compare the what it acts, behaves and operates with the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China as they are both neither accountable, or held to account, by the democratic will of voters. As Barry points ouit the fact the Commission has not been able to find any reputable Audit Company to sign off it's accounts for many many years is an outstanding indictment of a failure of democratic accountability

You then say we need the government to give a guarantee that they will replace the lost money from the EU.  Why? Did we have any cast iron guarantees on any future monies from the EU? No. We would have been subject to the whims and budgets of the EU and only the money committed at this point would be safe. Not new monies. Also, without a negotiated settlement, which will cost us money if we want access to the EU market, it is currently impossible, I would argue, to determine what would be left on the table. You are just asking for an impossible guarantee and it just comes across as a whinge. Until we know the details of the settlement what you are asking for cannot be answered as we do not know how big the purse will be.

What irks me more than anything, is that we pride ourselves on being a democratic country. We have a vote, and now practically 85% of the posts on here from the side who lost have been negative or insulting or inferring that those who voted for winning side, even though they were in the majority, are stupid. I think it is time for people to grow up. Accept the will of the people and come together in a positive frame of mind to get the best settlement we can for Britain. That, I would strongly argue @franjipane, is how you maximise the potential to secure future funding for projects etc. and reduce the risk associated with the decision taken by the majority of the people. It's time to stop sniping and calling out the negatives, as the decision as been made, and time to start building a prosperous and secure future. Remember, Rome was not built in a day, but it was torn down in a day - to build something good takes time.

[march]

15 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Rome was not built in a day

Possibly not the best analogy when you look at the legend of Romulus and Remus and the creation of Rome:

When Romulus and Remus became adults, they decided to found a city where the wolf had found them. The brothers quarrelled over where the site should be and Remus was killed by his brother. This left Romulus the sole founder of the new city and he gave his name to it – Rome. 

Let's hope we don't follow their example. 

We didn't get Boris island so lets also hope we don't get Borisland

[C8RKH]

Lol - I was talking metaphorically re Rome, but thought it might be a better example than say Skelmersdale or Welwyn Garden City.

Is Borisland like Flamingoland in Yorkshire, only without the cute cuddly animals?

[C8RKH]

Interesting comments from Poland and quite a lot more constructive than many coming out from the bureaucrats in EU HQ. I hope that we will see a realisation across many EU member states that what the UK have primarily rejected is the formation of the EU "Super State" and the resulting oversight that this would bring. If we were to get back to basics with a new treaty around trade, you know, the formation of a common market, without the trapping and embellishments including closer political harmony and ties, proposed EU military force and EU courts etc. then I would expect an overall substantive majority from within the UK to stay, or to apply to join, this NEW EU treaty.

A lot has been spoken about immigration and the freedom of movement for workers, I don't think I have heard anyone on this forum say they were against that, but as is so often the case, the real issue is lost in translation and it was not the freedom of movement for work that has caused the reaction, but the, and we need to be honest here, the smaller issue of people coming here with no work nor means to support themselves and just expecting to be handed a better life for nothing. It's funny, a lot of talk about "small minded little englanders not liking Jonny foreigner", well, there were a lot of non white 1st and 2nd generation immigrants who voted Brexit as they were fed up of those coming here and demanding stuff for free - when they arrived they arrived with little other than an aspiration and willingness to work to build a better life. And boy did they do that and boy have they contributed and boy has the whole of the UK benefited from their coming and their positive can do / will do attitude.

Poland is the biggest beneficiary of EU funds, which are transforming the country. Warsaw wants to remain, but it will use Brexit to push for a looser EU based on the single market.

"The conclusion is obvious: We need a new European treaty," said Jaroslaw Kaczynski, head of the governing PiS party and the country's most powerful politician.

[ChrisJ]

In my view:

• The EU has lost the UK through its refusal to give Cameron a proper reforming deal - so that's the country with the 3rd largest military and fifth largest economy, that the EU has lost through it's intransigence. Says a lot for the EU.
• Cameron has lost the referendum by telling us originally that he had some demands (quite good ones in my view). Then chucking all of these demands out of the window, and pretending that the scraps he got was a proper deal. Even worse was his repeatedly running down this country and our ability to do survive without the EU - in so doing lost all credibility with me, and I guess very many others. He has gained a some of my respect back by immediately resigning, however I would have liked an apology for this running down of the UK, although I guess that it is a bit too early for him to do this. 
• Remainians lost the referendum by coming up with even more bizarre things that would happen if Leave won the day, and no point during did anyone actually say anything positive about the EU. I did ask on here, but kept being directed - as @C8RKH has pointed out - to 3rd party links, whereas I wanted to hear/see an individuals point of view.

I voted leave for the reasons of sovereignty. Yes the Westminster MPs might be useless and corrupt,, now and in the future, but they are OUR useless and corrupt MPs, who WE will have voted into office, and therefore that is OUR problem. Hopefully the MPs will now understand that THEY work for US and must put OUR country first.

[franjipane]

C8, re read my post you quoted and took issue with, I didn't say commission, I said council.

if you don't like my posting style don't read my posts.

But don't say I haven't posted opinions, I've posted loads and you've even agreed with some. I post the sources along with opinions so people can see I'm not just making shit up. Seems like a silly thing to get worked up about. 

I've been nothing but polite, just trying to have a discussion while you've ended up resorting to name calling, misquoting, and seemingly having an issue with my style of posting including too many sources. 

Think we are done here. Life is too short. 

[Chillidoggy]

Thank God for that.

[Sparky]

Woohoo! I'm breaking out the gin.

[franjipane]

Already had a cheeky mojito here mate. Enjoying the sun.

whos out in their cars today/tomorrow!

[Barrykearley]

 

[C8RKH]

German Chancellor Angela Merkel has said the European Union has "no need to be particularly nasty in any way" in the negotiations with Britain about its exit from the bloc.

She insisted that deterring other countries from leaving the EU should not be a priority in the talks.

And she added she was not in favour of pushing for a speedy withdrawal.

Britain narrowly voted to end its membership in a historic referendum last Thursday.

Mrs Merkel was speaking after several EU foreign ministers - including Germany's - had urged Britain to quickly implement its exit.

"It shouldn't take forever, that's right, but I would not fight for a short timeframe," she said.

She added that she was seeking an "objective, good" climate in the talks with Britain, which "must be conducted properly".

 

I think the UK, Germany, Poland, Sweden, Greece and Denmark could get along just fine based on some of the more sensible comments that are now coming from their elected leaders, rather than the inflammatory nonsense from their non elected EU reps. We could actually see the EU President and the non elected commission get its wings clipped with a shift in emphasis possibly back to the elected EU Parliament. I think that would be a great positive outcome.

[C8RKH]

31 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

 

Bloody hell Barry just watched that and good job it was not broadcast on Wednesday night as the vote to leave would have been much higher. No idea what is true or not, but it shows whilst UK news was focusing only on the negatives of leaving, many in Europe are looking at positives and how the UK will only benefit. What a contrast in approach and views.

 

[C8RKH]

Some European newspapers put an interesting perspective on things and Sturgeon I hope is taking note, as she could take Scotland independent and lose both the UK and the EU safety nets as the latter one may not exist when she gets there!

In Italy, Corriere della Sera's Antonio Polito says the EU must show "humility" in addressing public concern about its policies.

Spain's El Mundo focuses on the harm it sees Brexit doing to the European economy, but is sure that EU-UK relations will remain strong.

In the Dutch NRC Next tabloid former European Commission official Luuk van Middelaar calls on European leaders to address "disillusionment with the EU among their own voters", by strengthening EU border controls and reinforcing the eurozone, he says.

De Telegraaf's front page suggests that the EU fears the Netherlands will be next to seek an exit referendum.
A poll it carried out shows most voters fearing exit would be "bad for our wallets" and reduce the country's role on the world stage, but their lead over "Nexit" supporters is narrow.

Liberation's editorial also puts the blame for Brexit firmly on the EU, which it says ignored public discontent, with its "tortuous path towards a bright utopia", and "finished the job with its soft response to the social crisis and irresolution over the migration crisis". Liberation's solution is for the European Commission to cede power to the European Parliament, which can then make the voice of the people heard and "ward off the democratic crisis".

Tageszeitung warns that the vote was a revolt "against those on high", and that populist parties in Europe will now use the referendum threat to put pressure on their own governments.
"The European Union is now at a turning point, and if the German government thinks it can continue just like before, it could bring this Europe crashing down around their ears," it concludes.
 

[Barrykearley]

One of the biggest think tanks in Germany has published an article stating that uk businesses will outperform Eu ones now.........

it's a funny old game 

[Chillidoggy]

Looks like the skids are under Comrade Corbyn. 

[Barrykearley]

New guy required

will a Stalinist leader make them happy - seems that could well be what the people want.