Scottish Independence

[Chillidoggy]

Is that Elton John on the right?

[C8RKH]

(c) ScottishElises

[Chillidoggy]

Right on cue...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/24/buckfast-makers-hit-copycat-easter-eggs-warn-children-may-drink/

 

[C8RKH]

It's only drunk in Scotland. Actually msde in England!

[Barrykearley]

Just don't let the secret out

[Chillidoggy]

We'll be slapping a nice big export tax on it after Independence Day.

[pete]

Are people on from Scotland  on here leading us astray or is sturgeon in a dream world. Today on her American tour as queen of scotland she told her audience that voters would prefer the option of independence to the idea of staying part of UK after it left eu and that she will win an independence vote.

[Clive59]

Have lived there for the past 18 months, and talked to quite a few about it. Most think it is not a practical idea, even though they quite like the idea in their heart, and I can understand that. But they don't support independence from a realistic perspective. From the small sample size I have quizzed, she has got no hope. And they export 4 times as much to UK as they do EU, go figure...

[C8RKH]

Lived here for 22 years. Half my family Scottish (mother's side) and half English.  My kids are a mix too (daughter born in England, was 1 yr old when we moved here, two sons born in Dundee).

The feeling or view breaks down very firmly in my experience into two camps - both strong in their views but interestingly there are divides even within families.  The nationalists are the noisiest, and even in my family there are parents (in their 70's) who don't say much about the Union as their kids (in their late 30's early 40's) are rampant Nats and they actually "bully" their parents into submission so they keep stum for a quieter life.

Generally, the younger generation thinks the world is theirs and they should go alone and embrace Independence and because they are Scottish it will all be OK.  There is though also a core band of hardy warriors who generally are 55+ who do "hate" the English and blame them for everything. Had the dinner the other week with a load of neighbours, and one of them even blurted out with stoic confidence that the rising cost od energy was all Thatcher's fault!  I mean, FFS, 30 years plus after she was in power it's still all her fault for some!  This view is fuelled by the SNP and Sturgeon's constant diatribe and vitriolic about the "English Tories".  Just about every speech from her mentioned the English Tories and how it is all their fault.

I think the majority, albeit a small majority, are sick to death of the whole independence thing right now.  There is a growing acceptance that Scotland is going backwards not forwards through lack of Government. Did you know that the SNP and the Scottish Government have not passed a bill in Holyrood in over 12 months?  Nothing. Nadder!  Read into that what you will.

I think inevitably we will be forced into Indyref2. The ironic thing is is that it is a minority Scottish Government that will take us there, and one that has a track record of ignoring the votes in Holyrood and just going and doing what it likes. It does not bode well for Scotland as a independent democracy to be honest.

I'd like to think that we will vote again to stay part of the Union. I do however think the question on the ballot paper, to ensure balance, should not be the same as last time and should be "Do you want to see Scotland STAY as part of the United Kingdom? - Yes or No".  This will allow the Unionist's this timje to campaign on the positive YES and the Independenista's to campaign positively around the negative.  I think this will force a more open debate and really hard questions about just what an independent Scotland will look like internally and externally.

Overall. I just think a lot of people in Scotland are tired of standing still and watching this farce just roll on.  And sad to see the country being ripped apart and the sheer hostility and anger being generated.

And instead of blowing tax payers money on vanity trips to California, if Sturgeon was truly determined to stop global warming, she'd shut the fluke up and stop all that useless hot air gushing from her mouth every time she speaks.

 

[Chillidoggy]

I read a couple of days ago that even her own kind are saying she's effectively dumped her day job, and is solely fixated on the independence thing.

[Inkyfingers]

She's only ever cared about Independence. Getting elected was just a means to an end.

I have no issue with Scotland becoming Independent, It just makes me angry to see them being led there under false pretences, by a bunch of charlatans.

[pete]

[C8RKH]

Yes, these idiots are peddling a nice message "Scotland is a colony of the British or English state".  I live in Scotland and at some point I am waiting (in trepidation) for the "English Backlash" at numpties like these.

It won't be pleasant. It'll hurt like hell up here.

[SFO]

It’s very handy for Scotland to have England to blame for everything that goes wrong or does not go well in Scotland 

 

[C8RKH]

Agreed.

It's politics of hate dressed up as Nationalism.

I have no problem with anyone being "proud" of their country. But I do hate Nationalism and in my mind the SNP and the EDL etc are all cut from the same cloth irrespective of how they try to dress themselves up (or not as in the EDL's case).

I think I'm equipped to have a balanced view on this (what, balanced did I say). Why is that?

Well my mother is Scottish and so that side of the family.

I've lived in Scotland for the past 25 years. I have 2 kids born in Scotland so they are Scottish (the other was 1 when she moved here with us)

So over the past 15 - 20 years we've seen a slow and steady rise of the SNP and the Independence movement again, largely down to Alex who was, if we are honest, a very intelligent politician of not, in my opinion a particularly nice person.

We've had devolution for 15 years or so. I huge amount of powers transferred to Holyrood (you'd be surprised at how many have not been fully used!) 

In that time, we have seen the slow decline in standing and performance in Scotland, under devolution, of: the NHS, Education, Law and Order and  the Fir Service. Economic performance is below par, National Debt is one of the highest in Europe if not the highest as % of GDP and the gap in attainment between rich and poor has widened to again the worst in the UK.

So given this performance. Overseen largely by almost 12 years of continuous SNP Government. How any intelligent person can think that Independence is the best answer and will bring a land of honey and money to Scotland is deluded. And that's the issue. Because for many in the Independence movement all they see is Scotland as a "free" (please don't make me laugh any more my sides are hurting) nation again, like they were 500 years ago. This romantic notion, fuelled by the language they use (referring to Scotland as a Colony!) will indeed see Scotland revert back to an autonomous national state, like it was 500 years ago. My big fear is that the living standards and situation could well also revert back to what it was 500 years ago too! Not literally of course. But we will be racked with debt. Starved of investment. And many of our citizens will (as they do now) be in poverty.

Mel Gibson has a lot to answer for!

[mdw]

I no longer care, I am sick and tired of them rattling on about it every 5 minutes. 

[pete]

"the sooner we can have independence the better it will be for all"

HEAR HEAR we are fed up with it

[C8RKH]

I'm really fed up of it however it was nice to see Andrew Marr getting "stuck into" Sturgeon for once on his show yesterday. She really did not like the scrutiny. Then on the Scottish Politics show afterwards we had the numpty Michael Russell comparing Johnson's refusal to submit to a Indy Ref to Trumps refusal to accept Biden saying that unlike Trump and Johnson the SNP is fully supporting of democracy. Yet again I find myself shouting at the TV as the interviewer does not ask the obvious question "well, that may be the case Mr. Russell but you certainly have never accepted the democratic outcome from the previous referendum have you?"  It would have absolutely showed him up.

 

[Kimbers]

Or the fact that the SNP had agreed it was a once in a lifetime vote!

[red vtec]

Let them go, they can pay for their own defence, healthcare etc. They have no business as the oil is drying up and they have sod all else apart from tourism (that's working well at the current time) There is only so much Shortcake and whiskey you can flog.

[Bibs]

And Salmon.

 

[C8RKH]

Actually @red vtecthere is a lot of renewable energy that is used across the UK and would certainly increase energy costs in rUK if it was taken away.  Farming/food production is strong and actually manufacturing on a smaller scale is strong.  So we should not belittle that.

However, as someone who lives here I am well aware that our spending on services and the public sector is supported by the rest of the Uk and I worry that those so fervently seeking Independence have given little thought to "how" the finances and lifestyle of people in Scotland will be impacted. My suggestion is that impact would not be for the better, especially for those of us who work. And what would it do for Scotland's exports to it's biggest market, which is in fact, the rest of the UK?  Scotland turns it back on the rUK so the rest of the UK may turn around and say stuff your shortbread and tartan.

IF Independence happens. My first act will be to "officially" move back home with my mother (a Scot who lives in England!).  Straight away I will reduce my tax liability by 5% and avoid any future increases to pay for all the stuff that the SNP will want to give away in their new "country" to keep their supporters happy.  I'll go back to Scotland at the weekend to see the wife until we manage to sell the house!  I kid you not...  That way I can ensure my elderly mother is OK and preserve my wealth. Yup. A selfish bastard or what.  

I am pretty sure I will not be the only actively working and tax paying resident in Scotland who will leave quickly for financial reasons and what will that do to the balance of payments?

An independent Scotland sounds superb. The romantic dream. Great. Crack on if that is what is wanted.  But how long before the crying kicks in, and the accusations that the rest of the UK has someone "shafted" Scotland as a result of Scotland getting what it wanted?  I mean, it's bad enough now that the SNP is not held to account (for reducing standards in education, health, police, and public services across the piece) for their poor performance as the masses seem to swallow their Bullshit that it is all that nasty Westminster's fault. Christ can you imagine the pish and drivel if it all starts unravelling after Independence and there will be no EU or Westminster bailout this time!  I just don't think many of the fanatics up here have actually thought it through. They just want Independence at any cost and think someone else will pick up the bill.

 

[Chillidoggy]

Can someone enlighten me why Scotland would want independence? Would it purely be for political reasons, or is it because they believe they will be better off financially?

[C8RKH]

@Chillidoggyit is because they "believe".  What they "believe" in has never really been clarified other than "we want independence". It's very much like with Brexit - "we want to take control back" but "what control" was never really properly defined.

I genuinely get confused though as there is a strong desire for Independence and yet every time they (Independence supporters) think they are not getting their fair share of "grants/subsidies" they cry like babies straight out of the womb. I wonder if they actually realise that Independence means they can spend what they make and "borrow" what they don't make - but that "borrowing needs to be paid back at some time".  The Financial Crisis and COVID should surely have shown that as a United Kingdom we can get through major Global downturns and issues. Not sure how Scotland would have handled either on it's own especially when the biggest bank bailouts where to the Royal Bank, and Bank of, Scotland. How on earth would Scotland have funded that "on its own"?  If someone has an answer to that I would genuinely love to hear it.

[Bibs]

I'm sure they'd miss the £32bn annual Barnett money too.