Fuel Grades

[mr.oogieboogie]

Always use 99ron from tesco. No issues and big flames

[slewthy]

Big flames? Flame thrower?

What are you guys talking about?

[Bibs]

[slewthy]

Ooooookay.....nice picture, erm..

So is it just turbo charged engines that do this?

[steve930]

Ooooookay.....nice picture, erm..

So is it just turbo charged engines that do this?

naturally apspirated engines can also do this, but normally when the engine is running in a high state of tune & the flames can be sporadic

Turbo cars especially if tuned will do this more often. My old 911 turbo which was producing 475 rwhp would throw 1metre flames out of both tailpipes each time you lifted off the throttle after being on boost. I was always getting aggro from the police for this

[Guest surferphil]

If your engine has an ECU it will advance or retard the ignition timing to optimise safe power. A low octane fuel is less stable and will cause knock (detonation) which the ECU will sense and retard the timing to a safe level, giving less power delivery and less fuel economy.

If you have a turbo then the difference will be greater as you are burning more fuel/producing more power.

If your engine isn't able to burn much fuel because the timing is retarded, then it may inject less fuel (dependant on the ECU design and sensors). However on wide open throttle some ECU's will just throw as much fuel into the cylinder as possible with the boost on full and just throw the unburned fuel out the exhaust pipe which then ignites when it gets fresh air, hence Bibs Top Gun style afterburners.

RON Ratings tend to be within a range as they cannot deliver exactly the specific amount to the pump, which make Shell more honest than most about what they are selling. I find BP expensive and their fuel noticeably crap often with no high octane option.

I once bought petrol from an old garage that looked like it belonged in a museum and my car didn't run well at all until I filled up back in the City. I always avoided these old places since, not that I see them any more. I think you are better off with the higher octane, if its all old fuel then you really don't want what started of as 95 RON when it was new.

[MrDangerUS]

Don't use any petrol containing ethanol!

Your tanks will turn into a pile of rust. In US, all petrol stations (except very few)sell 10% E fuel. Tank refurb shops are doing a great business here! In addition, ethanol ruins rubber seals and causes aluminium pitting.

Here is an interesting snippet:

[...]

Users of methanol/gasoline mix found an unsuspected cause of trouble in the gasoline tank, which traditionally has been made of "terne plate," a favorite roofing material of Victorian architects. It is steel sheet coated with 8% tin-lead, making it ideal for resisting rust from water in gas tanks. Methanol reacts with lead, slowly but surely, forming a flaky sludge that plugs filters in the fuel system. The easiest solution is to inspect and clean the filters every few months while using methanol fuel. The problem is rust! Fuel tanks rust from the inside-out and primary pump ingests rust flakes rendering it incapable of supplying enough fuel to support secondary pump demand. This, in turn, causes low System Pressure and fuel starvation at higher rpm, if you'll get there. Once the protective Terne-Plate coating is compromised your tanks will deteriorate pretty fast. Sooner or later they will require epoxy coating or total replacement.

[...]

Edited September 26, 2012 by MrDangerUS

[rizla603104]

Really interesting. I like the idea of alternating - but I like the idea of flame throwing!!

[Guest surferphil]

They have been putting Ethanol in fuel for years, where can you get petrol without it in Britain? Not at the pumps!

This topic is discussed elsewhere on TLF and it's the polymers (plastics) that suffer the most, IIRC it's only the V8 Esprit that wasn't on the danger list for E10. My Esprit and M100s are, hence my letter to Shell.

Edited September 26, 2012 by surferphil

[ramjet]

All the pumps here have the octane rating on the individual labels as far as I know. I will check again though. I use V-power or BP Ultimate in my S4 and I noticed a marked difference between these fuels and the lower octane rated fuels.

The only ethanol fuel we have here is E10. Ethanol is not added to every fuel as far as I know.

Vastly different to the UK by the looks of it.

[Günter]

@John J: Methanol is actually not legal as fuel on public fuel-stations over here in Europe

..so don't mix up the terms 'Methanol' & 'Ethanol'

..and as a note, the characteristics of the Ethanol, in terms of an attempt to have a natural stable water content, change with the type of ethanol used (50-70% as you would drink in the pub, or 90% alcohol for laboratories, 94% type alcohol for the BBQ grill/ screen-washer and so on or 96% type alcohol) ..it's a question of basic water saturation in the ethanol and how much it wants to get more water out of the atmosphere. Think you will find a lot about this in your old school books too. TLF does have its own Chemistry Professor I think, wasn't Dermot O'Hare allready around in this field ?!

5% Alcohol (96%type Ethanol in this case) as an contend in normal petrol, this is all around here on all company-brands, as for the EU legislations on the continent. Even 10% Alcohol, as an add-on in the fuel types available on ordinary fuel stations is OK for all Lotus cars who have the *E10 note on refuelling* in the small owners manual in the 'fuels' chapter. (Phil is right, the 918 Esprit V8 was created as an 'world car' in terma of fuel markets and was at least 'certified by factory' for the use of E10 "for short ti8mes/if none else availble" ..as it is written there (something like this)

It is right that on fuel-pump elements and fuel rails ysome tests have shown reactions between water, steel, aluminium and alcohol over time, with an microscope of course ..but for example the fuel rails on the 918 are not made from aluminium, and there are no classic 'cork-type' sealings on the modern cars who need the more oily characteristic of petrol, to prevent them from drying out or so. So why not give it a chance ?

-the most real problem is to find a mixture the ECU can handle in points of ignition timing and A/F ratio ..that's what I see everytime on my still running self-experiment. For example with my actual setup on non stock injectors, as soon as the ECU has learned cold idle for the E85 and ignition timing on 'cruise' condition I can see that refuelling and nearly empty fueltank with petrol and try to restart with an hot engine is a big problem -the ECU does not learn fast, so it is not flexible enough and stalls the first thre time on turn of the key. So the capabilities on stock ECU's are in those points limited, thats for sure.

The point with "some types of plastics and rubber can not hold up" is also just the question of the type of alcohol used in the chemical process (Methanol/Ethanol) ..or some 'sharper' detergents/solvents from the Alcohol familly or even real detergents like acetone, the thing is that Ethanol is also sold in the grocery store in plastic bottles, as for example the screen-washer mixtures mentioned above ..so who cares, if something really leaks/brakes on the fuel pipes it is an chance to change it for a different type and try other products. We just need to inspect our toys a little more often now than in previous years.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Günter

[Guest surferphil]

I would not want to change the fuel system on my M100 Elan again, the tank is polymer as are the fuel lines (front engine). What would I change them with? I think E10 will wipe out the M100 according to the official lists.

But I guess that's what the EU want, we all buy new cars.

Edited September 26, 2012 by surferphil

[Günter]

Phil, you tank is probbably one of those ordinary black plastic tanks, formed from a molten soft plastic under heat and then blown into a shape that fits. This material is nothing else than the 10L 'reserve tank/reserve canister things' that you are allowed to store in your luggage compartement, so I would gues there are no risks to have E10 in the car tank. At least, so far only cars are listed in the avoid/allowed lists ..as noone has ever mentioned the accesory things you have in the garage/boot ...as for example those reserve-canisters. And I have not heared that there are also new products on the market, or otherwise the old products are just listed now with an additional note to make even more profit on argumenting the 'special characteristics' of this "new" product

The point with reactions on sealing rings, injectors and or pumps my be right ..but again -as long as the car companies favour to sell new cars, and just tend to reduce own efforts on analysing old components by saying 'no information availabe' or 'not legal' just by the fact that on this way they don't need to invest money on reasearch on old products - I simply think it is on your own to try it. As 'not listed' does not mean 'not possible' in general -you know what I mean ?

[Guest surferphil]

Different Polymers have individual and complex structural characteristics some will be broken down by Ethonol. I'm pretty sure the Elan fuel tank is injection moulded and the fuel lines are different extruded polymer again.

I doubt either were designed with Ethanol in mind so finding out the fuel tank has structural failure is a dangerous situation.

The ever progressing Elan track car project has aluminium fuel system and braided rubber lines, so not too much of a worry as the lines can easily be replaced and kept in check as they are inside the car. Maybe I can just use race fuel in that one?

[Günter]

you said that you are worried on the fuel-tank

..and that's what I say: with car manufacturers listings and all those stories around -the fuelreserve storage is still an ordinary 'injection molded and blown into shape' piece of plastic polymers, something like this ..and I don't see there any differences in those products within the last 20 years

the fuel lines of course can have couplings with quick-fit connectors, with o-rings in ..but so far on my car it still works (with all sorts of mixtures)

-the piece that failed so far was, as some of you may know , it was the 'shrader valve' in the RH fuel rail (actually nothing else than a tire valve ) ..and as there was no 'pre' & 'post' condition analysis on microscopic ways, to verify that it was the fuel and not my attempt to connect an pressure tester there ..who knows..

[Guest surferphil]

There is no 'ordinary injection moulded material', there are many polymers some are no longer made and some have evolved over the years; they have different carriers different solvents affect them and different properties to resist chemicals.

Just because they are injection moulded does not make them the same. Most plastics/polymers you cannot tell by touch or by looking at them as to what they are or how they react.

What makes you think my fuel tank is the same polymer as the fuel can in your picture without chemical analysis?

I think you have over simplified the chemicals industry by a long way.

[ChrisJ]

There's a garage near me that still sells Leaded 4 star. Here's the view from Streetview - in Woolmer Green, Hertfordshire. This is an old view, but the sign was still there on Saturday.

[slewthy]

Gosh. Cant imagine many people use that. Cant be in good condition/stale?

[ChrisJ]

I'll pass by at the weekend and ask

[ChrisJ]

Interesting, I visited the garage this evening, and there are 4 sets of pumps, each with 3 nozzles. One of the sets has unleaded, diesel & Leaded 4*. You can see it in my earlier photo, it's the red one.

This leads me to think that the leaded fuel is stored in one of their main tanks rather than the 4* pump being stuck in a corner somewhere and being a left over from before the phasing out, and that there must be a demand, otherwise why stock it.

The price is 204.9p / litre - compared to 146.9 for the 97 RON Unleaded.

I was told that it was delivered on a regular basis, although not weekly.

[Guest surferphil]

Sounds plausible; converting my Pug 205 to Unleaded ruined the cars performance and the valve clearances were constantly needing to be redone on My GPz, they said it would be fine on Unleaded but it wasn't.

[Mike6]

There is a small local garage in Helston, Cornwall where my Brother in Law lives and they are closing down because they cannot meet new requirements for changing the tanks/pumps to work with a higher percentage of biofuel. Also garage owner said the new higher levels of biofuel are causing major problems with water absorbtion and some cars are more sensitive than others. Government is however ignoring all these concerns as they push on to meet requirements for increasing percentage of biofuels in petrol

[Günter]

Phil, both are at least used to store & transport fuel (Petrol in this case, and Diesel)

-and could also have the *material index* noted on the product ..so you could see if the material would be equal in characteristics ?!

(material/recycling indexes like

01 = PET Polyethylenterephtahalat = Polyester

02 = PE-HD Polyethylen high density

03 = PVC Polyvinylchlorid

04 = PE-LD Polyethylen low density

05 = PP Polypropylen

06 = PS Polystyrol

07 = PBT Polybutylenterephtahalat and other similar plastics

08 = PC Polycarbonat

http://www.code-knacker.de/kunststoffe.htm

for example are related at least only to modern car parts and fuel-cans or similar products in the household, so your M100 fuel-tank can just have the fabrication year noted, not the actual *PP or whatever material type..)

There is also not a story known (or to be fair I have to say: 'I do not know any story') about an official announcement that customers have to change the fuel-cans now .. . What do you think, would'nt an fail of one of those, an fail related to Ethanol-fuel have caused an nationwide public discussion on this too -next to all the fears directly with the cars ??

Edited November 7, 2012 by Günter

[Guest surferphil]

Nice work posting the codes.

I don't think people generally even think about this sort of thing and the British government can't solve the really big problems here. When we lost 4* for Unleaded no one did anything about it even though we knew Benzine was more poisonous than lead we just followed the EU directive (as I posted before) my 2 vehicles suffered for it. We also followed the emissions legislation of Europe; cutting C02 in place of C0, Even though we knew C0 is a poison to humans and can kill whilst C02 is abundant in our atmosphere anyway.

If the press tell the population to panic they usually do; nothing happens it's just what we call the media circus.

The 5L tetra cans I have are PET but there is no way of finding out what the composition of the fuel tank is (or the lines). I don't think many people store fuel in these, just use them to collect fuel when the car runs out.

I'm not convinced the tetra cans are designed for high Ethanol content either? It could take years for anything to break down (but that is a disaster waiting to happen in a car). As yet I have been assured (what ever that's worth) that there is only 5% Ethanol in the Shell petrol I use. I hope it stays at 5% but it looks like some fuels may already have E-10%.

Having removed my Esprit fuel tanks I see they are not lined, might the ethanol absorb water and rust these tanks from the inside?

I'm having a stainless steel tank made at the moment so I guess in a few years that can be compared to the mild steel tank still in the car.

I'm also wondering what the longevity of E10 is considering how easily water is absorbed?

Edited November 7, 2012 by surferphil

[Guest surferphil]

Sorry the tetra cans are HDPE not PET as I wrote above.