Scottish Independence

[basalte]

Some sentiments of patriotism/national independence from around the world :

 

"Soldiers of Vietnam marching onward, united in determination to save the nation

Our flag red with the blood of victory bears the spirit of the country,

Leading our people and our land out of misery

....Rising in unison, smashing the chains and shackles to smithereens " Vietnamese national anthem

 

"On the shore dimly seen through the mists of the deep, where the foe`s (ie Britain) haughty host in dread silence reposes"

-The Star Spangled Banner

 

"Better to die on your feet than  live on your knees !" Emiliano Zapata, Mexico .

 

"Don`t fear a glorious death. To die for the Homeland is to Live" Cuban National Anthem

 

"Arise all those who refuse to be slaves. Let our flesh and blood forge a new Great Wall. ...Brave the enemy`s fire. March On March On March On !" Chinese National Anthem.

 

"You can gain / lose £500/£1400/whatever in household income by being independent / not being independent " Scotland today.

 

Am I missing something or is there an element of ummm....passion,  absent from  the debate ? Not to labour the point but I thought independence was something to be passionately embraced whatever the cost !

 

Or don`t bother.

[Bibs]

The Daily Mash chime in...

 

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/still-another-100-days-until-end-of-dreary-scottish-argument-2014060987358

[Chillidoggy]

What concerns me is whether independence will have an detrimental effect on Scottish cuisine reaching the rest of the U.K.

[molemot]

Today's oxymoron is....

 

"Scottish Cuisine"!!!!

 

(not including the liquid variety from Islay!)

[hedgerley]

In donating £1m to the pro-Union campaign, JK Rowling has commented at length why she believes separation would be a seriously bad thing. In fact, its probably the best written statement I've seen that tackles the big issues and draws a sensible conclusion (IMHO anyway.....).

 

http://www.jkrowling.com/en_GB/#/news-events

 

The argument is getting nasty and indeed Rowling herself has already suffered online abuse at the hand of the 'cybernats'. with calls for her to 'f**k off back South'. She has highlighted what many in the business and arts world are saying privately, that they are afraid to speak publicly in support of the No campaign because of this vilification. My worry is that, whatever the decision on 18/09 these wounds will remain open for a long time. That would be a real shame.

[Chillidoggy]

Today's oxymoron is....

 

"Scottish Cuisine"!!!!

 

(not including the liquid variety from Islay!)

Well, I use the term 'cuisine' loosely. By that I mean the wonderful delicacy of deep-fried Mars bars, and deep-fried burgers.

[Bibs]

The papers are saying Darling tore Salmond a new one on TV last night (what's with these televised debates?) but we didn't see it as south of the border they had a gardening program or something on instead

[Chillidoggy]

Shows how much interest there is down here.

 

I just wish they'd make up their minds very soon, I'm fed up with hearing all the bleating.

 

Anyway, I can't see why it's taken so long to organise a referendum when all they have to do is set up a some polling stations in the larger settlements, and carrier pigeons for the crofters.

[iainskea]

I watched the debate after seeing a news headline 'pro-Scottish independence representative flunks in debate'. Have to say I didn't see any flunking, just the usual debate grandstanding. Both stuck to their points and both sidestepped each others questions. So I question the headline which was from the "BBC", funnily enough.

[Stirling_Villeneuve]

Shows how much interest there is down here.

 

 

I'm interested in the outcome but the debate wasn't screened down here.... shame, I'm sure it would've been interesting to watch. 

[910Esprit]

You can watch it now on BBC Parliament channel and it was streamed by STV yesterday.   I don't think it would have changed anyone's minds. Certainly no killer blows from either side

[Laura]

BBC couldn't get the rights to screen this one but the next one will be shown to the whole UK.

From the report I read on the beeb neither one of them said anything useful that hasn't already been said

[Dunc]

I watched it in England using Freesat HD.

 

It was guff.

 

Alex Salmond not really having answers to the key questions and resorting to sound bytes and petty personal point scoring regarding Labours handling of the financial crisis and how Alastair Darling has the same views as David Cameron on Scottish independence in an attempt to incriminate by association....

 

Alastair Darling proved that he has all the charm, zip and personality of the Reverend IM Jolly, and despite having an entire arsenal of questions he could use to pick holes in the SNP's claims on the economy and intended fiscal policy and currency - failed to really put the slimy one on the rack.

 

half time score 1-1 in a dismal match, with a special mention to the referee - Bernard Ponsonby (real name) - who embodies the fact that commercial television in Scotland can't afford anyone good...

[Kimbers]

Whilst I agree that we see Salmond's noises as petty personal point scoring, he is not stupid and is appealing to his audience.

 

Lets face it, if he tried selling it on hard facts and what was best for Scotland he would be swapping sides to the No vote. But he is relying on anti English feeling as much as he is relying on Scottish Patriotism and pride. That's why he got the 16-18 year olds involved because they don't (generalisation I know, but a majority view) like the English and don't even think of the economic effects.

 

That's why Darlings talk of "Economy, being better off etc" won't effect the vote. He's only appealing to those who are going to vote yes anyway. He needs to appeal to the fence sitters and I don't know how he does that, not being Scottish. Though many fance sitters are siding with "Yes" vote since the Commonwealth Games.

 

My wife is Half Scottish (her dad) but she or even he doesn't get a say because they live in England. It's all been set up very smartly by Salmond.

[Loose Cannon]

Anyone remember McGlashan the Scottish Independance candidate from "Absolutely"?

 

 

English POOFS!

[Dunc]

Lets face it, if he tried selling it on hard facts and what was best for Scotland he would be swapping sides to the No vote. But he is relying on anti English feeling as much as he is relying on Scottish Patriotism and pride.

 

I think you are being a bit unfair on the Scottish Nationalist agenda.

 

Scottish Nationalism is not all about England, nor is it about anti-English feeling. It is about a positive Scottish nation and the ability to select a government that will actually care about that nation when deciding how to allocate it's fiscal expenditure.

 

I am not a Scottish nationalist - (I'm a Scottish Tory and GB unionist), but the hard facts of this discussion is that Scotland was not well treated by the UK government through the 80's and first half of the 90's. Things have improved under a devolved Scottish assembly, but the Scottish electorate views that as part of the nationalist agenda - so the SNP are getting credit for it rather than the UK government.

 

There is a lot of talk in England about expenditure per head of population and how Scotland receives a greater expenditure than citizens in England, but as a rural area, that's perhaps not all that surprising, and you would see the same in English rural areas if you factored in population. The main failing of the net receiver argument is not factoring in revenues gained by UK coffers from the North Sea, which uncomfortably for people forwarding the Unionist viewpoint, sit in Scottish waters and would belong to Scotland (other than some of the gas fields). If you are counting the beans regionally on the way out of the war chest, it is only fair that you count them regionally on the way in.

 

Scotland has had immense industrial change, which should have resulted in fiscal stimulus and investment to support local areas of high unemployment. Defence cuts also hit Scotland harder, as it has historically contributed more soldiers pro-rata to the British Forces than the other countries. All of these changes in the economy should have resulted in a government response, but instead there was nothing.

 

In a nutshell Scotland is similar to Coventry or Middlesborough in England, where industrial change has left many out of work, but with the key difference that Scotland has nation status, was once independent, is rich in national resources, and has its own financial services hub and potentially has the ability to thrive.

 

If Coventry or Middlesborough had the same, they would probably not think they were "better together" as part of the UK, under a government that really didn't give a rat's ass about them.

As a Tory, I am ashamed of how my party treated Scotland under Margaret Thatcher and John Major. The Conservative Party is dead in Scotland, and subsequently began to direct government policy to areas which may yield votes for them.

 

If I am viewing things this way as a Tory unionist - imagine how the labour voters in Scotland are viewing it - an opportunity to select a socialist government answerable to them.

 

I think it will be tight in September, and a lot will depend on mobilisation of voters to the booths - and that makes me worried as a unionist.

[Kimbers]

I'm from Coventry

 

And I don't think I was being unfair on the Nationalist agenda, I understand that to many this is not about dislike of the English. I was specifically pointing out that Salmond plays on the "Anti-English" feelings some people have and then pointed out that this is prevalent more especially in the young, which is why he wanted them to vote IMHO.

 

I was paying him a compliment in that area.

 

Don't forget my In Laws are Scottish so I'm not your normal Englishman thinking the worst.

[pete]

if they vote to leave wonder what will happen to Cumbernauld  . Surely will not stay as headquarters of Her Majesties Custom and Excise(HMRC) 

[hedgerley]

Wasn't just the BBC I'm afraid. Just about every media outlet, social and print, all the newspapers, pollsters and commentators reckon he blew it. Even his allies in the Yes camp are now saying his stance on currency is untenable. Snap polls after the debate showed it had virtually no impact on the current position, which has held around 57/43 in favour if the Union.

As for why it's taken so long, blame the SNP. They wanted it in the Year of the Homecoming, post Commonwealth Games and on the anniversary of the defeat of the English at Bannockburn. Also to get the legislation through to allow 16 and 17 year old's the vote. And probably for the Edinburgh trams to start! Talk about trying to stack the deck.

 

And all this guff about getting the Government we voted for guff is all b******s as well. In 2010 the SNP took 20% of the 'popular' vote. That's 80% who DIDN'T vote for the SNP. FFS, the Tories won 17% of the popular vote, only just behind the SNP. That's around 490,000 to 417,000 voters. I can't agree that the Tories are dead and buried in Scotland with this  level of vote share. Its unfortunate that the first past the post system resulted in only one MP. So yes, the Tory voter base in Scotland is grossly under-represented, not non-existent!

 

As for the Scottish Parliament election in 2011, as Darling said, he didn't vote for Salmond but we are stuck with him. Its called democracy. BTW, this was another fact that Salmond got wrong in the debate - he said the majority of voters voted for the SNP. We quite clearly didn't.

[alanbell]

during the great debate the clown asked darling if he thought that an independent Scotland was more likely to be invaded by aliens. he was a bit late it has already happened wee eck aka alec salmond is already here.

[Mikie711]

 

 

And all this guff about getting the Government we voted for guff is all b******s as well. In 2010 the SNP took 20% of the 'popular' vote. That's 80% who DIDN'T vote for the SNP. FFS, the Tories won 17% of the popular vote, only just behind the SNP. That's around 490,000 to 417,000 voters. I can't agree that the Tories are dead and buried in Scotland with this  level of vote share. Its unfortunate that the first past the post system resulted in only one MP. So yes, the Tory voter base in Scotland is grossly under-represented, not non-existent!

 

As for the Scottish Parliament election in 2011, as Darling said, he didn't vote for Salmond but we are stuck with him. Its called democracy. BTW, this was another fact that Salmond got wrong in the debate - he said the majority of voters voted for the SNP. We quite clearly didn't.

The voting in a UK general election will always be different to the Scottish elections. The figures you quoted are for the UK elections.

The returns in the Scottish elections in 2011 were considerably different. Torry's had 13.9% which gained them 2 seats, both interestingly in the boarders, Labour  31.7% and SNP 45.39% and he was right, the majority of voter did vote for him, that is how he won.

[hedgerley]

Sorry Mike, but 45.39% a majority does not make. A majority share of the popular vote would have to be at least 50.1%. The SNP share of the vote indicates 54.61% voted Labour, Tory or for the minority parties, not for the SNP. If you are saying that more people voted SNP than EITHER Tory or Labour, then you (and he) would be correct. But share of the total popular vote, afraid not.

 

But as I said, that's democracy and I am OK with it. As long as people quote the actual facts/stats.........

[Kimbers]

I can't believe what I just heard on the radio.

 

Salmond was saying on 5 live that should it gain independence Scotland "WILL NOT take a % of UK Debt as that is held in Westminster and centralised debt, not ours".

 

He then stated "We offer to pay a percentage of the debt repayment (not take the debt) but only if we get a % of the UK Assets."

 

WTF is that? So you will pay a % of debt repayment but not take the debt? In that case you get a % of the Asset Income but not the Assets you numpty!

 

Are Scottish people really understanding and listening to what he is saying day in and day out? It doesn't seem so with the polls getting closer!

 

"The Uk Govt will have to give us the pound, it's in their interest!" (not really you will devalue it so you won't get it).

 

"The EU will automatically include us because we are part of the EU at present!" (Yes but when you become independent you will have to reapply and you don't get even close to the criteria)....his reply "We won't they'll accept us" (Yes but the EU has stated categorically you WILL have to reapply!) "No we won't".

 

When will people see past the spin and understand he's liberal with the truth!

[Chillidoggy]

When they vote yes, and it all goes tits-up?

[hedgerley]

He really does live in la-la land. Just about the whole of the UK and the international banking and financial sector have said this is a really, really bad idea. Many have already made plans and secured offices south of the Border should Scotland vote Yes. The EU, NATO, IMF etc.have said, umpteen times and various forums, that Scotland will take years to re-integrate itself with the international community once it leaves the UK. The hiatus in the interim will be a disaster for the economy and his grand plans for a 'fairer society' will come to nought, replaced with swinging spending cuts and higher taxes as he tries to balance the books.

 

His position on a Currency Union is farcical - how can a foreign country (rUK) be expected to act as lender of last resort? The arrogance of the man to say that the rUK tax-payer doesn't have a say in the matter is contemptible, especially if he walks away from his share of the national debt (which means punitive interest rates when he has to go to the international bond market for money)

 

But all these people are wrong, Alex is right and they are all bluffing. So that's OK.

 

Anyhow, we have just sold our house and I have actually moved my banking, business and personal, out of RBS. We were planning to do downsize this year anyway but in the event of a Yes vote - which I still believe won't happen, despite the polls - the capital flight (mine) has already started! 

 

And don't get me started on the cyber-nats. The online abuse and vitriol has ramped up in recent weeks. If it appeared on the street (and it has started to, witness the abuse Jim Murphy has been getting) they would be arrested for a breach of the peace, but they hide behind false Facebook identities so can't be identified.

 

This is a great country and I have no desire to leave, but I must admit to considering my options - even after a No vote this country will be divided. Let's not forget there are families in South Yorkshire who are still not speaking to relatives because they broke the miners strike. I can see something similar happening here. And all to satisfy Salmond's hubris.

 

Phew, now pass me the Tylenol