Brexit

[Kimbers]

It's wierd. It seems like all the "Leave" support in the press has gone to ground. Is this a conspiracy?

Yesterday the FTSE recovered by 3%. a huge rise. When it dropped 3% everyone said it was a Brexit Rout, yet now, when it recovers I cannot find a single article by googling it. Anyone would think some people are blocking it....Google....because they are Eu based or something!

[CHANGES]

Yes  I am thinking TM would make a PM ... always been impressed by her direct approach as home secretary..  BOJO is a likable character with more ability than he projects.. But what we are needing is a PM who can put together a task force Cabinet which is not going to be rattled by the conspiracies of the BBC the EU and other media forums. In fact they should be prepared to cut the BBC loose on their present  performance .. 

The constant undermining of the democratically reached vote is despicable by a nationally funded broadcasting department.  

conspiracy ?  Yes seems more and more like it ...

[Andyww]

22 minutes ago, jonwat said:

 

BBC news is staffed almost entirely by ex Guardian journalists. 

Yes, in Broadcasting House you will find the Guardian all over the place and no other newspaper.

Speaking of which, its beyond the pale this morning, including a headline which states that since Brexit its OK to be racist in Britain. 

No comments allowed on that article. But in general the comments in the G are thankfully in complete disagreement with the articles recently. Toynbee always gets a pasting when a year or so ago they were all fawning in agreement.

[Kimbers]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3663147/What-Leave-don-t-MPs-understand-RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-says-Remain-s-refusal-accept-referendum-result-shows-contempt-democracy.html

[USAndretti42]

Never took you for a Daily Mail reader, Tony.

Even though I voted to remain, I hope there isn't another referendum on the subject.  The campaigning by both sides was awful and the reporting pretty poor (although Radio 4 seemed fair to me).  Too many lies and attempts to mislead with no one presenting a plan for leaving or the benefits of staying.  I think Mervyn King got it right when he said, 'They (voters) didn't like to be told that if they were to vote Leave they would be idiots. And if you say to someone: "Well you're an idiot if you don't agree with me", then you are not likely to bring them in your direction'.

Now let's get on with life and get the exit sorted out although I believe the politicians will make a hash of that too and then try to sell it as a triumph.

[andydclements]

3 hours ago, Kimbers said:

It's wierd. It seems like all the "Leave" support in the press has gone to ground. Is this a conspiracy?

Yesterday the FTSE recovered by 3%. a huge rise. When it dropped 3% everyone said it was a Brexit Rout, yet now, when it recovers I cannot find a single article by googling it. Anyone would think some people are blocking it....Google....because they are Eu based or something!

The net drop over the last few days is still quite significant, thankfully nowhere near as much as it was initially, but it's still a lot lower than before the referendum result, so I think the BBC are given two possible stories, it's not as bad as it was, or, it's better than the worst point. They certainly couldn't put it as a good news item, it's like saying the fact a fire has been put out is a good news item, the net result is a loss.

 

What would be interesting now is: How many of those who voted (either way) feel they've been lied to by at least one of the campaigns. I don't think it would immediately alter the choices of the people (partially because some people voted for strange reasons that never really existed), but it would be interesting to know whether the whole campaign, result, reactions etc has dented our belief in the honesty and openness of politicians.

[lotusesprit1]

where to get the news from RT seems more impartial than the BBC! The BBC are really annoying me recently they are talking us into a recession and there contempt for the democratic result pains me.

Is there an easily available source of up to date impartial news?

 

 

 

[basalte]

Interesting to see so many here hacked off with BBC bias against Leave campaigners. You may be surprised in this particular instance to learn that I unreservedly agree with you. 

The key concept here providing a fertile ground for that bias  is "the establishment" composition of media jobs: comprising Public School usually Oxbridge-educated "born to rule" classes. (For example, BBC Broadcasters David and Jonathan Dimbleby , the 2 sons of BBC Broadcaster Richard Dimbleby. BBC Broadcaster Dan Snow , the son of BBC Broadcaster Peter Snow, and so on). They instinctively recoil at anyone who expresses a view threatening to their belief system and instinctive elitism .  For example (I like to give examples), BBC Chief Political Correspondent Laura Kuenssberg`s brother is a senior civil servant in the Department for Communities and Local Government and her sister is UK High Commissioner to Mozambique . Hey they are soooo down with the struggling workers! They are easy targets for right-wing populists of course but I am shooting from the Left and think the BBC is just as biased towards the Right - Public School Oxbridge educated Cameron`s "In" Campaign.      

In like manner I have noted  BBC bias against Jeremy Corbyn -(the only anti-establishment candidate in the campaign who truthfully said that he was 7.5 out of ten in favour of the EU) . During the last local elections the overall vote share :  Tory 30 %.  Corbyn`s Labour  : 31% . I swear to you that I looked in vain on the BBC election results  for any mention of that share .

Yesterday the Blairite plotters who moved against JC showed contempt for the hundreds of thousands of ordinary Labour members who voted for JC as leader.  (trying to protect their old pal Blair against Chilcot by subbing someone who won`t cause trouble by asking if he`s now a War Criminal).   

That idea of "contempt for the public"-I think that it may be ringing some bells with you ?

Anyway a "new referendum" idea is another aspect of that Establishment contempt and I'm agree it looks pretty silly.

What is a more genuine "threat" to our leaving the EU is that it HAS NEVER BEEN OUR DECISION TO MAKE to take GB out of the EU. The legal constitutional position is absolutely clear.  If you voted Leave it will be our MPs who have the power to take Britain out of the EU. They will have to vote to repeal the Act OF 1972 taking us in . Parliament will be put to the vote probably after a new Tory leader has been elected.

Of course you may feel very angry at that state of affairs but there it is.

As far as I am aware a majority of MPs want us to stay in the EU. It is THEIR decision to leave or stay, not ours.

My contentious view is that Bo Jo never wanted us to leave the EU (for examples see his pronouncements previous to the referendum) and is deeply troubled by the poisoned chalice that Cameron has inadvertently dumped in his lap.

Expect Boris to huff and puff about Trafalgar, the Battle of Britain etc etc but there will be multifarious manoeuvring prior to Parliament`s vote either to gain a vote that will keep us in the EU against your wishes  or a minimal terms of Brexit that may be hammered out to give the maximum impression of action but will be a quasi - stay in the EU. 

Nothing `s ever simple......   

 

       

[C8RKH]

By jove, politicians lie and the media is baised. Whatever next?

And after Indyref here in Scotland that was not totally surprising and so why are people shocked and surprised now?

Corbyn was not being genuine by the way when he said 7.5 out of 10. Genuine would have seen him mark it well below 5, otherwise why has he spent the last 20+ years riling against it?

The key point is that referendum is ADVISORY. It is not a clear mandate. It is not an act of law. It is not an inevitability. This is lost on most voters, on both sides, and is certainly lost on the complete bubble brains like Mr. Juncker. Hence he would stop calling for the UK to take action immediately re Article 50 and understand that right now, we are not necessarily in a position to invoke Article 50.

The whole reaction. The whole toys out of the pram and 3 year old tantrum in the supermarket aisle thing has really saddened me. I am now of the strong line of thought that actually, democracy and it's rights and freedoms and benefits are totally wasted on the average voter. May be a dictator would be a better option, at least then we would have a quick decision and action with no whinging, whining, cringing and crying. I think you get my gist.

[CHANGES]

5 hours ago, Kimbers said:

 

It's wierd. It seems like all the "Leave" support in the press has gone to ground. Is this a conspiracy?

Yesterday the FTSE recovered by 3%. a huge rise. When it dropped 3% everyone said it was a Brexit Rout, yet now, when it recovers I cannot find a single article by googling it.

 

 

4 hours ago, Andyww said:

Speaking of which, its beyond the pale this morning, including a headline which states that since Brexit its OK to be racist in Britain. 

These are the same sort of tactical press releases or conspicuous lack of, that were use by the stay in supporter before the vote... So the fact that they are still on going shows that an organised movement is orchestrating them in an attempt to undermine the democratically arrived at vote... It is almost like they are trying to create a civil unrest by stealthy means so not to be held responsible for the outcome which they would blame on Brexit in an attempt to overturn..

The more information that is released the more it seems to be tainted with a conspiracy .  It is a very clever way of getting people to question why they voted out and then saying that every one who voted out was mislead..  The true core issues are being eroded by contradictory reports which have in most cases no relevance other than to confuse and misrepresent. 

The vote showed what the public expected of its elected representatives, it is up to them to provide it.  if they do not then we have the option to vote them out of office at the next GE.  That is how is stands at present , BUT with the EU having such a great influence on the way things are at present you could be forgiven for thinking that they want to put a stop to that ... In their ideal world everything in the EU is governed from Brussels by an un-elected body who has control over 1 army..  At this point elections and referendums will have little  relevance other than to make people think they are part of something..   OR HAD WE ALREADY ARRIVED AT MOST OF THIS WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING.. 

The Brexit vote caught them all on the hop. They thought the majority of the British public had been conditioned enough to think their way.   How wrong they were ..  The problem as I am beginning to see it is, the whole referendum may have been a sham. The idea was to get the vote to stay in , which would quell all the criticism on EU policies and open the door to the next phase.  The UK was always the biggest winger on the EU , get them to vote in and the rest will just follow.  They mis-calculated so the interference and slow assassination of the vote out begins...  Sounds scary does it not..    

41 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

May be a dictator would be a better option, at least then we would have a quick decision and action with no whinging, whining, cringing and crying. I think you get my gist.

   Frightening analogy , but surly just voting stay in would have eventually done that,  or we could of surrendered on 16 July 1940..   It appears we still have some independent spirit left...         

[Barrykearley]

Spot on mr @changes 

this has been coming a very long time

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_von_Coudenhove-Kalergi

Juncker and merkel have won awards in his very name!!

[Barrykearley]

Oh dear mr Corbyn - I thought you were great for the Labour Party.

just goes to show how disconnected with their electorate they really are....

[basalte]

Well I note from your useful link  that someone called Adolf Hitler called " Coundenhove Kalergi" " a bastard",  so in my book he must have been doing something right !

.....seems it was probably something to do with Peace and Understanding....(I understand that Mr. Hitler was not very taken with those concepts  for a start....)

[Jacques]

If the UK politicians take a revote thereby rejecting the peoples voice on the first no, then there is NO democracy in the UK. Simple as that. A no is a no.

How embarrassing that it have to come to this. To even talk about it. This clearly shows that there have never been a plan to make democracy in the ec, but a reborn ditatorship. Just call it by it's rightful name.

Kind regards,

Jacques.

[march]

Getting bored of the repeated emails to sign the referendum petition from Change.org.

[Barrykearley]

23 minutes ago, Jacques said:

If the UK politicians take a revote thereby rejecting the peoples voice on the first no, then there is NO democracy in the UK. Simple as that. A no is a no.

This is exactly the point - if they ask again - frankly they are only as good as a rapist - just not with sex - our democracy instead

[waofner]

maybe it is your democratic right to lean back and re-think your options?

maybe you desire to be be asked to vote again because of new circumstances?

maybe you made a decition on something in your life which you regret now?

maybe................

in my opinion, to be asked can't be bad in any case.

[Vanya]

You have a fair point, but let's be frank - the campaigns of both sides prior to the referendum were scattershot at best. I barely got in any raw facts - most of the debate was centred around feelings, not hard figures (credit goes to the TLF:ers who did raise the bar and stick to facts).

However, if you are asked again, with a nudge and a wink (read: glitzy, one-sided, media campaign highlighting the milk and honey future should you choose the status quo) - then it's not exactly cricket is it?

[USAndretti42]

6 hours ago, andydclements said:

What would be interesting now is: How many of those who voted (either way) feel they've been lied to by at least one of the campaigns. I don't think it would immediately alter the choices of the people (partially because some people voted for strange reasons that never really existed), but it would be interesting to know whether the whole campaign, result, reactions etc has dented our belief in the honesty and openness of politicians.

The £350 million a week was a lie throughout the leave campaign.  The claim that every household would be £4000 worse off was not exactly a lie but a projection so far into the future that it could hardly be called a fact.  Various other statistics given about how much EU rules cost British business and how much foreign workers push down wages were shown to be highly questionable but who needs experts?

A lousy campaign by both sides, in my opinion.

[Barrykearley]

I'd choose the short term pain for long term gain. Again.

we need to dismantle the eu beast - the project is a clumbersome cost ineffective undemocratic mess. They won't reform themselves as they are as bad as Fifa. 

We do not need a load of overpaid Eurocrats for us to sell each other stuff. None of it makes sense and we have simply let the politicians sleep walk us into the position we are in now. 

If you believe the media hype, most probably don't, and now the world hasn't immediately ended - frankly the result would most likely be just the same. The defiance within large swathes of the country doesn't seem to be changing. Even with these isolated horrible incidents which are being massively overblown. The media are an absolute disgrace.

When we were in the football (remember that !)  - they were fast enough to report a football fan throwing a chair - but never bothered to report the riots in other areas due to migration issues.

the propaganda machine is worse now than in ww2 or the height of the Cold War ! But now other media is available to help balance it  

[910Esprit]

2 hours ago, Jacques said:

If the UK politicians take a revote thereby rejecting the peoples voice on the first no, then there is NO democracy in the UK. Simple as that. A no is a no.

How embarrassing that it have to come to this. To even talk about it. This clearly shows that there have never been a plan to make democracy in the ec, but a reborn ditatorship. Just call it by it's rightful name.

Kind regards,

Jacques.

The Danish government have form on this!  The people provided the 'wrong' answer to allow ratification of the Maastrict  treaty, so the referendum was rerun the following year with a number of opt outs granted, the 'right' answer was then obtained).   A certain amount of rioting then ensued.....   

[waofner]

11 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

I'd choose the short term pain for long term gain. Again.

we need to dismantle the eu beast - the project is a clumbersome cost ineffective undemocratic mess. They won't reform themselves as they are as bad as Fifa. 

We do not need a load of overpaid Eurocrats for us to sell each other stuff. None of it makes sense and we have simply let the politicians sleep walk us into the position we are in now. 

If you believe the media hype, most probably don't, and now the world hasn't immediately ended - frankly the result would most likely be just the same. The defiance within large swathes of the country doesn't seem to be changing. Even with these isolated horrible incidents which are being massively overblown. The media are an absolute disgrace.

When we were in the football (remember that !)  - they were fast enough to report a football fan throwing a chair - but never bothered to report the riots in other areas due to migration issues.

the propaganda machine is worse now than in ww2 or the height of the Cold War ! But now other media is available to help balance it  

maybe there was no ww3 because of the eu

maybe you have to see the eu as a peace-project

maybe the economic benefits are wellcome but not the main point

i my opinion peace is far more important than anything else.

i did no major research, but i think no war for 70 years in europe is unique..........

[Andyww]

The £350 million a week was, for reasons I mentioned in previous posts, an understatement of what we lose out on, owing to the EU. I dont know why the remainers are still banging on about this.

The fact is, our entire period of membership of the EU has been riddled with lies from them. For example the Lisbon Treaty which Gordon Brown rubber-stamped. That was sold as a "tidying-up exercise" whereas it fundamentally changed the nature of the EU and laid down the foundations for a super-state.

[Barrykearley]

Neither side are telling the truth though really are they - that's the problem.

maybe it's from the film which name escapes me

"you can't handle the truth"

[C8RKH]

18 minutes ago, waofner said:

i did no major research, but i think no war for 70 years in europe is unique..........

@waofner saying that no war in Europe is down to the EU is about as useful and true as saying there are no little green men in space because non have landed and said hello on earth!

Europe and her people and land were decimated by 11 years of totally destructive wars in 30 years from 1914 to 1944. A whole generation had almost been wiped out. Peace was desperately needed and wanted by all and the economic miracle started to take route in the mid 50's and boomed in the 60's. Long before the common market was a twinkle in a bureaucrats eye.

I would strongly argue that the cold war, with thousands of nuclear warheads pointed in all directions at and from Europe did more for lasting piece. WW3 would have been an unwinnable war.

20 years of economic boom enabled and encouraged the common market which fueled further prosperity across Europe for another 25 years.

It only started to go wrong around 10 years ago when the bureaucrats of the EU hoodwinked the population of Europe into going down a federal superstate path.

If this route does not change, I can actually see a war in some parts of Europe as a result! Now there's a prediction for you.