Drive shaft oil seals!

[Gibbie]

I’ve been using lockdown to get going with jobs long overdue on my esprit S4!
Cam belt done!

So next the drive shaft oil seals. The manual references a tool for inserting the new seals, with two different collars (18 & 20mm). But I was hoping to be able to use a standard seal drive set that I have or an appropriate large socket that fits the seals. The key seems to be the depth to which one insert the new seal into the recess. I’ve measured the existing depths before disturbing anything.

But my question to the experts out there is how do I measure the required insertion depth?

I don’t want to do the job but still have leaks cos I haven’t pushed the seals in far enuf or vica versa!

Any advice please from folk who have done this before most gratefully received!

The seals I’m using were supplied by PNM

kind Regards

Paul G

[cweeden]

Hi Paul,

I have an insertion tool that I've lent out before. I'd be going out on a limb having not met you but if you would like to borrow it and promise, promise, promise to return it then I can post it to you.

I know what it is like to need an expensive special tool just once in a while that you know are out there sitting idle most of the time.

cheers

-Chris

[Escape]

You can measure from the edge of the casing to the hard rim of the seal. But it's unlikely you'll get it exact. I'm not convinced it need to be that exact though. I had no problems on my first Esprit. I did the seals when rebuilding the gearbox, so with excellent access and no driveshafts to get in the way. No special tool used, not measured that accurately, and no leaks.

I had less success recently with my current Esprit. RHS was good first time, LHS needed to come out again, I managed to split the seal while installing. So I ordered the tool (and was far from pleased to find it needed tinkering to fit over the driveshafts!) to make sure the seal was nice and straight when pushed in. I think that is the biggest advantage of the tool, not the depth.

Filip

[Gibbie]

Chris - so many thanks for your very kind offer! Above and Beyond if I may say so.

Foolishly, today  I thought I’d try inserting a seal with a large socket which was a snug fit inside the seal dust guard perimeter. Sadly, it didn’t go well! So I ordered the magic tool from Steve @  SGS as well as a replacement seal! Older and not a lot wiser.

Steve is hoping to get my order out on

Monday. If that all goes pear shaped, may I come back to you and take up your kind offer?

Filip - thanks also for your most helpful reply. My cock up today happened much as you described it! I had measured the depth of the original seals and was going to mimic that. Sadly didn’t work out. I think your right that the Special tool’s main feature is ensuring the seal goes in square.
 

Look after yourselves!

Kind Regards

Paul G

I seem to have managed to get a window obscuring part of my text! Not sure how, but hope you both can still make sense  of my message!

Kind Regards

Paul G

[cweeden]

No problem Paul, good luck with the second attempt.

@Escape what tinkering did you have to do to your tool? I felt the need to make some modification and wondering if we hit the same issue?

cheers

-Chris

[Escape]

Chris, I found the inner diameter was too tight a fit over the driveshaft. It would have taken a good beating to get the seal to the correct depth, and would probably left me with a seriously stuck special tool over the driveshaft. So I (we, a mate did most of the tinkering) enlargered the inner hole. We didn't have the exact size of reamer and didn't want to do to big either, so it took some working around in circles with a smaller one.

Filip

[cweeden]

I had trouble inserting to the correct depth and wondered if the hole hadn't been drilled deep enough. I didn't have the correct measuring tools back then so took some material off just to be sure.  I didn't have the issue you describe.

cheers

-Chris

[Gibbie]

Hi Chris and Filip

I have cleaned up everything ready for seal insertion, scratched my chin, and moved on to the rear suspension overhaul.

I had new dampers and springs in stock, bought ages ago! So in they went yesterday.

Pictures show the old, the new, the tool and a finished side!

Kind Regards

Paul

 

[ekwan]

On 04/06/2020 at 22:00, cweeden said:

Hi Paul,

I have an insertion tool that I've lent out before. I'd be going out on a limb having not met you but if you would like to borrow it and promise, promise, promise to return it then I can post it to you.

I know what it is like to need an expensive special tool just once in a while that you know are out there sitting idle most of the time.

cheers

-Chris

Take a cash security deposit

[Gibbie]

Hi Chris

just to say a further thanks to you for your very kind offer of a loan of the magic seal tool!

Steve (@SJS) was as good as his word and my insertion tool arrived yesterday.

So, today I set to and inserted the near side seal and pins. One side, therefore, now back together!

I was taken aback by the heavy hammering that was required to insert the seal and then again to insert the lock pins! Is this normal? Have you had the same experience?
 

Kind Regards

Paul

[cweeden]

It's funny you should mention the force required. I've changed a few over the years and this last time I too found myself pounding on them much harder than ever before. I did wonder if the SJ tool was fouling on something but couldn't see anything. Now that the gearbox is out again I may take a closer look and see if I can figure out what was going on. Generally I don't think they should need a lot of force.

The pins on the other hand need a positive amount of persuasion, always important to make sure the shafts are not 180 degrees out of alignment otherwise you end up hammering the pin against the inner shaft which is never good.

I have been looking for some suitable coil pins as an experiment to see if they are easier to fit but more importantly hope they can create a better seal. If anyone knows of a good selection of these please let me know. 🙂 

 

[Escape]

Paul and Chris, did the tool come off the driveshaft easily after hammering in the seals? As said above, the one I got from SJ seemed to bind on the driveshafts and would slide on easily without a seal either. Wondering if you had the same problem, maybe due to some roughness on the splines that was removed by hammering the seals in?

Filip

[cweeden]

Nope, it didn't bind but I did wonder if it was bottoming out which is why I took some material away from the inside of the tool to deepen the recess.

cheers

-Chris

[Gibbie]

Hi Filip and Chris

No, I checked the tool for clearance in the absence of a seal and all was well.

Today, I installed the offside seal and it went in with a lot less hammering. No change in preparation. Transmission aperture ,cleaned and degreased. New seal inserted into tool, seal edge dressed with Wellseal. Tool and seal mounted on output shaft. Tool hammered until collar was tight. So no explanation for that.

As for pin insertion -  I always established that the u/j was correctly orientated on the output shaft by checking that a 6 mm drill would pass through the whole assembly. Next I orientate the assembly such that I’m inserting the pins from the side of the joint that has a countersink. Then I squirt the sealant down from the top until it ones out the bottom. I pop the 6 mm drill shank back in the mating hole for about an inch from above. Then I tap in the 6.5 mm pin. When it displaces the drill shank I refill the hole with sealant. Next I hammer in the 3 mm pin after  having smothered it in the sealant. Then I seal around each pin exit zone. Done.

For what it’s worth, I confirm that the whole job can be done from below without removing the boot floor. U will need, from time to time, to rotate the drive shaft to get clearance between the transmission and your pins and punches. I use a 3mm punch to punch through the small pin, removing it completely. When it’s out - the pressure on the big pin is reduced and it punches thro quite easily with a 6mm punch.

I’m sure all the above is known by most of the forum members but it may help somebody.

Kind Regards

Paul G

[Gibbie]

Hi Paul,

I have an insertion tool that I've lent out before. I'd be going out on a limb having not met you but if you would like to borrow it and promise, promise, promise to return it then I can post it to you.

I know what it is like to need an expensive special tool just once in a while that you know are out there sitting idle most of the time.
 

Hi Chris

all back together and drive shaft seals dry so far!

not sure where you are based but I’m in Southampton. If I can ever do anything for you down this way please don’t hesitate to ask.

Kind Regards

Paul

[Gibbie]

Chris

I’m tempted to try these next time I need to do this job! Good suggestion of yours.
 

https://www.accu.co.uk/885-spiral-roll-pins#elasticsearch_id_feature_402397=402397_699&elasticsearch_id_feature_402390=402390_16&id_elasticsearch_category=885&orderby=ranking&orderway=asc

So, I would just use the one pin, no second smaller pin. The critical dimensions seem to be 6mm diameter by 50 mm length.

sadly the minimum order is 100 units!
 

kind Regards

Paul

 

[cweeden]

Hi Paul,

Maybe they would send a couple of free samples? 🙂

Glad to hear it's all back together and dry so far.

cheers

-Chris

PS I'm based in Dorking in Surrey, not a million miles from you but not on your doorstep either.

 

[Gibbie]

Good idea Chris! I’ve asked them - keep u posted!

kind Regards

Paul

[Gibbie]

Hi Chris

no free samples sadly, and initially a min order requirement  of 100!

But  I managed eventually to get an order of 6 units agreed.

May I send you a pair to try next time u do the drive shaft seals?

No cost but I’ll need an address to post them to you - however we arrange that?

Kind Regards

Paul 

[cweeden]

Oh yes, that's awesome. I'll send you a direct message tomorrow. I should be helping with other stuff and not on the computer now. 🙂 

[Jukka a]

Hi, have anybody tried M5 or M6 bolts instead of pins?

Jukka

[andydclements]

Hi @Jukka

What advantages do you see?

I'm thinking that pins (with the split out of alignment) give a fair chance of holding back the oil as they are pressing outwards onto the hole face, the silicone then does the rest. With bolts it's not going to be as tight since there has to be gap to push the bolt through, and then there will be threaded area with even more gap? It may also be slightly unbalanced and give rise to vibration. Maybe I'm missing advantages though, easier to fit and remove, perhaps others.

[Escape]

The bolts would never be as exact a match as the roll pins, so more play and a greater chance for leaks. Too high a price to pay for me just for ease of removal.

[Jukka a]

Yes, the easier way to remove and fit would be the benefits. If somebody has ever tried that would be interesting to know.

Jukka

[cammmy]

I'm about to do a similar thing as I'm doing a full suspension refresh have a slow leak past the seals. I bought a bearing/seal driver kit to do the job, is it a case of slow and steady should work or is this tool really needed? If someone was willing to loan, I would be happy to provide a 100% deposit and pay the postage.

Edited June 8, 2021 by cammmy