Brexit

[pete]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=thonk

[pete]

interesting article

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/legal-advice-saying-brexit-can-be-reversed-shows-theresa-mays-huge-strategic-error-on-article-50/ar-AAtePrZ?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout

[Andyww]

This article repeats the usual bollocks that no deal will immediately result in tariffs. This is not the case.

The UK could (and should) state that at least initially, there will be no tariffs at all on any imported goods from the EU, but reserves the right to impose in the future. The ball is then in the EU countries court as to whether to slap tariffs on UK exports. They are very unlikely to do so because starting a trade war is the last thing they want, especially the Germans with their car exports.

The UK should leave now, there is no point in delaying. State no tariffs as above and also (controversial I know) state that free movement of labour to continue, such that movement based on jobs and no benefits of any kind will be paid, including in-work benefits thereby eliminating those who come to freeload as in the past. 

[oilmagnet477]

As someone who voted to remain (for various reasons but the principle one being that I knew this kind of crap would happen - and run on and on and on and on, and cost the UK a fortune to resolve), all I want to happen now is for us to leave NOW!

Forget negotiations - period - it is very clearly evident that the EU do not want to negotiate and never will - they will always blame us for any failure in talks.

Post the Brexit vote, ALL politicians from the UK and the EU have shown their true colours. I'm now firmly in the leave camp.

As Richard Branson would say - Screw it, let's do it!

If we'd left the EU immediately after the vote, I'm guessing a lot of these troublesome issues would be well on the way to resolution by now.

Business and money is actually what drives change - politics just gets in the f***ing way!

[C8RKH]

I actually do not think that your post was that controversial @Andyww.  I think the government needs to take a step back and then a deep breath. Then, it needs to re-engage with the British people in a more open and honest way and show some of the pragmatism, and leadership, that the UK is recognised for bringing fro  time to time. It would also flush out the games being played by the EU. Something along the lines of this:

1. Freedom of movement to and from the UK for work will not be impeded by the UK government as part of Brexit. We recognise and value the contribution to our economy that European workers bring and we guarantee entry for any EU citizen that has secured permanent employment within the UK.  After 24 months of permanent employment and proven tax and NI receipts the EU citizen will have the earned the right to stay in the UK and to accrue access to benefits in the UK as per any other UK citizen.  The EU citizen or there dependents will not be entitled to any benefits in the first 24 months, with the exception of access to the NHS for free at the point of need medical services through their NI contributions and access to schooling for their children.  Whilst in the UK, EU citizens will be subject to all UK laws and will be treated as an equal with UK citizens in the eyes of the UK courts and legal system.  The UK court of law will be THE court for the UK and anyone residing in the UK either lawfully or unlawfully.

I think this would satisfy most people in the UK re correct immigration controls, no need for quota's as it is based on them having secured a job first, and it will stop people coming here for benefits surfing as they will get nothing for the first 2 years. And I mean, nothing.  

2. The UK recognises the importance of trade and a strong economy both for the UK and for the members of the EU. As a result, upon Brexit the UK will undertake to and guarantee to adhere to EU standards for the production of goods. As a result, the UK will not propose any trade tariffs on any EU goods to ensure that trade continues to flow uninterrupted with minimal impact to both UK and EU companies and the lowest additional costs possible to maintain both UK and EU global efficiency and competitiveness.  The UK reserves the right to impose matching tariffs on all goods imported from the EU if the EU decides to impose tariffs on UK goods. This includes the imposition of VAT on imported goods from or to the EU.

As a good will gesture, the UK government agrees to pay the EU a fixed fee of £xbn (I would suggest this is 1 or 2) a year for the benefit of this access on a level playing field.

This clearly puts the ball in the EU court with respect to how they want to trade with us going forwards and if tariffs and therefore job losses etc are a direct result then it can be pointed that this is a result of EU action.

3. The UK recognises that the current EU budget was created for a term, and that the budget assumed full membership of all countries for that term and that each country would contribute their due payments during the term.  As a result, the UK government has calculated that the outstanding monies owed to the EU to cover the budget term is £xxbn and this will be paid as follows:  £xxbn per year for the duration of the budget term.  In addition, the UK government has calculated that ongoing liabilities (e.g. pensions for UK EU servants only) are £xbn and that the UK's share of EU assets is £xbn.  The UK government will pay/receive the balance on Brexit.  This fullfills the UK's ongoing financial obligations to the EU.

This sets out very clearly our obligations and shows we are playing with a fair bat. Again, if the EU disagrees then they need to publish fully their calculations and justify any difference.

4. The UK recognises the stability within the region delivered through close co-operation of military and police forces and services.  The UK wishes to fully reconfirm its commitment to NATO, the primary alliance for the protection of the region and its states and will fully commit to deliver on the percentage of GDP expenditure  obligation on military forces and to fully support all activities and missions that NATO lawfully undertakes. In return, the UK expects a similar commitment from the EU member states that are a part of NATO.  The UK will not become a member of, or play a part in, any dedicated pan EU military force or military organisation that is controlled by the EU.

This makes it very clear that we will support and defend our comrades in the EU, but that we will do it as an independent member of NATO.

I've never really understood why the UK Government and it's ministers can not come up with a series of simple and clear statements, as above, that clearly sets out our stall. Claims the morale high ground. States what we are prepared to accept and what we are not. And explains the rationale behind it.  To me, if the Tories did this it would force Corbyn and his Labour cronies off the fence, kill off the un-elected numpties like Blair, Brown and Clegg and provide a very clear signal to the EU that we were are not prepared to engage in stupid political games or points scoring. It should be presented to the world as a reasoned, rational and FAIR position that is clear and unambiguous.  Then let's see how the EU digests that and how they respond and then the naysayers will see just what a twisted little self centred group those politicians are in Brussels.

[Andyww]

Agree with all except point 1.

I dont see any reason why non-UK citizens should ever get any benefits at all. That should be the deal, if people want to come to work then fine, but no benefits.

If they wish to apply for UK citizenship using the mechanism that already exists then they will become eligible for benefits.

BTW I think Tim Martin from Wetherspoons should be put in charge of Brexit. He seems to be one of the few people with any sense, he was stating pretty much your above, on This Week the other day.

[oilmagnet477]

Imminent news flash:

"C8 to replace David Davis as Brexit Secretary"

if non UK workers are only here because of the fact that they have a job, then (other than health care - well we want them fit to work don't we lol!) WHY do they need benefits. If they can't afford to come here without benefits they shouldn't be coming at all.

[C8RKH]

The 24 month gap to benefits will be to cover things like unemployment benefit/housing benefit/etc. We want a system that is fair. So, if you have been here working for 2 years, paying taxes and generally contributing to our society and growth then you should gain access to the system of support if you need it in the future. You could argue sensibly that they have earned the right through their taxable contributions. At the end of the day we want the UK to be seen as a fair society do we not?

By ensuring NO access to benefits for 24 months (or any other defined period - say 36, 48 or even 60 months) you have created an immediate and hard barrier to social benefit surfing through immigration as they same rule would or could apply to anyone who wants to come here, not just from the EU.

By the way, if i was to be totally honest, I'd apply the same rule to UK nationals - you cannot get most UK benefits until you have worked for 2 years plus (the exception would be medical based benefits - so NHS and access to disability benefits, carer benefits - again we want a fair society where people who can work, work, and those that cannot through medical conditions etc. are supported fairly by society - I think we all want to put an end to the sciving buggers who believe a life on benefits is a right!).

And whilst I am on the subject I would scrap totally unemployment benefit. There should be no benefit to being unemployed.  In it's place I would create a Community Fund Support Payment. So if you are unemployed, your community will support you through their taxes, but in return, you need to give something back to your community. So that means you would do a form of community service.  Let's say in return for your Community Fund Support Payment you would need to do 25 hours of work within the community each week. So that could be anything that the local community (e.g. Local Authority) needed you to do - litter picking, general tidying up of the community, community gardening for those who need it (elderly, disabled, etc), chewing gum removal, graffiti removal, anything that would benefit the community. Imagine how self policing would work with things like littering if people realised THEY could end up having to fix the problem themselves.  By saying 25 hours a week, that could be 5 hours a day Mon-Fri so those with kids are not excused as they can do it when the kids are at school!

In order to create a better society we need a society that supports each other. So by all means go after the corporations and the wealthy to cut down on tax avoidance and keep the tax take up. But also go after the lazy feckers who want the life of riley to. We are all in this together and there should be no such thing as free money.

That way, we can increase NHS expenditure and welfare spending as it will be better targeted at the people who really need it - the sick, the disabled, the people with long term conditions.  Scrounging a living off the state when you are perfectly physically and mentally able to work should be made to be seen as a truly despicable way of living and it should be seen as "stealing" from the vulnerable so encourage people to dob in those who do it. It time to stop being weak and feeble and tolerant, and time to start to out the boot in.

Same with gypsies. You want a life on the open road, that is fine.  But you need to be registered and you will be held to account for the mess you create and leave behind when you camp somewhere and you will be registered for tax.  Don't play by the rules then we will give you a default tax bill of £xxxxx to be paid in full every year or we take your vehicles away. Sick of the few believing they are different and do not have to play by the same rules as everyone else - rich or poor, corporation or gypsy, we should treat everyone the same and all should be subject to the law of the land.

Rant over. Feel great now. hahaha....

[Chillidoggy]

"C8 to replace David Davis as Brexit Secretary"

He's got my vote.

[pete]

Ditto. Why do we let the people ,who got us into this in the first place , negotiate a way out  when it is not in their best interests

[oilmagnet477]

C8, you could call it 'National Service' and it would apply to EVERYONE claiming to be 'unemployed' - wonder how many claimants do 'work' for cash on the side as well as claiming benefits? Keep them busy and maybe they wouldn't have the time......

Mind you that would probably infringe on their human rights!

[MPx]

I'm all for a lot more of this gung ho stuff above, but can see a potential issue with the trade tariffs statements.  So we say no tariffs on EU stuff but reserve the right for tit for tat if they decide to tariff our exports.  So they tariff bond trades or something which we do nearly all of ... do we then hit German cars or what?  Our economy is mostly service sector ... most of what we bring in is physical goods.  Not clear how tit for tat works??? 

[pete]

The EU have said that if Catalonia declares independence from Spain they will be expelled so perhaps we should declare independence from Scotland and then maybe they would expel us.

[C8RKH]

I think @pete that is the most cunningest of cunning plans. I like it. 

@MPx I'm not proposing to be gung ho. Just clearly and calmly setting out a position which is fair, balanced and reasonable. The response from the EU I am sure will be all bluster and bullshit and I do believe it will show their hand once and for all. And that hand is that they will do everything in their power to delay and obfuscate around Brexit as they do not want it to happen. Regardless of the deal we get they have to ensure we suffer as a result to send out a clear message to everyone in the club that leaving is not a good option. Anyone who does not believe this little fact is quite possibly, in my very humble opinion, deluded or in denial.

Rather than being all gung ho my approach would be one of calmness and fairness. Command the higher ground and get a better position for the battle ahread.

Catalonia has the potential to wreak far more havoc on the EU than Brexit. What if the Catalans defy Madrid and the Spanish constitution and take their case for self rule to the EU court of human rights? How can they then argue against the will of a people who voted by over 90% in a referendum for self rule without breaching their human rights? Surely at the very least a new referendum woukd be neefed to be legally held to confirm the will of the people? Madrid would have a hissy fit at the outside interference and would refuse to recognise the ruling of the EUCoHR.  The EU themselves woukd be loathe to punish Madrid as Catalonia splitting off opens up huge cans of worms elsewhere in France, Italy, etc. This is a potential doomsday scenario for the EU as then who else would step forward to be next to declare independence?

The Scots can't as in their case a majority vote for independence does not yet exist. And if Catalonia is expelled from the EU then the YES vote in Scotland would collapse as the Plan B of the "EU would save us" would be dead in the water.

One final point. The EU has ruled I believe that Luxemburg's sweetener deals with Amazon etc were unlawful. Can someone confirm for me if these were the same deals Junkers approved and waved through when in power in Luxemburg? And if they are, why is he not being investigated fully and held to account for the hundreds of millions in lost tax receipts?  Does being enrolled in the club mean you get a new Teflon coat?

[oilmagnet477]

Mike,

What we have forgotten is that we import WAY more than we Export (EU wise) BUT most of it we don't need to import. For example, during the (ridiculous) period of milk quotas, we were still not 100% self sufficient in milk and milk products.

Our dairy industry in the UK is on its knees and doesn't need to be. Same for much else. Ignoring much of the tech that we import (mainly from outside the EU), how badly would we really suffer (long term) if we 'looked after our own' and said F Off to everything that we COULD easily produce at home instead of importing it

[Barrykearley]

Fruit and veg is going to rot in the fields in the first season where they stop eu migrant workers.

should be a nice wake up call moment for our politicians when looking at the unemployment figures !!! Guess what we could get these spongers doing 

[Andyww]

15 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Can someone confirm for me if these were the same deals Junkers approved and waved through when in power in Luxemburg? 

They are only focusing on Amazon, a deal Juncker denies having had anything to do with.

Amazon dont actually make that much profit. The massive ones are Ebay and Paypal who do all their invoicing from Luxembourg. The press seem to have ignored these.

[Geoffers]

9 minutes ago, Andyww said:

The strange thing is they are only focusing on Amazon, a deal Juncker denies having had anything to do with.

Amazon dont actually make that much profit. The massive ones are Ebay and Paypal who do all their invoicing from Luxembourg. The press seem to have ignored these.

No they haven't

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/markets/article-4971226/Ebay-pays-just-1-6m-tax-1bn-sales-UK.html

[Andyww]

Excellent that they have caught up just yesterday. Only 10 years too late. Hopefully somethign will be done. They didnt mention Juncker in the article but should have done.

[Chillidoggy]

10 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

Fruit and veg is going to rot in the fields in the first season where they stop eu migrant workers.

should be a nice wake up call moment for our politicians when looking at the unemployment figures !!! Guess what we could get these spongers doing 

Is that why i can't buy tomatos, peppers,, sprouts etc that are grown in the U.K.? They can't get anyone to pick them?

 

[C8RKH]

No its because we subsidise Spanish and other farmers to the hilt so they can sell them cheaper despite them havibg to be transported.

A lot to be said for focusing on eating what we can grow. Provides a rich variety of fruit and veg and cuts down trVel miles for the food taking a lot of lorries off the road.

I woukd personally encourage and demand counciks give up spare land for more allotments to encourage people to fend for themselves. Good exercise and good wholesome food.

[Chillidoggy]

My wife came home with packets of brussels sprouts from Morocco the other day. How does that work?

Couple that with the fact we've got the largest hydroponics operation for growing fruit and veg in the UK right on our doorstep, but 90% of the tomatoes and peppers on the local Tesco shelves come from the Netherlands, or Spain.

[C8RKH]

I'm going to fairly and squarely lay that on the EU @ian29gte

There will be some obscure rule or edict that means we have to buy so much from there or something similar. Often the imported stuff from Spain, Netherlands etc is cheaper than the home grown stuff. That's what I can't get my head around.

If we are serious about global warming and sustainability then the politicians need to stop pandering to politic correct causes and focus on the basics - encourage people to grow their own fruit and vegetables, community schemes and incentives for farmers to drive quality and efficiency so we become self sufficient in the basics around feeding ourselves. Cheaper for us. Healthier for us. And think about all those transport miles saved in not moving basic foodstuffs around the EU.

But then the french, the spanish, the dutch would all be up in arms as their producers would lose out on all those exports. However, quite why anyone would buy and eat the bland, tasteless Spanish strawberries over a much richer and fruitier tasting UK one is beyond me.  Why do we need eggs from the EU? Barry is building chicken barns faster than Lotus builds cars.....

 

[Bibs]

38 minutes ago, ian29gte said:

My wife came home with packets of brussels sprouts from Morocco the other day. How does that work?

Did she have a slight tan and a new stamp in her passport? 

Where do they sell all the veggies grown on Planet Thanet then? Any idea?

[Chillidoggy]

29 minutes ago, Bibs said:

Did she have a slight tan and a new stamp in her passport? 

Where do they sell all the veggies grown on Planet Thanet then? Any idea?

 

A good friend of mine who's mother lives in Glasgow tells me she can get any number of veggies from Thanet Earth in her local store. You couldn't make it up.