Is electric really the answer?

[KAS-118]

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

Kas,

Respectfully, your responses are not all rational nor are they on topic (I'm a fine one to talk I know) . I am very happy for anyone on hear other than you to tell me I am wrong here. Because you'll be biased (I bet @Barrykearley will be the first to tell me lol)

Space on a street is NOT the only consideration for a charging facility. As I explained, there are lots of other considerations.

Your response to point 6 is hysterical or childish. I'm still debating which in my head.

To say if you haven't got the space to park your car then presumably you haven't got a car is, erm, an interesting point of view and makes me think you are not grounded in the reality of life for many not as fortunate as yourself. The point is not everyone who has a car has their own private space (garage, drive, land) to park a car on. Our streets are a war zone when it comes to resident parking in densely populated areas - again @NeilH gave a perfect example of the issue. Your assumption/presumption is just so wrong on so many different levels.

Your last point (9) - where in this "conversation" have I said any of those things? Where have I belittled BEV's etc? You are not responding to the comments I made in THIS conversation, but to other historical comments I have made in other conversations where I am clearly just winding up a fan boy.  For the record, I have NEVER said I do not have the space for a charger - the one thing I do have is space! So don't miss quote me please.

I did give you quite a bit of information, explaining WHY it is not just simply about space on the road and why it is not just easy to get on with it - I think you referred to that as me putting up hurdles. I thought I was providing some detail to support my argument. It's irrelevant I guess as you totally ignored it anyway, instead, bringing in new stuff to the conversation to deflect or divert.

I am trying to be respectful in this conversation. But you are making it hard with the "wise ass" responses at times and silly links. I know, not like me to stay on topic and be serious!

I appreciate a strong defence, it's all part of a healthy debate. But a strong/robust defence needs to have some intelligence applied to it.

My last point is simple. I do not like BEV's. I am very open and honest about it. But I do not like them ONLY because for me, they do not represent what I want a sports car to be. It is not about speed on it's own. It is about the pure driving experience and that is why I buy and drive Lotus cars for fun and enjoyment.  Yes, I'll probably end up with a BEV/PHEV/HFC at some point as that is the direction the world is going and I accept that. I don't have to like it though or relish it. But when I do buy one, I won't be buying it for MY driving pleasure. It will be a utility purchase to get from A to B, conveniently. My Lotus ICE will remain my "escape" and as I live far away from cities I'll enjoy it for some time to come.

I'm not sure why you take such exception to BEV baiting (not that any of my comments where that in this conversation). Surely there are better outlets where you will not have to argue with Neanderthals like me. This is a LOTUS forum for enthusiasts of the marque so I am struggling to see why you take so personally the berating of BEV's especially when you're own choice is to drive an ICE vehicle, not a BEV, and Lotus do not currently have a BEV on the road.  It's a bit like an Everton fan going onto a Liverpool fansite and expecting to be welcomed with open arms when you try to convert all the red to blue. 

C8RKH, with respect it is you appear to be self projecting again - and its a shame that you  resort to derisory insults to attempt to belittle someone who has a different view to you. Qus but in doing so you merely belittle yourself. I won't stoop to that level. 

You've complained that if you didn't have a drive or a garage then you your couldn't charge a EV.

I pointed out that that is factually wrong because there are on-street Chargers - and indeed Local Authorities are being encouraged to provide more.

However, your response to that is to say there may not be space - again, this is nonsense as if there is space for you to have on-street parking - then there is space for a charger. If there's not space for you to park a car, logically you wouldn't have one. 

But you now say that that doesn't follow - because 'the streets are a war zone'. Well, it still doesn't matter because the fact remain you either do have space to park, or you don't.  Sure, a person may have to park some distance away from there house - or even in a public carpark - or even at someone else's property. But either there is space to physically put the  car somewhere - or there is not and therefore that person won't have a car.

In the example Neal H gave, he said his brother had to park elsewhere. For your information that means that there was a place for him to park - sorry you didn't pick up on that. 

As to the "I did give you quite a bit of information, explaining WHY it is not just simply about space on the road and why it is not just easy to get on with it"...like wise I've explained to you that there are numerous on-street chargers and in respect of the Grid I've referred you to the Milton Keynes trial

As to 9) as far as I'm concerned 'the conversation' is this thread as a whole, and that has gone on for a number of posts and includes others and not just yourself - see for example Neal H's comments. 

As for 'misquoting' you - again, I think it's you who miss quote me. I never said you claimed not to have the space for a charger (although I do recall at the start of this thread you suggested how difficult home-charging was)  but on one hand it's suggested that there's no room 'on the streets' for chargers - and hence EV's are not practical - but there's plenty of examples of people owning a number of cars as 1 seems impractical for their needs. Well, where those people don't have off-load parking, then that raises issues of space as well doesn't it?

This thread is titled "Is Electric Really The Answer" and was in response about the banning of ICE - not whether or  to you enjoyed ICE's.

So far you've suggested Hydrogen Fuel Cells - what errrrrrhhhhhhh - is Electric - but I have to confess I can't recall you coming up with any other alternative?

I think we've established that you have a disdain for Electric Vehicles, but as far as I know , those who own the Tesla Roadster actually think they are fun. You haven't giving us your experience of them to say they were dull; nor have you identified anyone else who says this.

Clearly comparing a Tesla S or 3 with a 2-seater sports car isn't comparable -  but I do believe the Tesla 3 itself has been described as quite fun to drive - for a 4-door saloon.

I'm not sure why you find it necessary to 'bait' people on a topic, it's nice for you to admit that you do -  but you should really consider if that's a 'adult' thing to do? 

 

6 hours ago, Neal H said:

Have you owned a Lotus? If so, I think you’ll understand.

 

Sorry missed your post.

Yes I have thanks - a Europa S2 with Else conversion - bought it from Eagle Racing in Maidstone - who I note, aft6er a slight name change, now produce very expensive versions of the E-type.

My father also had an Elite 503 - which I also drove but did not own. 

Edited May 14, 2020 by KAS-118

[KAS-118]

27 minutes ago, ChrisJ said:

@KAS-118 - maybe missed this question?

Yes I did, and yes I've now answered it. 

However I, for one, am prepared to give Lotus the benefit of the doubt that they can produce a fun EV which has character. Indeed, test reviews consider the Tesla 3 Performance is quite fun (despite being a 4-door saloon) as indeed was the Roadster. 

The Porsche Taycan is also supposed to be quite a fun experience to drive.

So I'm not clear why, before Lotus have even produced one, people seem to think they're going to be dull and lack character.....?

I'm sure when Lotus went upmarket with the Esprit, Elite and Eclat people could have complained about the weight and size increase compared to the Elan or +2; but they turned out great cars. 

In any event, although people may mourn the passing of the ICE, it seems highly likely that it's going to happen - and a lot of people think Coronavirus is going to accelerate that process https://electrek.co/2020/05/14/volvo-ceo-pandemic-will-rapidly-accelerate-shift-to-electric-cars/

Frankly, I'd prefer Lotus to get be the cutting edge of technology, and not concentrate on something that is going to go the way of the Land Line or cassette tape player.

Edited May 14, 2020 by KAS-118

[Barrykearley]

50 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Well @Barrykearley you need to check your facts as I did not assume anything:  https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/square

 

You are frankly overlooking the fact that the four sided shape of colour could well associate as a 3, 5 or more sided shape depending on its present mental health well being. I’m not rising to this anymore and will simply lob all my toys out the pram. 🤭

as for electric vehicles - I followed one of those funny little BMW’s with skinny wheels in the Evora up the lanes here. He was thrashing the daylights out of it - wish I’d had a dash cam in the Evora - there was multiple times I thought he was going through the hedge. Had he had he sense to stop at the petrol station I’d have told him to buy a real car.

anyway I quite like our ev - but it’s not an ice. Driving an ev is like having a wank -  a Lotus is like a weekend away with a filthy slut.

[electro_boy]

@KAS-118 While in theory you are correct about the number and locations of the chargers in practice its not a adequate situation.  Electric chargers and petrol stations do not have the same usage model.  So a map showing evenly distributed charging stations across a town doesn't prove much.

While some BEV cars are capable of 300 miles of range, those are the top end models.  Majority of the cars being used at the moment probably have something like 80-120miles of range (Zoe, Leaf, i3 etc).  This means people are going to have to charge every couple of days because you have to keep some in reserve in case you need to make a unplanned journey.

If you don't have a charger on your street its going to become very unpractical to charge your car.  I'm not going to drive out to a charge point and wait for 30mins - 1hour for it to add a bit more, not even top it up fully.  I'm going to park my car a 10min walk away from my home to charge fully overnight.  I would happily charge my car while I pop to the supermarket but none of the supermarkets near my home or place of work have chargers.  I'm not going start  leaving my home 30mins earlier to meet up with mates so I can stop at the charger enroute to top up with juice. etc ...   Even if I did have a public charger on my road the prices tend to be far more expensive than the electricity in your home.  Now its been a over year since I did my research so prices could have changed.

A petrol station you rock up, fill up, pay and go. Even if there are a few people in front of you its no more than 10mins and you are back on your way.  So the even distribution works here but does not for electric charging.

I would love to get a BEV for everyday commuting, I really would, I've tried to fudge the figures to make it work.  But the fact is the cars are expensive and if you don't have a driveway  to charge your car it is pretty hard to make it work.

We need HUGE amounts of infrastructure in place to make BEV viable for the masses.  We need multiple chargers on every street, dedicated spots so the chargers are available, this is going to piss a lot of ICE drivers off as parking in many towns is very overcrowded.  We need workplaces to install chargers, we need supermarkets to install chargers, gyms, places you stop by for more than 15mins to install chargers.  So these things are all around our lives and makes it effortless to charge your car.

That is going to be massive ask.  The cost of putting these things in place.  The extra load on the national grid.  Figuring out a universal system for people to pay and charge their cars.  This is all possible but its a massive task!  It really is not that easy especially as you are going to have include local and national government in this process.

also lolz at @Barrykearley you do crack me up! 😂

[KAS-118]

The usage of Charging Points v Petrol Stations is different - that is very true.

But say it takes 5 mins to fill up with petrol and a 5 minute wait whilst someone in front of you pays for their groceries. So compared to a Tesla Supercharger that's 2 Petrol Cars compared to charging a Tesla 3 from 10-80%?

The number of charging points shown are for Public Chargers - as `i said most BEV's will be charged by Private ones - and they're not shown. 

Local Authorities are putting in on street charging points  https://www.croydon.gov.uk/transportandstreets/charging-points-for-electric-cars-and-vans- a lot of those on that mao are them https://www.croydon.gov.uk/transportandstreets/charging-points-for-electric-cars-and-vans; plus you get some 'semi-private' ones in Car Parks and hotels, supermarkets  etc. Where I work in Sweden it is common for EV points to be provided in company car parks;. So I'm afraid I don't accept your arguments it is such a huge thing. Sure, there is some work required, but the provision of cable TV and Fibre Optic cable also required that.

Indeed, where I live a few years ago all our street lamps were ripped out and replaced by LED ones - and by that I mean the actual lamp posts - again you could easily say that that was a mammoth task.

I think your 80-120 mile range is also based more on the older generation cars and not the new ones. Say something like am MG EV has a 163 miles range. If the average trip is 6 miles - then that's nearly 28 trips before needing to charge up.

As stated above, the Milton Keynes experiment is intended to use EV Cars to actually balance the requirements of the grid - not disrupt it.

So whilst I do appreciate what you say, the facts are that the co-operation between National and Local Government is happening, Local Authorities are being encouraged to install on-street chargers and there's also other charges being installed - and all this is happening now.

I don't see there being any issues in Payment at all - just use your phone or credit card. 

I do agree that there are no 'cheap' EV's - £25k is not cheap - but even that is likely to change in the next few years. 

In any event - what is your proposal - there is a clear intention by this Government and the EU to eventually Ban ICE cars. You're either going to have to think of something now that's better then a BEV (including the fuel supply issues - and hjydrogen fuel cells are certainly not looking favourable in that respect at the moment) - or you going to have to start adopting your infrastructure, Given you say that's a mammoth task, then surely we need to start doing that sooner rather than later?

 

 

[electro_boy]

Not everyone has a vehicle capable of using a Tesla charger.  Thats a very optimistic way to skew the figures in your favour.  If you want to convince people other than your self you have to take the pessimistic view and show how that is still super easy.  

yes my range is based on older cars because thats what the majority of people buy.  More 2nd cars are traded than brand new ones. 

Yes some hotels and supermarkets have them.   but its is far far from the majority.  I'm not going to buy an EV knowing its going to be a pain to charge for 2 years before the infrastructure is in place. 

For what its worth I think EV is the future but its not easy and viable now for the general public but you are talking like it is now.  I would like all the things you say to be reality everywhere around the country but it will take time.

 

Edited May 14, 2020 by electro_boy

[Neal H]

I had a look on the Kia site and the Kuna electric came out at £41k (including grants) and seems to have about 250 miles range - plus it will cost me £500 to have a home charger installed (including grant). The Kia looks an okay but unremarkable vehicle, and with a petrol engine it would probably cost half that. Until the cost dramatically drops, it’s hard to make a case for buying the electric version, particularly with patchy infrastructure. Unless your budget stretches to a Tesla, there’s no common standard  for chargers. It’s a mess and needs resolving now if mass adoption is meant to happen within 10 years or so.

I’d buy an electric car, but not yet. And I won’t pay a significant premium for one.

My point on “Have you owned a Lotus” is that a 2 ton practical 4 door hatchback will never be a sports car, so if you’re a car enthusiast there’s no such thing as one car that does it all and given that anything electric that is even half decent costs over £50k, it isn’t an option and also isn’t an option for those who just want practical transport at a reasonable price.

[KAS-118]

8 hours ago, electro_boy said:

Not everyone has a vehicle capable of using a Tesla charger.  Thats a very optimistic way to skew the figures in your favour.  If you want to convince people other than your self you have to take the pessimistic view and show how that is still super easy.  

yes my range is based on older cars because thats what the majority of people buy.  More 2nd cars are traded than brand new ones. 

Yes some hotels and supermarkets have them.   but its is far far from the majority.  I'm not going to buy an EV knowing its going to be a pain to charge for 2 years before the infrastructure is in place. 

For what its worth I think EV is the future but its not easy and viable now for the general public but you are talking like it is now.  I would like all the things you say to be reality everywhere around the country but it will take time.

 

Actually, there are other fast chargers - not just Tesla Chargers - and those fast chargers are available now. I'm not here to 'convince' anyone - answering a question as to whether Electric is there answer - seeing that ICE is going to be banned. 

I disagree with your comments that most people couldn't use electric cars now - I think that they could - the decision as to whether they do so now is entirely up to them. I for instance, haven't gone to Electric yet because 1) my current car has only done 12k so there's no need for me to change it yet and 2) there's nothing that appeals to me enough. However, my next car is very likely to be Electric - and whilst I don't believer the Charging matter is such a pain as you think it is, I do agree that as more people get EV's then more chargers will be required.

However, for the present number of EV's, people who actually use them seem to cope fine.

[KAS-118]

7 hours ago, Neal H said:

I had a look on the Kia site and the Kuna electric came out at £41k (including grants) and seems to have about 250 miles range - plus it will cost me £500 to have a home charger installed (including grant). The Kia looks an okay but unremarkable vehicle, and with a petrol engine it would probably cost half that. Until the cost dramatically drops, it’s hard to make a case for buying the electric version, particularly with patchy infrastructure. Unless your budget stretches to a Tesla, there’s no common standard  for chargers. It’s a mess and needs resolving now if mass adoption is meant to happen within 10 years or so.

I’d buy an electric car, but not yet. And I won’t pay a significant premium for one.

My point on “Have you owned a Lotus” is that a 2 ton practical 4 door hatchback will never be a sports car, so if you’re a car enthusiast there’s no such thing as one car that does it all and given that anything electric that is even half decent costs over £50k, it isn’t an option and also isn’t an option for those who just want practical transport at a reasonable price.

Actually its all about lifestyle choices isn't it.

You see 2-seater sports cars (and I've had a couple) are great fun. But then there comes a time when you do hobbies, where you need a lot of stuff, or you have a family, so you need more than 2 seats, you might need to take a dog to the vets etc. So you buy something with more than 2 seats as well.

Then you end up with parking problems - especially in London and Greater London. Either you leave one on the road or park one in front of the other - and it all just gets a bit of a pain, so you end up not using the 2-seater at all.

But that means you end up driving a soulless machine 95% of the time - and having money tied up in something sitting in the garage doing nothing very much - and when you want to use it, the batteries flat, the brakes have seized etc.

So, you can continue with this - or  find something that does have character, but you can use it 100% of the time. Is it as fun as a 2-seater sports car - no; but actually it can get to 90-95%.

So, where as you believe that a 'real' car enthusiast drives something they find fun the minority of the time - I think a car enthusiast would want to drive something that is nearly as fun 100% of the time.

By the way - have you ever owned something with an Alfa V6 engine in it?

As to you view that something that costs over £50k and isn't practical is not an option for most people - I agree. But then clearly, if everyone thought that and refused to buy a car over £50k that was not practical - then Lotus wouldn't sell many cars would they?

However, going back to the title thread, well, the majority of people do actually have off road parking, there are street and communal/public chargers - and most journeys are easily within the range of an EV. So, the majority of the people, the majority of the time, could live with an EV if they were so minded,

Do I think more public charging points are required - yes.

Do I think everyone should rush out and bye an EV now - No.

Do I think it would be good if there were cheaper EV's - yes.

 

 

[C8RKH]

@KAS-118 your last responses have been off the scale. Argumentative and aggressive. I think you need to tone it down or piss off as you are not actually being rationale. I really am done with you as you do seem incapable of holding a rationale conversation.

I'll piss off too to keep it fair. I'm done. Lifes too short. Bye all.

[KAS-118]

@C8RKH - still self projecting again!?

 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

To me this whole topic is as dull as ditchwater, but I did note the comment about the Alfa V6 engine. Here you have to be more specific and single out the Busso V6, which is a magnificent creation. Our family had Busso V6 In both the Alfa 164 and 166 Lusso In the past. I loved driving the manual 3.0 164 the best, even though it was practically worthless at the time. Fabulous engine with a wonderful sound and not bad handling for a big FWD Luxo barge. 
 

A few years later my brother bought a mint 159 3.2 V6 Q4 Manual estate. A beautiful looking thing on the optional tele-dials. He took me out in it for the first time and we pulled away from a dual carriageway roundabout. When he got going and fancying a bit of a shove in the back I told him to “floor it”. “I am”, came the embarrassed reply. I couldn’t believe it. There was no urgency, no aural drama, nothing. Turns out Alfa had binned the Busso for that model and turned to some generic (GM?) V6 unit which had no redeeming features whatsoever for the enthusiast. It was the perfect example of a car having its heart and soul taken away. I was never fussed about going out in it after that.

[Neal H]

As a petrolhead it pains me that in the past 40 years there hasn’t been an Alfa that I’d actually want to buy, but the Guilia Quadrifoglio changes that and is on my radar to perhaps be the last petrol car I own before the inevitable move to electric, with late used ones being available for under £40k.

If I decided to buy just one ‘interesting’ do it all car, then I have a number of good new petrol options at around £30k - Renaultsport  Magane, Golf GTi/R etc. Not sports cars, but fun none the less. There’s nothing in the current electric range to compete with these in either ability, entertainment or price.

I have no doubt that within the next 10 years that I will be driving an electric car, but I wouldn’t buy one now for the following reasons:

1) The price premium for a largely mediocre range is far too high.

2) The driving range (whilst improving all the time) isn’t there yet.

3) Unless you buy a Tesla the infrastructure is inadequate with no common standard.

4) While the future is electric, the technology which will win out is unclear to me. While everything points to battery, hydrogen seems to hold many advantages (particularly to the lack of infrastructure problem) IF the technical problems with it can be overcome. I think huge advances with both technologies will happen over the next 5 to 10 years.

Electric is the future,  but by definition, the future isn’t now.

@C8RKH Don’t drop out of the debate, I find your perspective interesting.

[KAS-118]

@LotusLeftLotusRight I was talking about the 2.5V6 Busso and the 2.5V6 24-valve

Yes, I ended up keeping the 156 a lot longer than I was intending because when I went out in the 159Q4 EVERYTHUNG about that car was wrong - the engine didn't rev; the steering lacked feel and the chassis didn't talk to you.

However, the point being that whilst 2-seaters are indeed fun; just because something is a 4-door saloon doesn't mean a car can'y have great character.

Neal H suggest that you can't have a car that has both character and a degree of practicality - my view is that he's mistaken.

Indeed, the Lotus Elite, Eclat and Excell all were reasonably practicable - but also were great fun too. 

[Neal H]

14 minutes ago, KAS-118 said:

@LotusLeftLotusRight

Neal H suggest that you can't have a car that has both character and a degree of practicality - my view is that he's mistaken

That’s not my view at all. My Focus RS and the various Renaultsport Clio’s I’ve owned over the years all had character and were practical. My view is that none of them are sports cars and if you want a proper sports car then assuming you also need practical, you have little choice but to own multiple cars and if one of those is going to be electric, there is much progress that still needs to be made with them.

[KAS-118]

21 hours ago, Neal H said:

Indeed I am prepared to own two cars, plus a motorbike.

The trouble with owning a Lotus is that once you’ve done it your perception of “fun” car is raised to another level and you realise that a fast hatchback no longer cuts it. I owned a Lotus 2-11 alongside a Focus RS as my daily, but the Focus felt like I was driving a truck next to the Lotus and once the novelty value of the acceleration wore off, I was quickly bored with it.

Have you owned a Lotus? If so, I think you’ll understand.

 

11 hours ago, Neal H said:

My point on “Have you owned a Lotus” is that a 2 ton practical 4 door hatchback will never be a sports car, so if you’re a car enthusiast there’s no such thing as one car that does it all 

@Neal H, perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying!?

However, what is 'practical' is of course down to the individual - as indeed so is what is fun.

For example, a Caterham owner may think that your Elise is too much of a compromise.

An Evora is also more practical then a Elise - but i my view its still more of a sports car than a GT.

Likewise, the Elite, Eclat and Excell were even more practical than an Evora - but still can be considered 'Sports Cars - for me they have all the practicality that I would need.

So I disagree with you - you can have a 'one- car' that "does it all" for a car enthusiast. 

[Barrykearley]

4 hours ago, KAS-118 said:However, for the present number of EV's, people who actually use them seem to cope fine.

Careful - our old Nissan Leaf towards the end of our ownership was a complete pain in the ass - range was crap and charging network is clunky at best. 
Our Kona will do 300 in the summer 230 in the winter - it’s fine. But using it for a long journey needing a charge stop is a pain in the ass.

[eUKenGB]

We seem to have moved away from the discussion of electric propulsion.

[KAS-118]

True - the original question was 

"Is it wise to put all "our" faith in electric only cars which will require probably 25 million charging stations minimum from 11 thousand today. Shouldn't we also be looking at other alternatives hydrogen maybe or even liquid nitrogen :-"

So, as things stand at the moment, non-Petrol/Diesel propulsion is either:

1) Battery Electric - what for cars is currently the favoured alternative fuel choice;

2) Hydrogen Fuel Cell - which is still actually electric - is being looked at, but the general consensus is its more suitable for large commercial vehicles or power generation itself;

3) Hydrogen being combusted directly in an engine - this once was looked at but I'm not aware of any significant investigation going on at it at the moment; or

4) Liquid Nitrogen.

Hydrogen as a fuel has storage issues, there is concern you need to use a lot of power to extract it, water vapour is a green house gas and for its mass it doesn't give much power. You need a whole new infrastructure to provide it - it is bulky and therefore inefficient to transport. 

Liquid Nitrogen I know little about, other than would imagine it takes a lot of energy to keep it in Liquid State - and you would also need a whole new infrastructure to supply it.

BEV, has most research going on at the moment. You can charge from home - as long as there is electricity in the area you can provide a charger - and indeed some Charging Stations are using solar to power these. The BEV vehicle can be used as a power storage device itself - and hence balance the Grid better. More and more chargers are being installed; battery performance is improving and battery costs are set to fall.

So, given the fact that it takes time to plan ahead - and be prepared for the ICE being banned - to me it seems a no-brainer in what the Government should be investing in now. Indeed, if I were a manufacturer who was brining out a new range of cars - I would be diverting my research into BEV's and not producing new chassis for ICE.

 

[Neal H]

@eUKenGB Yes, but the thread heading "Is electric really the answer". I think the conclusion is yes, but the question about whether it's practical on a large scale right now is subject of much debate!

I'm not anti-electric at all, I believe I will be driving one in the next five to ten years. I'm as interested as anyone whether it will be battery, hydrogen or some hybrid of the two. I think the next five to ten years will provide the answer. In the meantime, I think one last petrol hurrah in a V6 Turbo Alfa Guilia Quadrifoglio may be the ideal solution while I wait and see 😀

@KAS-118 The Evora is the most practical car Lotus make (I know, I've owned two). I tried living with one as my only car for a while, but if you need to carry more than one passenger or make trips to the tip, it simply isn't practical enough (unfortunately). What it is, is a sublime sports car on a level that a Golf GTi or Renaultsport Megane (or even a Quadrigfolio) can never be. So if I want the Evora experience (or Elise experience or Caterham experience) then I need something in addition to do the practical stuff - I need to compromise (Compromise - a solution no one is happy with).

We'll have to agree to disagree on whether one car can be all things to all men (or women).

 

[eUKenGB]

I am firmly of the opinion that one car (or motorcycle) will NEVER be enough to satisfy all my requirements, whether that be ICE or electric. However the majority of car users, in the UK at least, have no interest in cars and hence are quite happy with just one.

Nitrogen powered cars have again been mentioned. It is easier to deal with than Hydrogen, but I am still at a loss as to how it could be used to power anything since it is fundamentally fairly inert. Just what is the chemistry behind its use as a fuel?

I am also at odds with many here in that I see no reason why 'thrill' and 'fun' and the term 'driving experience' are the sole preserve of an ICE powered vehicle. If the car handles great and goes like stink, AFAIC that trumps any ICE powered lumbering behemoth. IOW, the performance is what it's all about, not how you achieve it.

Clutch, changing gears and the howl of a multi-cylinder ICE are just part of the zeitgeist and will simply turn into anachronisms as people get used to their elimination. In years to come, no-one will bemoan their loss. Why fight it now. They serve no useful purpose. I defy anyone to drive the new Eviya and not honestly find it thrilling to drive, despite its lack of the above characteristics. Those who continue to deny that an EV can provide an even better 'driving experience' are fooling themselves with their own rose tinted spectacles of nostalgia - which of course is not what it used to be. 😀

Edited May 15, 2020 by eUKenGB

[KAS-118]

I see there's been yet another announcement of the Government aiming to get at least 6 EV Charging Points in every Service Station within the next 3 years; and providing 6,000 Rapid Chargers of 150-350KW by 2035.

It's estimated that they could provide enough charge for a 120 to 145 mile range in 15mins.

However, the article also says that it may enable the ban of ICE cars to be brought forwards.

https://www.pocket-lint.com/cars/news/152205-uk-government-reveals-ambitious-plans-for-new-rapid-charge-points-countrywide

[KAS-118]

More information about Tesla's new battery - which is anticipated to be released in China, later this year - with then a further improved version to be released to the rest of the world after that.

This should hopefully enable the complaints about EV's being to expensive to be addressed.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/tesla/

[KAS-118]

One of the things 'petrol heads' often complain about Electric Vehicles is the lack of sound.

I think a lot of what sounds 'right' is due to conditioning - i.e. we associate certain sounds with certain things and the louder the sound the more powerful we think whatever is making it is. 

Whilst I would agree that a 'throaty' roar of a V8 or V12 can sound intoxicating - and add to the sense of occasions - noise itself, especially loud noise, can be considered to some extent undesirable. Take for instance the next door neighbour who plays music loud - it may be heaven to them, but less so to those who live adjacent them.

However, what sounds we may associate with certain objects can change - perhaps an obvious example from the 20th Century is the aeroplane, I'm sure we all love the sound of a Merlin Engines Spitfire - but we now associate the (perhaps more unpleasant) sound of a jet as something which is faster and more powerful.

Whilst sound may, in some cases, be undesirable, it is still one of the human senses - and enables us to 'hear' danger. Hence, there are requirements for EV's that are travelling less than 20-30km/hr to emit some type of noise.

I therefore think its interesting what the engineers at Polestar (who like Lotus are owned by Geely) are doing. The sounds (both forward and reverse) can be heard here https://www.polestar.com/uk/news/the-sounds-of-the-polestar-2?utm_medium=crm&utm_source=em&utm_campaign=pcid_3483_41263_85343_206342_o_hq_1local_crm_em&utm_content=ad

To my ears, the 'forward' has a futuristic 'space-ship' sound - similar to what you might hear in a Sci-Fi mover such as a Star Wars Landspeeder - so I guess Fiction is becoming Fact. 

I'm sure its not going to  be to everyones liking - but I can't help but think that similar to the planes of the past, compared to the present, it may be something that we'll get used to. 

[dave excell]

While I was taking part in  L'Eroica  bike event in Italy we spent a day in Florence where a majority of vehicles in the center were electric. The noise was dreadful, as all electric vehicles were emitting beeping signals to warn pedestrians of there approach. Atmosphere was cleaner though. However as more contamination is produced in the manufacturer of the batteries than running an ICE for the lifetime of the vehicle moves the crap to a different part of the world. A bit of not in my back yard syndrome.