Total newbie wanting advice

[Failing2Excel]

Hi guys! Im new to the forum and to lotuses/loti in general, so apologies if this isnt the best place to post this.

So after a quick dabble with a Scimitar SS1, I am completely converted to the lighweight RWD classic sportcar. I had a few minor complaints about the SS1, so Im hoping that an Excel (or one of its siblings) might be the answer.

The SS1 wasnt very practical, only had 2 seats and quite a small boot. And very little headroom with the hardtop. Also mine being the 1600 CVH engined one it was quite slow and very unrefined. So, is a lotus the answer to my problems? Does an Excel drive like a propper sports car, as well as being practical enough for day to day use and long journeys?

Perhaps theres a different model I should look into? (Not the Elan)

What sort of price should I be looking to pay for something in decent condition? Im not after a show car, but also not a project which is going to spend more time broken than running. 

Thanks!

[Tony D]

Buy a good Excel and you won't regret it. If reliable daily running with minimal garage time is the goal, it Gauls me to say avoid Elite / Éclat, the majority of which had non galvanised chassis and BL based running gear ( personally, I think the Elite is the best shape of the lot). Excels are galvanised and Toyota running gear. Generally that means post 82, so you can just go road tax free as well😄.

Check out excelnet forum which focussed on the Grand Tourers. Huge amount of advise on look outs when buying on there.

Tony 

[jep]

I agree with all of the above bar Elite best looking, I'd go Eclat as my eyeball favourite but Excel far easier to own.

I've owned my Excel for 11 years. Totally brilliant drivers car, superb steering, sublime suspension, brilliant gearbox, twin carb, revvy reliable engine, rare and special looking. 

Excel are chronically under-appreciated and under-valued compared to far more ordinary machines from allegedly more exotic marques. 

I'm selling mine soon as I use my Evora more so don't need Excel alongside, message me for details if you wish.

Justin 

[Escape]

Welcome to TLF!

Another vote for the Excel, though I do agree the Elite is more special/ better looking.

Mine has replaced the Esprit for road trips and holidays. Including Lotus in the Peak and the Gentlemen Drivers Rally. There is plenty of storage space, the rear seats are usable for short distances or storage and most importantly, the Excel offers an effortless sporty drive.  You will not be disappointed. I was pleasantly surprised in the Peak, and even more so after finetuning the carbs some more. The engine is reliable and spares and info are easy to find. Yet prices remain low, which is nice for us connaisseurs. 🙂

I know I will miss mine, but now that my Elan +2 is back on the road, there is little point in holding on to her and I should clear some space. She is RHD, not a show car but mechanically very good, should you be interested.

Filip

PS: the plural of Lotus is Lotus 😉

[exeterjeep]

I have owned 4 excels over the years, last one I bought was in 1991 an ex demo. The most practical Lotus I have owned, it has reasonable room, and better quality build and components than the earlier elite/éclat. But in todays terms the speed/performance is ok, but seemed better back in the day. Although my favourite shape is the elite (disagree with @jep on this minor point !!), had 2, last one being an S2 so had galvanised chassis (but not radius arms - had to get them changed ) and a getrag gearbox. Owned that one for 21 years. Also had 2 S2 éclat's. 

[Failing2Excel]

Well guys - a bit of a thread revival!

In the end, I wimped out and bought a subaru instead - but I still fancy something RWD, so I'm saving up for something interesting. (I really fancy a Lotus or a TVR, something british)

With excels - is there an LSD available for them? Also, as a product of the 21st centuary, is there a trodden path into an EFI conversion, rather than the carbs? I'm the furthest thing from a purist one can get, but I do like my cars to look relatively unmodified at a glance - so if an engine swap is a good idea, Id love to learn more! Ive seen a couple of V8 conversions (Rover V8 and Chevrolet LS). Im a fan of the Rover V8, but it doesnt make much power and it doesnt rev brilliantly (at least not in land rover form) so I'm not sure if its a great engine for a sports car, and obviously theres no point butchering a good one.

Power steering isnt a must, neither are electric windows, or electric anything for that matter. Just stuff that works! Not too fussed on colour, but I must say that I dont particularly like the red. Interior wise is where I do get a bit fussy - I dont like the cream, or the brown, or the blue, Id strongly prefer to have the grey or black interior.

Prices seem higher than ever before - whats the general consencus on this? Are the prices staying high, going higher, or soon to come down? Obviously a modified, frequently driven, un-garaged example isnt going to hold its value or appreciate as well as a mint one locked kept under a roof and only driven 3 times a year, but thats not an option for me. If I buy one, it'll live outside, be driver quite often. 

Not in the market for one just yet, I probably need to save some more to get into a driveable example.

[Dunc]

prices wont go down any time soon - general consensus is they have been very underpriced vs their peers for some time.

If you want a V8 engined one, and your a capable mechanic, drop me a line as I have leads.

I've owned 5-6 lotus, including an excel and eclats. Everyone has their own favourite. There are no "bad" driving Lotus, only unmaintained/tired ones.

My weapon of choice is the V8 conversion, you just have to be a bit careful not to get one that's too undergeared or it becomes a very thirsty machine. Whether this bothers you or not depends on how often you are going to drive it. I can get mine to average single figure mpg when booting it away from the lights around town.

On the points above - for a weekend toy, I don't really follow the excel choice. The items that made Elite's a pain in the bum in the 70's and 80's were things like driveshaft UJ's that wore out every 5-10k miles, and mild steel chassis that crumbled.

5-10k miles is probably 4 years running for most elites and eclats nowdays. 

I wouldnt bother with efi....

mapped ignition perhaps, but its fine on carbs.

 

[Failing2Excel]

How competant of a mechanic would I need to be? I dont have a lift, or even an engine hoist, but Im studying engineering and Im keen on cars, Ive done an engine swap before (With a mate, on a small, fwd daihatsu) and as mentioned, I havnt got a garage or big shed or anything.

How economical can you get the V8 to be? My 3.9 efi manual discovery averaged around 14mpg, high 17s if I was careful, and about 12 around town, including racing corsas at the lights... If I could get an Excel (or similar) to do 30mpg+ then that would be excellent, I could even use it everyday!

Mileage - Well this really depends a lot, Id definately drive it at least once a week, to make sure everything works and that the fuel doesnt go stale etc etc, so Id manage at least 1500 miles a year, otherwise its not really worth having at all. Depending on how reliable/economical/enjoyable it was, I could use it 4 times as much, possibly even more if I took it on longer journeys as well as the daily commute.

Edited March 27 by Bibs

[Dunc]

driven gently on a 70 mph motorway run, I can get an 18mpg average. Its a 4.6 with big valve heads and a lumpy cam on an edelbrock 500 quad barrel and a 4.1 diff, so its not exactly set up to be economical.

The v8 cars I know of have engines fitted, but are not runners and have not yet been runners. They would need fettling on the ignition side and usual project ironing of issues.

[Failing2Excel]

Yeah, that sounds bonkers, have you had that on a dyno?

Engines fitted, with gearboxes and exhausts all mounted, complete interiors etc?

Also, a more general Excel question - what are the brakes like?

Edited March 27 by Bibs

[EXCEL V8]

Before I tuned my LS1-engined car it would do about 28 mpg on a run using the factory (GM) ECU - but it was only doing 2000rpm at 70mph with the diff I'd fitted.  Once I'd tuned the engine to 490bhp I never measured the fuel consumption again!!  It was a track-focussed car.  Personally I'd leave the engine and box alone in an Excel and get the already excellent handling even better. Spend your money on top-rate dampers/brakes/tyres etc..  You won't win the traffic light races but you'll completely leave them behind on the twisty stuff 😎.

Pete

[Failing2Excel]

Tyres, certainly. Suspension and brakes - those are bits Id want to see what the standard ones are like before upgrading, because I wouldnt want to ruin the ride etc. 

Only reason Id touch the engine is either for better reliability. Fuel economy and power would take a back seat.

Edited March 27 by Bibs

[tom kilner]

Why not get one with a good 2.2 engine, and then you just need to maintain it rather than do a swap out? Probably works out cheaper in the end too. These cars are cheap in reasonable condition like often under 10k - very cheap ones will turn out to be more expensive.

The 907 engines really got their reputation for unreliability because they were freqiently undermaintained as the cars got older - it's a high performance engine.

Additionally the cars are 40 years old, and many have spent a decade or 2 immobile, some in a hedge.

[Dunc]

Judged by modern standards, brakes on an excel are tragic. Dont be fooled by thinking they are disks all round and will be decent. The splitter valve essentially turns the rear ones down to marginal to avoid rear wheel lockup, and its all about the front ones, but single pistons on sliders from an 80's celica aren't about to impress anyone.

I looked at fitting twin piston ones from an ABS spec Previa, which I think bolt right up to the original carriers and would give a bit more friction surface and a decent increase in clamping area, but I sold the car before I did anything with them/investigated further.

The twin cam isn't unreliable - I wouldn't swap it out for better reliability. Engine swaps get done when people want more power -v8 noise , or avoiding the high cost of rebuilding a Lotus 907/912. Componentry is comparatively expensive on a Lotus engine.

Standard eclats/elites/excels arent particularly quick, despite the looks. Its the handling and road manners which makes them sporty.

 

[tom kilner]

There's straight line quick and along twisty lanes quick.  My Honda 400 was a lot faster on b Roads than my bmw1000 because it was so much lighter and more nimble. I wouldn't want to hold it over 100mph though.

Duncan is right about the brakes,  make the car more driveable. 14" Tyre choice is the other thing,  basically needing a different wheel to get more grip - or get a car with 15" wheels already?

And how about a total Rewire, using a full set of relays, decent colour coding and 21st century connectors? Most breakdowns are electrical, and most vintage lotuses' electrics are a bird's nest of sticky tape, colour, corrosion and fatigue.

I'm sure the reason the electrics get messed around with so much is that they weren't very good in the first place. This would improve the reliability far more than an engine swap.

[Failing2Excel]

On 01/02/2024 at 09:27, tom kilner said:

These cars are cheap in reasonable condition like often under 10k - very cheap ones will turn out to be more expensive.

What would you say is the minimum I should expect to spend on something I could use frequently? Doesnt have to be anything fancy, frankly it wouldnt bother me if it didnt have any paint at all.

On 01/02/2024 at 10:55, Dunc said:

Judged by modern standards, brakes on an excel are tragic. Dont be fooled by thinking they are disks all round and will be decent. The splitter valve essentially turns the rear ones down to marginal to avoid rear wheel lockup, and its all about the front ones, but single pistons on sliders from an 80's celica aren't about to impress anyone.

I looked at fitting twin piston ones from an ABS spec Previa, which I think bolt right up to the original carriers and would give a bit more friction surface and a decent increase in clamping area, but I sold the car before I did anything with them/investigated further.

Will they stop the car sufficiently? Obviously Ill have good tyres on, but am I going to have a crash and go "well that wouldnt have happaned if I had a "propper" car, or an MX5 or whatever"

On 01/02/2024 at 10:55, Dunc said:

The twin cam isn't unreliable - I wouldn't swap it out for better reliability. Engine swaps get done when people want more power -v8 noise , or avoiding the high cost of rebuilding a Lotus 907/912. Componentry is comparatively expensive on a Lotus engine.

I guess "reliability" and "low maintainance cost" arent the same - At best Id call myself a novice when it comes to actually working on cars. I've got the understanding of how the things work etc, I'm doing an engineering degree after all, but what I dont have is the knowledge or experience to know when I'm about to break something, or to know what I cant do. Id like to think that I could rebuild an engine, by following a book etc - but I've no doubt that reality is quite a long way away from what Id like to think.

On 01/02/2024 at 10:55, Dunc said:

Standard eclats/elites/excels arent particularly quick, despite the looks. Its the handling and road manners which makes them sporty.

Thats fine, I'm not after all out straight line speed, I've used up my SAC already, I want something nimble and fun.

On 02/02/2024 at 08:08, tom kilner said:

I'm sure the reason the electrics get messed around with so much is that they weren't very good in the first place. This would improve the reliability far more than an engine swap.

Yeah, Id say that the thing with electrics is, if they work, dont mess. And if they dont work, you arent left stranded (unless its dark)

 

[Escape]

My 2 cents. I've been using my Excel as a semi daily for the last couple of years, since I took my Esprit of the road. Including several trips to UK. The more I drive her, the more I get attached. She's never left me stranded, a few issues did occur (mainly electric) but because it's a simple car with straight forward wiring, it's easy enough to bypass a failed switch or such. The engine and carbs have been pretty much faultless. You will see the benefit from setting everything up correctly and keeping it that way. With mixed use and a rather gentle driving style, I'm getting around 30mpg.

The brakes don't bite like on a modern, so give less confidence, but if you put your foot down, you will lock up the wheels and stop as fast as can be expected. I've certainly never felt they were not adequate. 

Knowing how little I paid for her (swapped for a project Triumph Stag), she's been my most economical car yet. But I do miss driving an Esprit, as that's just more of an occasion.

Filip

 

[jep]

Good tyres are as important if not more important than 'modern' brakes. You learn to keep your distance, no bad thing, in older cars.

I drove 35,000 miles with my Excel, commuting in busy traffic and I never felt it was underbraked. You learn what it can do and drive accordingly. 

Justin 

[Failing2Excel]

On 04/02/2024 at 08:15, Escape said:

My 2 cents. I've been using my Excel as a semi daily for the last couple of years, since I took my Esprit of the road. Including several trips to UK. The more I drive her, the more I get attached. She's never left me stranded, a few issues did occur (mainly electric) but because it's a simple car with straight forward wiring, it's easy enough to bypass a failed switch or such. The engine and carbs have been pretty much faultless. You will see the benefit from setting everything up correctly and keeping it that way. With mixed use and a rather gentle driving style, I'm getting around 30mpg.

The brakes don't bite like on a modern, so give less confidence, but if you put your foot down, you will lock up the wheels and stop as fast as can be expected. I've certainly never felt they were not adequate. 

Knowing how little I paid for her (swapped for a project Triumph Stag), she's been my most economical car yet. But I do miss driving an Esprit, as that's just more of an occasion.

Filip

 

Sounds good, will it lock all 4 wheels? Some of the non-ABS cars Ive drive, they feel like the back brakes do absolutely nothing.

30mpg sounds managable, but not great. Is there anything to be gained by switching to electronic ignition or EFI? Without ruining the magic obviously.

Also - is it difficult to change/update the fuel lines to ones that are E10 compliant?

On 04/02/2024 at 17:20, jep said:

Good tyres are as important if not more important than 'modern' brakes. You learn to keep your distance, no bad thing, in older cars.

Of course, I daily drove a non-ABS land rover, and never felt that the brakes were lacking (it was on offroad tyres, which werent great in the wet). The only "Ohh sh1t" moment I had was when someone pulled out of a blind junction unexpectedly and I stopped only a couple of feet away.

[jep]

@Failing2Excel I'd use E5 fuel for Excel. Shell V Power or Esso or BP or any 97 to 99 octane. I never used 95 in my Excel.

Justin 

[Failing2Excel]

Im far too young to remember the times of leaded fuel (thankfully, nasty stuff) and from what Ive read, one used to adjust the ignition timing (and presumably the carburettors?) when running on higher or lower octane fuel.

Do Excels need high octane fuel? Obviously leaded petrol is no longer sold, so do they suffer from issues with valves and valve seats?

Thanks

Edited March 27 by Bibs

[exeterjeep]

I only use E5 in all my cars, 2 MG, Elan M100 and Evora and all the mowers/quads.  There are loads of chats in the internet re E5/E10. I had a problem with one of the quads, rang up my quad 'expert/service' place, and one of his first questions was about what petrol I had.  E10 degrades more quickly so in engines that are not used too often can have starting issues etc. Have seen signs in garden/agri places about draining E10 if you are not going to finish the fuel in a timescale eg 30 days.

[Failing2Excel]

Yes, there are 2 main issues with E10, although they apply to E5 in places where E5 has ethanol (Most of England, E5 has no ethenol in it, but in the north, and in Scotland and Wales, its 5% ethenol)

1.) It attracts water, so if you leave your car to sit for a while, particularly over winter when theres lots of condensation, you get water in the fuel tank, and thats bad for obvious reasons, as well as causing rust est, which is all crap that can block your fuel filter or the jets of the carbs etc.

2.) It eats most types of rubber, so most old cars' fuel lines will not tollerate it, and again, the rubber will perish and all those bits go somewhere, either the fuel filter or the carburettor. Ive had to rebuild carbs on small outboard motors because of ethanol, and that was before E10.

So given the car wont sit for a while, if I change the fuel hoses, is there any reason I cant run E10/95ron? The reason I ask is because back when I had my Scimitar SS1 I once really struggled to find E5 sometimes. That and also obviously its more expensive, and over a few thousand miles the savings add up. 

Edited March 27 by Bibs

[Escape]

As above, use premium fuel E5. The fuel lines are the least of your worries (and easy to replace), it's the seals of the carbs etc that will benefit from less ethanol. Of course higher octane is always a plus in an engine without knock sensors. And it will last better when not used, as stated.
A Lotus really does deserve premium. No problem using E10 occasionally though if you can't find premium.

With properly balanced brakes, you'll rarely if ever lock the rears. You want the bias to the front to maintain stability. I know you can get the rear to lock with some older Land Rovers, but that's often also due to the choice of tyres giving less traction on hard surfaces.
You do need to brake like you mean it. Not like in many moderns that send you towards the wind screen just by looking at the brake pedal. I prefer the progressive feel. Once you're used to it, it's certainly more than enough to be safe.

I'd say 30mpg is very good for a 40 year old, sporty, 4-seater! You might be able to gain a bit with electronic ignition and injection, but especially EFI will cost you more than you're likely to safe. There's also the risk that any benefits will be offset by more liberal application of the loud pedal. 😉 
Don't take this the wrong way, but if you struggle to justify 30mpg, maybe a classic car is not your best choice. It should be about smiles per gallon. 😎

Filip

[Failing2Excel]

Ahh okay, so there are a bunch of seals that are far more hassle than its worth to change, noted. When I had trouble finding E5, I ended up having to wash the ethanol out of E10, which worked out to be even more expensive since youre basically throwing away 10% of the fuel, and the octane of that remaining fuel is terrible since ethanol has an octane of 108 or something iirc.

Brake pedal, I agree. I find VAG cars to be the worst, although I suspect all german cars are the same, likewise with floor mounted accelerator pedals, horrible, cant stand them. My current daily, a Subaru Legacy, is excellent. If you slam on the brakes, it stops instantly, and theyre progressive enough to make heel-n-toe very easy. 

Is the brake bias adjustable? I understand why the fronts will lock up first, because if the backs locked first it would spin very very easilly. Is it possible to get the brake bias perfect, so that the fronts and backs lock up? On my land rover thats what happens, unless Ive got something really heavy over the rear axle to stop them from locking.

Electronic ignition and EFI arent particularly expensive to add these days, speeduinos and so on are dirt cheap, and if it reduced fuel consumption by say 15%, and meant I could run on regular E10 rather than premium, thats quite a substantial saving over the course of a few years.

And justifying 30mpg, its not so much a bottom line thing, its not like Ill have to eat plain rice to scrape enough money together for my next tank of fuel, but its more of an "is it worth it" feeling every time youre standing at a que in a petrol station behind someone who cant decide is they want the snickers or the mars bar. It stings a lot less is you go there half as often and it costs you half as much, but then you do have to drive away in something far less interesting like a diesel Skoda.

Edited March 27 by Bibs