Is electric really the answer?

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Here’s a thing. In India no-one has an estate car. It’s either saloon, hatchback or SUV. I don’t think any manufacturer sells an estate. There is zero demand.

[Bibs]

I wouldn't want to work in a Volvo dealership there

[webfoot]

..... well you can't buy a Volvo estate in the UK anymore (unless you are the Police).  SUVs only.

[Kimbers]

No, Police are XC SUV models now.

[webfoot]

I was just going by this report...

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/suvs/youll-still-be-seeing-volvo-estates-and-saloons-police-cars-uk

[exeterjeep]

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/bentley-performs-u-turn-on-pledge-to-stop-ice-manufacturing-by-2030/299479

Bentley performs U-turn on pledge to stop ICE manufacturing by 2030
Luxury car maker rethinks deadline vow for transition to all-electric
Bentley says it’ll maybe make hybrids for ‘one or two years’ more than planned
It cites increased demand for hybrids after government postponed 2030 ban
Manufacturer also reveals decrease in operating profit for 2023

[JimmytheTurbo]

On 01/03/2024 at 14:21, C8RKH said:

Can you be specific as regards the "we" you refer to?

Is it in a specific region? A specific race?

It cannot be "we" as in the human race, as there is no decline in overall population, it is still growing as fast as ever. 

 

 

Edited March 22 by JimmytheTurbo

[eUKenGB]

2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

And remind us again of the "range" when towing something of substance, either for the Eletre or the Emeya?

Like an ICE vehicle, range is reduced, but depending on what one wants to tow and where, that may or may not be relevant.

Don't assume everyone needing a towbar is wanting to go on a long distance caravan touring holiday. I have a number of trailers to carry e.g. motorcycles, garden rubbish and other items and none of that use involves any long distances.

I've had a towbar on a car for probably 50 years - not the same car, obviously 😀. I want to maintain that facility and an EV can provide EXACTLY what I want in that regard. As long as it is capable of having a towbar fitted and nowadays that depends on how a car is homologated and not on whether a nearby towbar supplier can weld up something suitable.

I fully understand that some people have no interest in any towing facility at all. That's their business. But don't assume your lack of interest defines what others should or should not be able to do with their car.

[C8RKH]

Didn't really answer my question.

So I decided to find out through google and it seems that a 30% reduction in WLTP is a fairly acceptable average - depending on weight the range is reduced by around 18% to 35% in real life.

So that would take your 250 - 300 miles expected range to around 180-200 miles.

This compares similarly to an ICE which is typically 20-30% on average.

So that would take your typical diseasel's towing range from c. 600 miles to around 400 miles.

Sometimes people ask a question because they want an answer. I never assume anything, if I can help it. I probably should have just googled it from the get go.

 

 

[eUKenGB]

27 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Didn't really answer my question.

So I decided to find out through google and it seems that a 30% reduction in WLTP is a fairly acceptable average - depending on weight the range is reduced by around 18% to 35% in real life.

So that would take your 250 - 300 miles expected range to around 180-200 miles.

This compares similarly to an ICE which is typically 20-30% on average.

So that would take your typical diseasel's towing range from c. 600 miles to around 400 miles.

Sometimes people ask a question because they want an answer. I never assume anything, if I can help it. I probably should have just googled it from the get go.

 

 

Fair enough. I assumed you were simply taking your usual pop at EVs. 😀

My point is that range reduction, either ICE or EV is irrelevant when the distance involved is less than whatever that range is. Also, different people have very different usage requirements for towing.

When I want to take a lot of garden rubbish to the tip in the trailer we use for that purpose, the 5 mile journey means ultimate range is utterly irrelevant. However whether the car can have a towbar fitted (the Taycan can't) is absolutely crucial.

So I'm surprised and delighted that the Emeya can have the towbar. Effect on range is totally irrelevant.

[Bibs]

Towing capacity on EV's is a factor of the weight with trailer/load. My Kia had zero towing capacity. Basicallly the motors would be overloaded with anything other than the weight of the car when braking (eg using the motors) but manufacturers are getting smarter now knowing that actually be able to tow is very useful to many people. Porsche & Kia clearly didn't get that memo, or chose to ignore it. 

[C8RKH]

12 hours ago, eUKenGB said:

Fair enough. I assumed you were simply taking your usual pop at EVs

You know what they say when people "assume".

If by having a pop you mean I question and validate and challenge a lot of the bullshit spouted re EVs then I'm guilty of nothing more than just not blindly swallowing the rhetoric and false publicity around them to date.

It doesn't mean I am against them. 

Indeed as I have pointed out several times I make money from providing and supporting EV infrastructure.

I'm just not prepared to let the bullshit slide.

You'll remember the posts with a vociferous EV fan boy of a couple of years back. Everything was "just around the corner" to make the EV world glorious. Where's those graphene batteries that were the panacea for all ills? Total BS but the fan boy could not be persuaded 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣

[eUKenGB]

By the same token, I cannot help but point out the nonsense, falsehoods and many lies constantly spouted by the anti-EV brigade that are far more prolific.

To be honest, I very rarely come across an EV promoter actually stating falsehoods, but that is massively prevalent from the aforementioned anti-EV crowd who are prone to distort the truth and even lie. So much so that there are groups who have got together specifically to try and correct all the misinformation being spread about EVs that is rife on the Internet, some out of sheer ignorance and a lot from those following their own financial and/or political agenda.

One of my favourites was a claim (by an American) that oil is not a 'finite' resource as it is being constantly produced within the Earth, so basically we can never run out. He was quite serious about this, apparently ignorant of the several billion years out of sync his fantasy was.

Whatever ones point of view regarding EVs, truth and the facts are all that's important (and towbars 😀). Everything else is just opinion.

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, eUKenGB said:

To be honest, I very rarely come across an EV promoter actually stating falsehoods

I did laugh with you on that. You obviously read only a selected set of materials.

The bullshit is strong on both sides Ken.

[Kimbers]

For me the issue's highlighted by both of you is pertinent.

@eUKenGB you are right 100%. If your battery charge is further than your drive then the issue isn't relevant....until you arrive at your campsite and they don't have a charger. I think @C8RKH point was that at least with the Petrol/Diesel you still have 200 miles left, whereas with your EV you will be looking around for a charge point. And we all know that once you talk about charging away from home you are talking on average around 50% more expensive per mile than filling up with fuel. 

However the other point to make is what if you do need to do more than 180-200 miles? We often go oooop north for our breaks. Even a long weekend becomes a chore having to stop and charge twice on the way up. There's a time and buggery factor with EV's. And don't get me started on fast charging. It really doesn't exist outside of home chargers.

@C8RKH has actually said there is a place for EV's as city run arounds. But then the cost comes into it. You can buy a lot cheaper City run around as an ICE car or even PHEV.

I know I, like others are not on sceptical but downright negative about EV's. But there aren't many out there with a real life experience like me. We run 7000 cars and 1000 vans and believe me when I say we have tried EV's even as recently as a year ago. Still suffering trying to sell them and limit our losses to 4 figures a car. They are just not where they need to be yet and, dare I say it, won't be for another 10 years at least.

There is a phrase being linked more and more to EV's in the Car industry "Betamax".

[eUKenGB]

3 hours ago, C8RKH said:

I did laugh with you on that. You obviously read only a selected set of materials.

The bullshit is strong on both sides Ken.

Well I beg to differ, but you're entitled to your opinion.

[C8RKH]

Ken, I'll not want to poke the fire which is why I have been saying both sides are equally as bad, it's a shame you can't meet me in the middle on that.

So given that... 

There is a huge amount of EV bullshit even on here. The fact that you choose to substantiate your points with "use cases" that prove your point within a narrow use banding, and then don't see the irony in that, I find amusing.

As I have said before, unlike most people on here who are EV fans, I actually make money out of EV's, so I have no real axe to grind against them, other than, they are far from where they need to be to be considered of real value to the net zero goals and objectives we seek. They are currently, in the main, a highly flawed product, too expensive, and hugely inefficient. However, with time, that will change. Of that I am sure.

I see a distinct use point for them, and have made the case for them many, many times, even on here. In fact, an article I wrote on the current state of EV's was actually the number #1 referenced article on google for some months on EVs. It pointed out the pro's of EV's but the deficiencies in the current designs and the infrastructure to support them.

EV's are ideal for people who live in towns and cities and who have the space to park and put in their own charging infrastructure, or, have access to workplace chargers that they can use instead. Currently, for the majority of people in towns and cities who live in terraced housing or apartments/flats they are in practical, due to the lack of ability to charge. Many people laud kerbside charging but these are usually people who don't have to use them. For instance, a significant proportion of the lamp posts in the UK have had their power reduced, as councils have, over the last 10 years or so switched to low energy lighting. And yet, a considerable number of EV fans continue to laud how charging from lamp posts will be the answer. In the majority of the cases it is just utter nonsense. EV washing. As the infrastructure just does not exist to support it. And yet, we are constantly told it is. If that is not a clear example of the bull shit I don't what is.

EV's are not currently a substitute for anyone who needs to tow or hump large amounts of stuff about - indeed, many of the van fleets are seeing their Ford Transits averaging only 80 miles per day on a full load and it is hurting them hugely. The density of the batteries, and their weight, is a significant hindrance to the range - essentially it is simple physics. But still we get the nonsense that BEV vans are the way to go.

Until battery density increases, and we get the correct power to weight ratios, BEV vans will just continue to be a complete and utter waste of money and resources. They might make us feel good, but their lifespan will be short and then we'll need to do deal with the waste.

For balance, ICE is not perfect. It's dirty. But it is what it is. We have the infrastructure in place to support it and we have enough oil to carry on for a hundred years, and more. However, that is just not sustainable and so we do need to change. I have never denied that, and I have indeed made the point for change on here, and elsewhere, time and time again.

But that change will not be a 100% shift to BEV. Hybrids, using in the near term synthetic fuels, and hydrogen fuel cells (used to create the electricity for electric motors), will take up a considerable market share, especially where towing and weight carrying is concerned. At best, I see BEV's having no more than 40% of the market by 2030. That leaves 60% that will be ice, hybrid and hydrogen.

I do take exception to being labelled as always having a pop at EV's when apart from the odd sarky comment, a lot of my posts have i think been balanced, and the negatives have been explained. However, I suspect you do it for effect, knowing you'll get a response, and I'm always happy to oblige

It seems that for some, merely not just bowing my head, and sucking all the kool-aid around EV's makes me an evil monster. Well, so be it. 

And, anyone who splashes out £100k to £180k+ on a BEV, right now, is just a fool. @Kimbers reference, for the current crop and version of BEVs, as "Betamax" is quite right in my very humble opinion. However, we each have the right to spend our money the way we wish, and so I respect that right. But then I can still call them a fool! It's only a name, after all. And they can of course disagree, and call me any name they wish, right back

 

 

And. There is 

[910Esprit]

I have no personal interest or beef with electric cars, but the Betamax analogy is flawed!   VHS won the war, but Betamax was almost certainly superior to VHS in most aspects apart from price.   (The family business sold video recorders)  

[Kimbers]

We don't say it because EV's are Superior, we all know they aren't, we say it because in 10 years time or so they will be extinct in the current form and anyone who wasted their money on them will lose it. 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Just an aside about fleet vehicles. Are employers expecting their company car / van driving employees to charge their EVs overnight at home, ready for the next day’s work? If so how does that work from a billing point of view? Also what if they have no access to home charging?

[Kimbers]

Salary sacrifice and company cars are currently virtually every single EV sold. in ICE and Diesel cars the mix Retail to Fleet is about 50/50 dependent on which manufacturer it is.

However if you look at EV's its about 10/90 overall. Hence why discounts are increasing. 

However as you point out, the price of the vehicle is not the only factor. For example, we use Govt recommended reclaims which means we get less per mile on an EV than we do on an ICE or Diesel AND yet to fill up on a motorway or outside your home there is a premium cost of 30-50% more per mile than it costs you to fill up with Petrol. So if I do 100 miles in my PHEV/Petrol I claim £13, if I do the same in an EV I get £9. However if I filled up with Electric at a Fuel station the actual costs are 7-9ppm Petrol and up to as much as 17ppm Electric.

So to answer your question, many who use EV's are losing out doubly to save on company car tax. Company Car Tax BTW which is doubling year on year for the next 3 years. 1% to 2% to 4% then in Year 4 another 50% increase to 6%. Only saving you 2% of the much more useable PHEV models (My Sportage is 8%)

Government figures for Companies to use below:

[Escape]

On 25/03/2024 at 13:06, eUKenGB said:

To be honest, I very rarely come across an EV promoter actually stating falsehoods

I'll name the elephant in the room, one they're all guilty of: Zero Emissions. A very convenient lie! And a pet peeve of mine.
They're not, not even close. Zero tailpipe emissions yes, but that's just a small part of the total lifecycle emissions. And then there's the fact that there's more about the environment than emissions, so claiming EVs will save the planet (as the current mantra still seems to be) constitutes a falsehood in my book (certainly at this point in time).

[C8RKH]

You're spot on @Escape but the problem is your views will have you labelled as "Filip the Heretic" as you refuse to worship at the EV pulpit.

I have said this so many times - "replacing 30m ICE vehicles (the majority still with years, decades even, of useful life left in them, early, with 30m EV's is NOT, and has never been, an environmentally sound or reasoned argument".

The sheer volume of NEW resources that will need to be mined, extracted, refined, and processed, and the huge amount of energy needed to do that, just for the cars, is staggering. As is the impact of this on the environment. All of this is totally discounted, or brushed aside, as NOT being relevant by the EV fan boys, whilst at the same time, they pronounce that Hydrogen, for example, will never work and is a non starter due to the energy required to extract it.  @eUKenGB this is ONE prime example of the one sided bullshit from the EV sector. Hydrogen extracted using excess wind energy is a super low carbon footprint.

Now, add in the amount of infrastructure that needs to be provided to support those 30m EV's.  A few million Chargepoints. 45m Charging cables (tethered and in car). A couple of million cubic meters of concrete. Cabling to local transformers. New transformers. Underground and overground electricity grid upgrades. Etc etc.  

Then we have to deal with the batteries once they are kaput in the car. Despite the BS spouted on here 4 years ago, the technology and recycling facilities are nowhere near, still, capable of dealing with the volume of batteries that will be discarded.

When you add ALL of this NEW stuff together, the environmental impact and cost, just in the UK, is absolutely huge. It's mega. The issue is that most of this stuff is NOT being counted in the net zero target calculations.

Yes, of course, dirty ICE needed all of that new infrastructure too. But that has been built over 70 years with most of the environmental impact from the infrastructure now being "sunk" and no longer "impacting".  Retiring or dismantling this infrastructure, way before the end of it's useful life, just adds more to the environmental impact. So it reduces are ability to really hit Net Zero.

So in effect, what we are "trading", is the emissions produced by ICE now, against the full scale replacement of the infrastructure and vehicles with electric. There is now way that this will deliver a Net Zero result in the next 50 years. Unless of course, we continue to "fiddle" the calculations to make them fit and produce the answer we desire.

We do need change. But that change should be coming by reducing the number of vehicles on the road. Reducing the number of vehicle miles travelled. By avoiding having to build 30m BEV's, and the associated infrastructure required, AND, taking ICE vehicles off the road, I would argue that we would reach a true Net Zero result faster.

But this will require significant investment in public transport, and improvement to the roads environment in our towns and cities, to encourage more walking, cycling, and use of said public transport.

We are so far away from a sensible approach that it hurts.

Meanwhile, people are shelling out £100k plus on Glory Wagons that weigh well in excess of 2.5 tons, with a huge manufacturing footprint and hugely inefficient "range", because it gives them prestige. It has absolutely fook all to do with the environment - it is bragging rights and the ability to offset tax through salary sacrifice. Let's stop kidding ourselves and be honest.

[Kimbers]

"Meanwhile, people are shelling out £100k plus on Glory Wagons that weigh well in excess of 2.5 tons"

That has ever been the way! BMW X series, Audi Q7, Rollers, Bentleys etc all rely on the badge and prestige rather than the actual driveability and practicality of the cars.

Lets face it, there is nothing a KIA Sportage GT Line S doesn't have that most of the glory wagons do. In fact its likely it actually has some things as standard that are optional extras on the glory wagons and its over £100,000 cheaper than them, more economical, lighter and an absolute joy to drive. It only has 264HP which is a slight difference but weighing a ton less its nearly as quick!

[C8RKH]

8 minutes ago, Kimbers said:

"Meanwhile, people are shelling out £100k plus on Glory Wagons that weigh well in excess of 2.5 tons"

Agreed Tony, my point was that in this instance they are doing it and then trying to justify their decision based on "green" credentials which is total horse shit.

I have more respect for the people who buy 5.0 ltr Range Rovers, Bentayga's and the ilk as they are not trying to "greenwash" and are just sticking up two fingers and saying I bought it cos I could and wanted to. Honesty!