Total newbie wanting advice

[Escape]

I can imagine going through the trouble to try ans wash the ethanol out of regular E10 fuel is very much not worth it!

Totally agree the brakes on VAG are almost binary. Merc seems to be a lot better, haven't driven a recent BMW but I expect they'll be OK too, given their sporty reputation.

A 15% saving in fuel consumption would be a huge leap, 5% seems more realistic and 10% would be a very good result. Electronic ignition is easy and cheap enough (123ignition for example, which even retains the stock look). EFI is a different game. You'll not only need the ECU, but also all the sensors to feed info to it and most importantly a different intake manifold with injectors, fed by a higher pressure fuel pump. It's an interesting project for sure. You've made a few references to Land Rovers, so I take it you know of MegaSquirt as well? For many years the preferred way of fitting or improving EFI on a Rover V8, though lately Haltech etc have become popular as well. We did a couple of MegaSquirt conversions, usually already starting from an EFI V8. If starting from a carbed engine, it's easy enough to find all the EFI parts. Not so with Lotus, there are not that many 9xx engines around and luckily most are kept running and not broken up for parts, unlike a Rover V8.

I'm quite happy with the 300 mile usable range of my Excel. It's certainly not holding me back when taking her on a road trip. And we do have the advantage that all petrol stations around here have the option to pay at the pump, so no queuing. I'll admit that's something I don't particularly enjoy when visiting UK. 😉 

[Failing2Excel]

Washing the ethanol out isnt that bad, if you know youve got to do it in advance and have some time/space to do it. Trying to do it 1 gallon at a time, running backwards and forwards between home and the petrol station... thats not fun, especially when you dont know how far youll have to go before you can get E5.

Yes, vaguelly aware of megasquirt, same sort of thing as speeduino, ME221 etc, popular for good reasons, cheap and simple. My Land Rover is a 3.9 V8, broken so badly that nobody can fix it, partially due to electronics, but may also have had very bad bore wash. Waiting for some nice weather to investigate, since I've no garage.

As for EFI-converting an Excel, it may not be a great idea, since the standard carbs produce great power. Just doing the internet equivelant of thinking aloud, I presume since the standard carbs are worth quite a bit, theyd be worth selling (or putting to one side to make the conversion reversable) so then some ITBs would be needed (or a single, but that would probably reduce power, so whats the point), a throttle position sensor, a MAF sensor, crank and/or camshaft position sensor, and probably a few others that I cant recall. The fuel pump and injectors are cheap, Id guess that an early Toyota item might be a direct fit, but thats a long shot. Injector placement is tricky, either a new inlet manifold, or drill holes in the standard one, but thats hardly optimal. Then all the tuning to get it running well, increased insurance premiums because its modified (Im only 21!) All that hassle and expense for 5% fuel savings? Definately not worth it.

The problems Ive got with making the leap are 1.) Prices have gone up a fair bit, and 2.) The MX5 fastor - this is the term I use to arbitrarily compare "fun" cars that arent MX5s to an MX5, because when I had my SS1, everyone told me I was a moron for not buying an MX5 (Despity the SS1 being 100kg lighter, almost entirely rustproof, far more unique, etc etc). And looking at Excel prices, for the less money I could get a really nice MK1, MK2 or MK3 MX5, with money left for mods when the desire for more power inevitably strikes. The other quite similar, very temping car at that price range is a TVR 350i, now Ive never driven either, but from what I know and from what Ive read, the Lotus appears to be the better car, its galvanised, its got a solid roof, 4 seats, etc. On the other hand, the TVR has a Rover V8, so parts are cheaper and options for increasing power are plentiful.

As tempted as I was to buy someone elses unfinnished project Rover V8 engined Excel, I still think Id better wait for a running driving example. I presume that a Rover V8 engined Excel is worth far less than one with its original Lotus engine? Anyone selling?

Edited March 28 by Bibs

[tom kilner]

I've been looking at sold prices on these Lotuses for a few years and I'd say originality isn't massively improving value.

  A current mot, good paint and interior seem to have the most effect on value -

But to hit 5 figures I'm sure you'd need the original engine.

And to have spent 5 figures on restoration and maintenance🤣

Lotusbits do a fuel injection kit for 9** engines - given how many they have done, and how long for,  its probably worth a look.

[Failing2Excel]

Im back... again

Ive still not bought a lotus, but Ive seen a couple of Elites up with Rover V8 engines. Whats the story with these? Are they a factory built special edition?

I also cant find anywhere online what the payload is for an Excel, or if it can tow? I dont want to tow anything heavy, but occasionally I do tow a small unbraked trailer. As for payload, all I really want to know is if I put 4 people and some stuff in it, will I need to drive straight to an osteopath because the suspension is on the bumpstops straight away? (Which is want happens with my Subaru, which only has 400kg of payload)

Also, I think the Eclat is definately the best looking, so other than the galvanised chassis, is there any reason to pick an Excel over an Eclat?

Thanks!

[jep]

There are no Lotus factory V8 Eclat or Excel. Lotus only used their own 4 cylinder on these cars. 

Excel has Toyota gearbox and various other more robust Toyota parts. Excel is considered a more reliable car than Eclat, certainly when new. If it's just a weekend, little used classic, it perhaps makes no difference.  Eclat certainly a purer look.

I'd suggest you buy a book on the 4 seat wedges, the history is interesting. Graham Robson wrote a good one in the mid-1980s.

Justin

[Escape]

As above, all V8s are engine swaps. When they were new, the Lotus 907/912 was just as powerful as the Rover 3.5 V8, with only slightly less torque (be it at higher revs). As much as I like the Rover V8, in a light car like a Lotus, there is little to be gained by changing to a period correct engine. If you're talking about a (tickled) 4.6 or 5.0 V8, that's a different story of course.

4 up the Excel is perfectly doable, even with some luggage. The limiting factor will mainly be how long the people in the back can cope with it. I've driven a couple of parade laps on Francorchamp with 2 adults on the back seat, no problem. I've also gave another couple a lift back to the hotel when their Alfa Romeo Spider broke down. With a boot full of our luggage + spares and tools (I was running tech support that weekend, but obviously couldn't fix a cracked radiator on the side of the road, so took them to the hotel to recover the car later) I'm sure we were over max allowed weight, but we had no problems. That included mainly back roads with often poor surface. According to the manual, the Excel has 350kg load capacity (including the driver). Which means 75kg/passenger + 50kg luggage. We were maybe 50kg over that but never bottomed out. I did take it easy over bumps of course.

As far as I know, there are no tow packages for the Elite/Eclat/Excel, so no official towing weights. One of the problems is you need to be able to securely connect the towball to the chassis, which ends at the rear axle. Unlike on a unibody car or something with chassisbeams running all the way back to the rear bumper. So unless you're cutting through the spare wheel well, you'll lose a lot of ground clearance fitting braces under the body. I think I have seen pictures of an Elite with a small trailer, but no technical details on how it was done.

I do agree the Elite/Eclat are better looking, with cleaner lines. I was actually looking for one of those when I came across my Excel. Not all the Toyota parts are upgrades, but being the third iteration, the Excel does have some improvements over the previous models. Like rear disc brakes instead of inboard drums.

 

[Failing2Excel]

15 hours ago, jep said:

here are no Lotus factory V8 Eclat or Excel. Lotus only used their own 4 cylinder on these cars

Ahh, the "donnington edition" or whatever it was, that was done by a different company?

15 hours ago, jep said:

Excel has Toyota gearbox and various other more robust Toyota parts. Excel is considered a more reliable car than Eclat, certainly when new. If it's just a weekend, little used classic, it perhaps makes no difference.  Eclat certainly a purer look.

Do the Excel/Toyota bits fit the Eclat? Say if I bought an Eclat and the gearbox broke, could I fit one from an Excel, or the Toyota with an Excel bellhousing? I wouldnt just be keeping it for weekends, Id be driving it most days, including throughout the winter.

And what about roofbars? Again not something thats a major dealbreaker, but very handy for moving a kayak or a bicycle or a few planks of wood. Weve all seen James May's dodgy roofbox camping coffin, a long time before TentBox came along...

One more thing, how safe are these cars? Ive read that Excels in particular were very safe for their time, but the final push factor for me selling my SS1 was someone else being careless very nearly killed me, (they turned right without looking or indicating, I was doing about 40mph, downhill in a 40mph zone, I just about swerved to avoid them). I thought long and hard, and in a normal modern-ish car, made out of steel, with airbags, etc, had I not avoided the crash, Id probably have walked away. In an old Land Rover with a winch bumper, Id drive home, and the person in the other car might be very injured. In an old MX5, or an old small hatchback, I reckon Id be seriously injured. In the SS1, Id be dead. Roughly where does the Excel fit amongst them?  

[jep]

@Escape is your guide for technical stuff. 

Elite Eclat Excel were exceptionally safe for their period. Elite won a safety award.

Sadly, time and tech move on. No old car is safe in an impact with a modern, as newer cars are designed to throw the energy back to whatever it hits. Wonderful for those in the modern, not for the occupants of the older wagon. 

[Escape]

Despite being very similar, there actually isn't that much that is a straight swap between the Elite/Eclat and Excel. Too many changes and evolution, ranging from simple things like a different switch or connector to more fundamental ones like differences in the chassis for the different gearbox, outboard brakes etc. Anything can be done, but it's usually not the easiest route. I'm far from an expert on the Elite/Eclat so can't give you all the details. If you read a thread about a chassis swap, you'll find a considerable list of modifications needed to make it all work. For your use, an Excel seems like the logical choice. Probably the best choice for a daily driver classic Lotus.

Fitting roof bars would be a challenge. There's nothing on the roof to attach to, no gutter above the doors or incorporated rails like on many moderns. The roof itself isn't that sturdy, so you'd need to make sure any additional weight is properly transferred to the centrals roll over hoop and front and rear pillars.

Safety wise, they were top of the class in period, but of course don't have any airbags or crumple zones. And weighing several 100kgs less than the average car on the road now will also be a disadvantage. On plus side, the excellent visibility and handling and the fact that any Lotus (possibly except to the current EVs) will keep you focused on driving means you're less likely to get caught out as you see it coming and have a better chance at successful evasive maneuvers.   

[Failing2Excel]

How unreliable would an Eclat be if I used it everyday? Say 12,000 miles a year? Or is a lotus just not the car for that?

I have found a race-prepped Eclat for withing my budget, obviously Id have to un-race prep it, but Im told the rollcage comes out quite easilly, so its just a case of changing the seats and a few other bits.

On the safety thing - Ive never had a problem relating to my driving, its when other people do stupid stuff. Im not that bothered about the likelyhood of me wrapping a lotus around a tree, its more that I dont want some mouthbreathing imbecile taking me out of the gene pool because they had a funny text and came onto the wrong side of the road to read it. Really, what Im asking is how strong is the bit of the car that Im sat in? An old Land Rover hasnt got crumple zones, but if yours is on a 5mm galvanised chassis with a tubular winch bumper, its not going to crumple at all, and youll just share someone elses crumple zone. If you survive the impact with your own steering wheel, youll walk away. In an Excel, is it much the same? Or will you just be crushed because youre essentially driving a plastic bathtub, and itll just be flattened? Obviously its not a heavy car, so it cant exploit others crumple zones like a big heavy Landy, but so long as Im not going to be squished, I fancy my chances.

[Dunc]

As classic cars go, elite, eclat and excel are very safe. At least - safe by the standards set in the 1970's.

You decide if you want to drive a classic car or not, same way as I decide if I want to ride my kawasaki.

The donnigton you have seen was an aftermarket chassis swap package made by Spyder Engineering - more famous for their elan chassis replacements. It wasnt particulalry lucrative, and was felt to need more development which it never got, particularly around the rear suspension, but it adds the v8, a properly strong diff with appropriate ratios, and much more beefy UJ's (it grafts in  a jag IRS rear end (salisbury 4HU, usually with a Powrlok lsd).

If its the yellow spyder donnington, dont pay 10k for it. Current owner paid too much at auction, and imo is pricing his exit accordingly. He will have it forever. The red ones a better price, but looks to need an awful lot of work.

Disagree with some on here that the standard 3.5 isnt worth it. comparing headline bhp and torque figures suggests it wont be much of an improvement, but bhp is merely a speed weighted measure of torque. Achieving the same BHP at much lower revs equates to much more force (acceleration). Then there is the noise.....

I've owned 2.2 excel, 2L eclat, 2.2 eclat and V8 conversion, and the v8 transforms the car.

If you like the purity of line of the eclat, but want a galvanised chassis, electric light pods and a better gearbox, could I suggest you look at an eclat S2? Gearbox in the S2 is better thant the box in the excel, but was costing Lotus a fortune to buy in. Supra box from the parent company Toyota, was a cheaper option than the massively over specced Getrag 265. The getrag 265 is hewn from granite and is waaaay stronger than necessary on a 4cylinder application.

If you buy the track eclat, I may have interest in buying your discarded roll cage. I have a feeling that removing it will be a lot more complicated than you think, as putting an MSA legal cage into a fibreglass car requires it to be more than just bolted into the body with flat plates like on a steel monocoque......( and it might get destroyed it cutting it off its mounts where it picks up the suspension tops)

Unless your looking for an engineering restomod project - buy an excel SE or Eclat/Elite S2.

[Failing2Excel]

12 hours ago, Dunc said:

As classic cars go, elite, eclat and excel are very safe. At least - safe by the standards set in the 1970's.

You decide if you want to drive a classic car or not, same way as I decide if I want to ride my kawasaki.

The donnigton you have seen was an aftermarket chassis swap package made by Spyder Engineering - more famous for their elan chassis replacements. It wasnt particulalry lucrative, and was felt to need more development which it never got, particularly around the rear suspension, but it adds the v8, a properly strong diff with appropriate ratios, and much more beefy UJ's (it grafts in  a jag IRS rear end (salisbury 4HU, usually with a Powrlok lsd).

If its the yellow spyder donnington, dont pay 10k for it. Current owner paid too much at auction, and imo is pricing his exit accordingly. He will have it forever. The red ones a better price, but looks to need an awful lot of work.

Disagree with some on here that the standard 3.5 isnt worth it. comparing headline bhp and torque figures suggests it wont be much of an improvement, but bhp is merely a speed weighted measure of torque. Achieving the same BHP at much lower revs equates to much more force (acceleration). Then there is the noise.....

I've owned 2.2 excel, 2L eclat, 2.2 eclat and V8 conversion, and the v8 transforms the car.

If you like the purity of line of the eclat, but want a galvanised chassis, electric light pods and a better gearbox, could I suggest you look at an eclat S2? Gearbox in the S2 is better thant the box in the excel, but was costing Lotus a fortune to buy in. Supra box from the parent company Toyota, was a cheaper option than the massively over specced Getrag 265. The getrag 265 is hewn from granite and is waaaay stronger than necessary on a 4cylinder application.

If you buy the track eclat, I may have interest in buying your discarded roll cage. I have a feeling that removing it will be a lot more complicated than you think, as putting an MSA legal cage into a fibreglass car requires it to be more than just bolted into the body with flat plates like on a steel monocoque......( and it might get destroyed it cutting it off its mounts where it picks up the suspension tops)

Unless your looking for an engineering restomod project - buy an excel SE or Eclat/Elite S2.

Rather alot to unpack here, firstly, thanks for the info!

Safe by 70s standards is pretty lethal. Very safe by mid 90s standards, I could definately live with. The Disco 2 was a relatively safe car in 2004, despite having the underpinnings of the 1960s designed range rover. Is it much the same with the Excel? Is it a fair bit better than an Elite, for example? Or to put it simply, an Excel and an NB MX5 are about to have a head on crash, in which would you rather sit?

As for riding a bike, theres a reason I refuse to try. I know Ill love it, and I know Ill kill myself on one.

Donningtons - what are they really worth? The yellow one looks to me, at a glance at least, to be a complete useable car. £10,000 is too much, and its way beyond my budget, so what do you think its worth? And then by extension, the red one is worth that much minus the cost of the parts needed to make it that good, at most.

Torque vs power - this debate has gone on for decades, and put simply, torque at the wheels is what makes the car go. If youve got the same power, but less torque, you need shorter gearing. From a physics perspective, power is what determines how fast it goes, torque just sort of describes how it does it.

Theres much more to be gained from the V8 though, its much easier and cheaper to get parts for, and you can upgrade it much much more easilly too. And I suspect its much less stressed than the little 4-pots, but then you could argue it puts more stress on the rest of the car. I also suspect that adding a couple hundered pounds to the front of the car has some rather noticable effects on the handling?

Eclat S2 sounds rather fantastic. On the note of gearboxes, I presume that the Donningtons use a 5-speed Rover LT77, as found in the SD1, etc?

Actually, the donningtons sound rather great, Lotus body and chassis, Rover engine, Jaguar rear axle with LSD...

If I did get the race-prepped Eclat, how much would the cage be worth? The seller tells me its not difficult to remove it, but if the car has had to be hacked to bits to get the cage in, and removing it is going to leave me with a floppy plastic box, then its no use.

Thanks!

[jerzybondov]

For the OP, have you owned and run a classic car before? Any classic (especially at this end of the market) is never going to be a worry free 12k miles a year experience. There will always be things that need doing, and yes - the odds of the car breaking down / not starting at some point if used year round, all weathers, 12k miles are pretty high.

So it’s worth managing your expectations a bit on that front if you’re not used to owning/driving classics. There’s a reason why 99.9% of people spend their £5-10k on a 2010 Ford Focus for daily driving duties!

But if you’re handy with the spanners and will enjoy spending many of your weekends underneath the car or upside down in the footwell then that’s not a reason to not do it. Just know what you’re getting into! Assume that your budget is tight so you wouldn’t want to be giving it to a specialist to stay on top of everything. 

On the safety front, you’ve got a steel chassis that’s pretty tough head on. So you’re well up on a 1980s French small hatchback, for example. Side impact protection wasn’t really a thing in those days though. Modern tyres will make a big difference for year round use (compared to when the car was new).

 

[Failing2Excel]

11 hours ago, jerzybondov said:

For the OP, have you owned and run a classic car before?

Yes, I had a 1986 Scimitar SS1 for a few months, never let me down but I got fed up with it, because it was too slow and impractical to use everyday, and it was very nearly as unsafe as a motorcycle. I also have a 1996 Land Rover Discovery, but that will probably never run again, and when it did it got 14mpg, so in practical terms it was relatively useless too.

11 hours ago, jerzybondov said:

There will always be things that need doing, and yes - the odds of the car breaking down / not starting at some point if used year round, all weathers, 12k miles are pretty high.

Yep, Im not that bothered about the occasional breakdown and the need for more frequent maintainance, so long as its relatively cheap and easy to do. The best way I can think of putting it is like this - if you were a keen climber, you wouldnt show up to work fully rigged up in the safety harness with hands covered in chalk, but you might wear your climbing shoes all the time. So if using a lotus is more like the former than the latter, and Im more likely to arrive at work in an AA lorry than the car I set off in, its no good, but if its a car I can use everyday and needs a few bits and bobs doing every other weekend or so, then its fine.

11 hours ago, jerzybondov said:

There’s a reason why 99.9% of people spend their £5-10k on a 2010 Ford Focus for daily driving duties!

Yes, its very easy to "man-maths" your way into owning 2 cars, something like a diesel Skoda Fabia estate, £35 a year to tax, uses sod all fuel, etc etc, and then keep the lotus as a toy. There are a few problems with that though, not least the space to keep it. For me, its a very expensive toy, and having a boring "daily" will still cost me the best part of a grand to insure, and it still uses some fuel, servicing, depreciation, etc etc, and thats all money spent on the utility of driving, with zero joy. Id rather spend more money, but really, really enjoy it.

11 hours ago, jerzybondov said:

But if you’re handy with the spanners and will enjoy spending many of your weekends underneath the car or upside down in the footwell then that’s not a reason to not do it

When it goes well, its quire rewarding. When it doesnt, its infuriating, and its a waste of a sunny day. I havnt got a garage or even a shed, so it would all be done on the driveway.

11 hours ago, jerzybondov said:

Assume that your budget is tight so you wouldn’t want to be giving it to a specialist to stay on top of everything. 

Definately not.

11 hours ago, jerzybondov said:

On the safety front, you’ve got a steel chassis that’s pretty tough head on.

You dont happen to know the thickness of the steel, do you? Is it a propper bit of heavy-duty scaffolding or is it recycled dogfood cans? Ive seen the TVR chassis, and those look relatively tough, but the only thing in my budget would have a V6 (slow) or a very ropey 350i, which a.) Hasnt got a roof and B.) is no more practical than the SS1, really.

[Kevin Wheeler]

I have an 84 Esprit. Same sort of era.

I reckon you could hang a battleship off of the chassis. 

[Escape]

The Elite/Eclat/Excel chassis is a very decent bit of kit, well engineered compared to for example a contemporary TVR! But it doesn't have computer designed crumple zones, like an MX5. So you're likely to be worse off in a serious accident. After a light shunt, you might have a better chance of still being able to drive away though. The same pretty much applies to a Disco1/2 or similar ages Landie. They're quite sturdy and can definitely take a beating, but if you're unlucky to be hit at a weaker angle or the other car is actually the heavier one, your chances can take a real plunge. As safety items like airbags are limited if fitted at all. If you're really that concerned about safety, you'll need to get something recent and preferably of larger size. For me, life is definitely too short to drive boring cars and anything remotely modern soon gets on my nerve, so I'm more than happy to take my chances in the Excel. Or the Esprit for that matter. The Elan is a different proposition, as much as I love driving it, it doesn't mask its 60s design and I just don't feel as confident when traffic/ weather/ circumstances get more demanding. I'm sure that would improve if used daily, though the risk would remain.

As I said before, I love the Rover V8, but I think an Elite/Eclat/Excel gets more from the revvy Lotus engine than a torquey V8. So you'd have to spend a fair bit to actually improve things, i.e. no carb or flapper 3.5 but a 4.6 with good EFI. And you'd still lose part of the charm/originality. Now if you were to find a Lotus without an engine or with a broken one, a V8 would be worth considering. They're not that much heavier, being all alloy and very compact (with the center cam instead of DOHC).
And yes, V8 parts are easy to find, but as it's a none-standard install, you will run into some specific parts that can give you a hard time. There are several suppliers of Lotus parts and the cars are well documented (on here and on https://www.lotusexcel.net/) so not much to worry about.

[Failing2Excel]

Yes, thats the other thing, a Disco 1 is heavier than most other things on the road, whereas an Excel isnt. My old SS1 was probably more like an old 60s Elan, albeit a tad slower. 

As for engine swaps, has anyone done a Honda K-series, probably using a full Honda S2000 donor car? Thats an engine that really likes to rev, but its also well known for its reliability and tuneability. Ill grant you, it sounds horrid, but thats the only downside.

Ive currently got a Subaru, and I maintain that its the most well-rounded fast car you can buy, but Im a tad bored of it, and I suspect Ill soon have a much longer commute, and Ive gathered 2 speeding tickets in it already, so Im either going to turbocharge it to make it less boring, or replace it. If I replace it, Ive got to get something thats at least as sensible to use daily, i.e. gets at least 25mpg, and practical enough.

The sensible thing to do is either to keep the subaru, or replace it with something similar, but diesel (BMW 330D Touring, Audi A4 Quattro Avant 3.0tdi, that sort of thing) but the cost of making those as fast as my current car arent quite as low as youd expect, and a diesel Audi will get boring very quickly, and the BMW wont have an LSD as standard, and adding one is a few grand, so Im not too keen on one of those either.

The other sensible option is to just drive what I call a "plain rice car" - i.e. something really boring and cheap, nasty diesel hatchback, ecoboost thingy, whatever, and save up for a really nice example of whatever less practical sporty car I desire.

OOOOOORRRRRRRRR, I can be daft and daily drive a 30+ year old Lotus.