Esprit Market Watch

[Escape]

12 hours ago, eeyoreish said:

Aren't those all just the same car..?

Everyone knows there's a big scene for tuning beetles, so they come in all shapes and sizes*

* Actually always the same size, just a bit flatter/wider and more aero

[Andyww]

Not sure what all this negativity about 911s is. I mean who could not love this thing of beauty?

[Escape]

10 hours ago, swindon_alan said:

@Escape will have your SE off you. He's serial with them...

I do have a huge liking for the SE! But I'm branching out lately. Only missing something from the current line-up, certainly wouldn't mind a 380 .

[silverfrost]

That is one thing i do love about beetle fans,  plenty of beetles about as we all know, but yet folks seem to save them no matter what the condtion,  I admire the cult following of the die hard beetle fans 

[Vanya]

I was tempted to buy a 911 earlier this year, then I read about their exploding engines (996 and 997.1) and how Porsche wanted up to 20,000 GBP for a replacement when it inevitably failed right after the IMS failed. 

Then I realised I already have a car like that; It even says 911 on it:

 

[rudolphwolven]

What a red beauty.......congratulations !

Ruud

[Jacques]

My friend just sold his 996. Why? I'll be honest and tell you why. It's about time the truth is out, because it's normally hidden behind a thick mask of silence. And these problems does not only affect the 996, but a lot more cars:

1 year and 9 months. Lost 39.000 gbp in parts. Plus Labour and his own wrenchin' time.

So, he had all the engine chains and chain tensioners replaced. Twice.

All spark plugs and leads, coils etc. replaced. Three times.

4 sets of exhausts replaced. 2 sets of originals, two sets of aftermarket (which last better).

ashtray broke and replaced.

blinker stalk replaced.

Redyed the interrior. Originally, Porsche used very Little leather, mostly leatherette which is pure plastic.

steering Wheel replaced. Totally worn Down.

Gearknob replaced. Totally worn Down.

Gearbox completely rebuilt.

watercooler and both air con rads replaced.

oil filler tube broke. Replaced. Made of plastic, like many other bits in the engine compartment, which goes brittle very quickly.

Airbox replaced as it broke.

engine mounts and gearbox mounts replaced. Cracked.

plastic surround at the mirror adjuster both replaced. Broke all plastic flaps.

Porsche double din infotainment replaced. Burnt completely inside.

All loudspeakers replaced. All of them had deterriorated with no Card board speaker material left.

left hand window mech replaced.

all clips for both doorcards replaced. They broke on normal driving roads. All of them.

center console replaced. Cracked. Most interrior is spraypainted plastic. Not dyed through from factory.

All brake discs, calipers, brake hoses replaced. (not carbon brakes).

Both steering ball joints, inner and outer replaced.

Shocks and springs went sloppy. That is not a good thing on a rear engined car.

Replaced shock mounts.

steering coloum refurbed.

Ignition Lock replaced. Burnt out.

At the first touch, all blind plastic thingies deleting the non-existent rear window buttons fell Down into the center tunnel. Replaced.

Both headlamps replaced. Went foggy, matte and yellowish.

both rear lamps replaced. Went foggy.

3 times replaced the plastic holders for the head lamps.

central locking in both doors replaced.

IMS bearing replaced in a pre inspection of that (didn't break, but just about to, so replaced). He had the early double bearing, which is actually the better solution and normally don't fail as often as the later single bearing.

Left hand middle piston scraped the cylinder. Means totally new engine block as it's a non repairable part. The UK based specialist (only one in the World) WHO installs liners, takes the same Price as a new block. 12500 gbp alone incl. a few other items which are a very good idea to replace, now you are in there anyway.

rear Wheel bearings replaced.

steering Wheel airbag replaced (developed a non repairable error).

front end undertray replaced. Cracked while driving on normal roads.

All inner Wheel arch fenders (don't know what they are called) replaced. Cracked it's fittings. Flapped around.

Generator replaced twice. (smelled real bad one time).

I am sure I forgot something. but this is just off the top of my head.

And that was in one year and nine months and 12000 kilometers.

 

Porsche? No thanks. What a load of crap. And the worst is, that many Porsche owners are people WHO for example have just been promoted as a semi executive, so they have exactly enough income to go buy a 911 as a token of their day job career (which is fine by me), and are so anxious about it, that they will not admit their cars are über fragile and generally pretty bad made, while they at the same time criticise Lotus for being crap plastic cars that are extremely fragile and breaks Down every minute. Not so as reality tells. judge the tree by the fruits.

The ims affects 996, 997.1, boxter and early Cayman. 16% fail rate. But a similar thing also happens to some air cooled.

The cylinder/piston fail affects 928, 996, 997, Cayman and boxter.

Posrche in their eternal wisdom chose to make the engine Blocks in one piece on watercooled cars, and did not install cylinder liners, and did not treat the bores made directly in the aluminium with Nikasil, but with their own cheaper version, and as the pistons of the two middle cylinders (often seen of the left side middle cylinder) expand faster than the cylinders themselves, they tear the bore, starts using much oil (Porsche recommend Mobil 1, 0-40 fully synthetic oil for these engines), colours the left or right hand rear bumper (cross over exhaust) and leave a thick oil contaminant on the affected spark plug, which then develops a rough driving and an engine error code. By then it's all too late.

Why do you think most 928 are not tuned? The reason is above.

Personally, I like the 911 from 1982 with a normal 231 Hp 3,2 Liter engine and in the WTL shape (Werks Turbo Look). But those engines (and almost all their aircooled engine Blocks twist and tear the main bearings. Alex Thomsen in Denmark (passed away recently) only did these engines some 30 years. He developed a special rival to redrill the crankcase and rebuild the engine so it would not tear the new main berings Again, which they usually do after 25.000 kilometers, if the special correction is not made. Only he did this job, so he got many hundreds of air cooled 911 engines from all over the World to repair. Was a VERY good business, to say the least.

This is the reality, so make up your own mind. This is the facts and not a rant. I like the 911 but would not buy one.  Nice cars and nice iconic shape. I don't Crown Lotus cars, but they are really better made, drives better and are much cheaper to own and run, even if you have to deal with the early V8 liners moving and gaskets.

Yes, I agree. The Porsche following are definately talking better about their cars and quite fanatic about them. Lotus people could very well copy some of that. More so for the car reviewers, WHO seems to think there is only one sportscar in the World- the 911.

While I like the Lotus cars being cheap (or at least cheaper), one may argue that cheap prices does not always warrant good service and repair by the owner. Hence the crappy state or being used as Winter cars of some examples.

Based on the above writing, I like the idea of for example the Singer cars from the US, and similar ways of doing the 911's. To do the best and take all of the best that one can get or Work out, and make a better car  

Just my two pence.

Kind regards,

Jacques.

Here's an über nice dp tuned 1986 935 flatnose I like it a lot!!

 

[Dan E]

That's worrying Jacques a mate of mine is popping round tomorrow in his 996 that he picked up today! Won't be showing him this post, he is coming to the festival so it's not all so bad 

[Andyww]

3 hours ago, Jacques said:

  Nice cars and nice iconic shape.

I think you were right until that bit.

How anyone can consider a 911 a nice shape is completely beyond me. Everything about the car is wrong, starting from the basic layout of the car and working up. They started out with an incorrect design with all the weight at the back and trying to make it work ever since. Engineers do not buy Porsches.

Apart from that, every car festival is infested with hundreds of the things. At Silverstone Classic the other day there were acres of them so they have no exclusivity at all. There were 4 Esprits.

I dont understand why people who dont care about what a car looks like or how special it is dont buy something like a Nissan GT-R which is better in every way. 

[Jacques]

Honestly Dan, I think you should. If you're a good friend, do it. His face will turm a bit pale, but that is nothing compared to the bill in the case of an engine self-destruction. If he don't care, allright, so be it. But at least he can make an informed descision.

I can asure you that he wants to have a camera Down those two middle cylinders as well as having a preinspection of the ims. As you pay zero registration tax (160% on top of your cars Price) like in Denmark, sometimes the watercooled 911's mostly 996, but also others, are being neglected. With 176.000 996 cars made, they come dirt cheap.  But they are made dirt cheap, unfortunately. When they do run and fully function, they are nice cars.

The cylinder problems are reacted to from some workshops and specialists, but the only one who actually developed a system that last better is Hartech in the UK. I am not affiliated with them in any way, shape or form. But based on technology, they did something. There are still other inherrent problems in the (watercooled) engines to be solved, but Work is being done on those too.

As with many other cars, there are factors that influence on these conditions. Such as oil quality, oil changes, garage Queens (downtime), racing with oil starvation as a consequence, fresh oil before downtime, or semi-used oil before downtime and so on. Some Companies reshape the coolant channels to get better coolant flow to better the situations for the middle cylinders. Some Work on special extra oil injectors to cool them.

Willy nilly, it's his car. I just want to pass on the info for the sake of helping others.

And stick to Lotus

Kind regards,

Jacques

[Dan E]

Genuine truth I will send you a pic tomorrow when he turns up. I can't piss on his day, I did send him a text last night saying had he read about the IMS issue and he said he has. Yep top mate known for 35 years.  He also has always wanted one. It comes with warranty from specialist dealer but I am guessing that will only be 3 Months though. 

Its funny and I told @ChrisJ this story when we went to Top Gear when I first got the Esprit I was driving down a road and thought what the f&:k is that noise. Turned out to be someone using a garden strimmer! Now, do you know I am happy to drive it anywhere and I do. Got back from holiday and 10 mins later went out to buy some sausages in it. It has been restored by Barrie and GST and to be fair the Sparkster said it was a dream to drive and work on. 

 

[Jacques]

Ha ha. Well Andy, personally I agree. There are some ugly angles on the 911 and they look narrow up to a certain my.

But specials like the wtl and for example the dp flatnose turbo are nice, because they have turned the basic shape into something altered for the better.

The engines sounds nice, but are not so nice made. The almost vertical windscreen is another point. and of course the position of the engine.

But they do have their charm. That so many are made, does not in my view automatically make them worse or better, but the hysteria that circles around them are a bit too much, in my humble view. In this regard, you are absolutely right.

For example, last year my ex-911-996 owner friend and I went to Copenhagen Historic Grand Prix, a well known street race for a weekend in beginning of August.

We naturally approached the Porsche stand, and the Porsche Club Denmark stand, or rather large area, and the very minute they found out that I have an Esprit, and my friend had a 996, they stuck their noses high up in the sky, not wanting to speak to us at all. Seriously. it's THAT snobbish. How on Earth they think they have something to keep that snobbishness in, is beyond me. That does not make the 911 better or worse, but the thing is, that I believe that some people do not buy into the sportscar, but into the snobbery, to take part in that. It's just like the fairytale of "The Emperors new Clothes". If poo is promoted enough to be the new black, then people will buy into it. ;(

So, we approached the record holder of Le Mans, Mr. Tom Kristensen, and he took his time to chat, sign a cap for my friend and sign my Lotus Esprit book, as I explained to him, Lotus have had two Esprits in the Le Mans. No snobbery. Just a cheerfull friendly racing driver, WHO happens to be the best in the World these years. That speaks tonnes abut the attitude of some Porsche owners.

In my view Porsche is a lot of people having very few ideas, spending a lot of time and money to correct a basically wrong made streetcar to be great. Lotus is very few people spending very little money but with a lot of great ideas of how to convert a racing car into a true sportscar. The Esprit.

But that doesn't mean that the 911 is not a charming car. I think it is. As is the fiat 500 from the 1960'ies. Ugly, but charming. And the 911 can be a very efficient car in covering distances.

Kind regards,

Jacques

ps: I my add that I don't considder the Nissan GT-R a sportscar. Ultra fast and all, but it's a computergame made for the road by computer geeks. It's made from one idea from a sportscar guy, and then dissected by the army of shareholders and Black ties. Not by die-hard sportscar and racing fanatics, like ... Lotus. That it beats my Esprit in speed any day, is well, sign of time passing by. I have no problem with that. 35 years from now, they are exacltly as ugly and genderless. The Esprit will still be a spaceship that landed on Planet Earth 1'st of November 1972 onwards to 2004.

 

[Andyww]

1 hour ago, Jacques said:

There are some ugly angles on the 911

They are in the range 0 to 360 degrees

The engines sound like vacuum cleaners!

The snobbery thing is another Porsche trait. Ferrari owners do not behave in that way.

[LOTUSMAN33]

 Very interesting read guys, I have two friends with 996 porkers sat in their garages awaiting reasonable cost replacement engines. One went at 86k and the other one was around 70ish I think. I spoke to one of them recently and the cheapest motor he could find was £6k plus with resonable mileage. 

I owned a 1979 SC for a while and although I did enjoy the experience it handled awful and never turned heads like my 1984 Turbo I swapped it for. You live and learn in life so these days I would not look twice at one. One of the owners also owns a Boxster S which seems a much nicer car to own and drive. 

My 911 I swapped for the Turbo below back in 1995/6 

[Dan E]

@Vanya here you go as promised. What surprised me is it is not that quick, I reckon the BMW on the right which is a 330d with AC suspension would keep up with it on the twisty bits probably wrong but that's what it felt like.  Engine bay is a joke no space whatsoever. Not one rattle though. You can't even see the Esprit in the garage ?low is good 

[Barrykearley]

I'd be checking that block paved drive for oil stains

[Dan E]

Mate that drive is coming up, looks like a Tesco car park I hate brick drives,  just before The hideous wall on the left and the shitty cladding stuff, then the UPVC  windows. Potential they call it don't they! 

I will now exit stage right but I would quite like a 928 GTS manual. 

[Jacques]

Good looking car your friend has, Dan. But as an assurance, before driving too much so that a dealer may claim he didn't warm up the car propperly or what ever, have the camera stuck Down on those two middle cylinders, and eventually the IMS bearing looked at. That is a Little bigger longer proces. Peace of mind at least for a while is a good thing. What my is your friends car?

The 996 4S should have a 3,6 bored up from 3,4L displacement and 320 hp. No slouch, but not as fast as the Esprit Turbo SE, by far  Guess how I know?

Kind regards,

Jacques

[Dan E]

Just not Esprit special though is it. That's the point to me to be honest. 

[rocket63]

All seems a bit off topic to be fair

[franjipane]

I still find it strange that Esprits are so well recognised and much loved by so many yet Porsche command much higher prices.  Aside from the drive, just look at the how the silhouette of each has changed over the years... IMHO it's pretty obvious which is a better looking design.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jacques]

MMMMmmmmmmm  I agree.

I prefer Esprits to be affordable, but so should all the others be.

Come on, look at the last Picture of the latest Esprit in production, and tell me it won't sell?

Kind regards,

Jacques

[Vanya]

They command higher prices because the motor press is complicit in brown-nosing Porsche. They are cracking cars: under warranty. Which is I suppose implicit in the recommendations of Chris Harris and others of the same ilk - if you have a brand spanking new Porsche or a fantastic aftermarket warranty, it's gonna be a great car.

But that's like saying any flawed motor is fantastic...when it's working.

[Mark Blanchard]

Here's a 1988 X180 that made just £10k:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172812907599?redirect=mobile

[Barrykearley]

Looked great that one - sure it's been colour changed though.