VW faking emissions tests in USA?

[C8RKH]

I tend to agree. Not to condone what VW have done, but it all depends on the way the emission regulation are phrased exactly.

If the law states a car must not exceed emissions in a specific test and/or will be taxed based on the outcome of a particular test, it is only logical that manufacturers will seek to optimize their cars for that particular test. Which can mean different gearing for higher mpg in the combined test, or an engine management that will minimize emissions during a test. Everybody accepts that if the car is driven spiritedly, the engine will emit more. Not just because it uses more fuel; but also because the management will be different at higher loads and rpm, and even some mechanical parameters will change. This can include a very wide range of factors: a enriched mixture, variable valves, exhaust configurations, increased redline, increased boost pressure and so on. I don't want to sound like the devil's advocate (though apparently the pay is real good), but is an Exige for example tested in Tour or Race and are the emissions the same? Many sporty cars have some sort of performance setting these days. We all accept those things, because they offer better performance which is what most want (in one way or the other). VW took this to a different level, but if the law only states compliance with the test for a vehicle 'in the configuration as used on the road', it would be hard to make any charges stick. Yes it could be called deception, but to be fair, there is little or no damage for the individual customer (unless governments start claiming lost taxes or such). Most owners will not be bothered by the NOx emissions of their car. They will look at mpg, but that would have benefited from the different software settings. One could argue mankind as a whole is a victim of the increased emissions, but again that would put the responsibility with the governments that came up with the legislation that requires cars to conform in a test environment, without necesseraly complying in real world usage.

Filip

Filip - I don't follow you here. They have been caught red handed implementing software that deliberately produces a false result for the tests for the purposes of gaining a business advantage. The stuff you say re real world driving etc. is just rollocks and you are making excuses for poor and bad judgement and behaviour, in my opinion. Let us not cloud the issue like you are doing here and VW has been doing to the planet   The issue is have they deliberately set out to deceive emmissions tests and as a result have governments lost out on tax revenue and have consumers been hood winked into buying a VW instead of a rivals. They answer to both is Yes, one of the reasons why the CEO has resigned.

Am I surprised that our European cousins, in some instances are trying to play this down and be sympathetic? I am surprised Merkel is being protectionist. Of course not. It just shows how bloody hypocritical the majority of EU leaders are, especially if they are French / German / Dutch, amongst others, who have been actively and shamelessly protecting their large corporations for years. Fine them to the max, cripple them, and then start again. Merkel may well be able to exert pressure on the EU govts, but it will not wash with the EPA and Federal Gvt. in Washington.

[sailorbob]

Has the government lost out on tax revenues? Possibly not as a decrease in economy means increased revenue collected at the pump instead of via vehicle excise duty.

Have consumers been hoodwinked into buying VW instead of another manufacturer?  Possibly not as it is not just VW diesels that have not been performing to what the official tests indicate.

[Chillidoggy]

There'll be a lot less tax revenue when the VW sales plummet, if they haven't already done so.

[Kimbers]

Has the government lost out on tax revenues? Possibly not as a decrease in economy means increased revenue collected at the pump instead of via vehicle excise duty.

Have consumers been hoodwinked into buying VW instead of another manufacturer?  Possibly not as it is not just VW diesels that have not been performing to what the official tests indicate.

Derek, I had already posted this on page 2 but here you go for clarity:

Going back to the UK. Where it heavily effects us is in company car terms. There are millions of Company Car users in the UK and the company car tax you pay is directly related to the Co2 of a car. So, for example, my Peugeot 308 GT 2.0 Hdi has Co2 of 103g/km therefore my company car tax is 18% of the list price as an adjustment to my tax code. 18% x £25,000 = £4500 adjustment. Actual cost 40% (tax bracket) of £4500 = £1800 per annum.

Take this back to VW. VW is one of, if not the, biggest supplier of company cars in the UK. Many of my Colleagues drive Golf and other products. Lets look at why it effects us so much.

Gold GTD (equiv of my 308GT) List Price basic £25285, Co2 109 g.km stated = 19% company car tax of £4804 x 40% = £1921.66. they are saying that some models are substantially more polluting than they state.Lets be kind and say another 30g/km (though they are saying it could be as much as double). 139g/km takes you to 25% company car tax or £6321.25 x 40% = £2528. Over £600 more per annum in company car tax, PLUS the difference of £100 a year on RFL.

Times that by the several million VW Company cars on the road and you start to see why it can be just as big a scandal in the UK as it is in the US.

[Stubox]

The VW issue is about Nox not Co2.

 

The reason to retest the cars in the Eu will be to see if the 'device' fitted a) interfers with the current Eu test and b) drops the cars outside an Eu regulation band ,ie from 6 to 5a/b or lower. 

[LF1]

Not sure if it has been noted already today, but it looks like all the Audi's now are included and a third brand within the group has had employes put on leave as a result:

http://news.sky.com/story/1560147/2-1m-audi-cars-have-vw-emission-cheat-device

I guess everyone expected/assumed as much?

[Bibs]

Porsche next?

[LF1]

I think it was a boffin from Porsche that was the other brand to get a suspension.

Let's be honest though, same engines across the entire group, not sure how any brand is not going to be in the poo.

[sailorbob]

Passing the regulated laboratory tests and the real world NOx emissions are completely different. Even the International Council on Clean Transportation acknowledges this and it's their report which actually kicked this little lot off. I haven't seen any test results to show what the emissions would be without the "defeat device" when the car is tested in accordance with the laboratory test. Those would be interesting to see. Especially when conducted on random cars taken from the production line (i.e. in accordance with the testing requirements) rather than used vehicles as per the ICCT tests.

As the US NOx limit for passenger vehicles is about 39% of the Euro6 limit I would expect there to be significantly more diesels capable of meeting European standards than the USA standards.

[Kimbers]

The VW issue is about Nox not Co2.

 

The reason to retest the cars in the Eu will be to see if the 'device' fitted a) interfers with the current Eu test and b) drops the cars outside an Eu regulation band ,ie from 6 to 5a/b or lower. 

It is Stu but there will be a Co2 effect as well, trust me and Europe it's all about Co2.

I have worked in the industry for 20 years and even been on a working group for HMRC specialising in Co2 and car pollutants in terms of Company cars so I know there is a trade off between Co2 and Nox and it's suspected that anything that can mask or fabricate NoX readings can happily mess with Co2 readings as well. Please don't take my word on it here's part of an article I was reading recently:

"Williams said being able to mask their NOx emissions would also enable carmakers to pass carbon emissions tests more easily as there was a trade-off between NOx and CO2 in diesel engines.

Catherine Bearder MEP, a lead negotiator on the EU’s new air quality laws, said: “Manufacturers in the US have been caught out, but we know that pollution limits are also being breached in Europe ... Unless we take action, thousands of lives will continue to be tragically cut short by air pollution.”

In a sign that the emissions scandal will not remain restricted to the US, a Venice court will next month hear a case against VW for misleading test advertising.

The Italian consumer rights group Altroconsumo is due to press its case for a class action suit against VW and Fiat on 2 October, after laboratory tests showed that fuel consumption and CO2 emissions from the VW Golf 1.6 and Fiat Panda 1.2 were up to 50% higher than claimed.

Monique Goyens, the director of the European consumer rights umbrella group BEUC called for an investigation by the European commission into the use of software programmes to “game” European emissions tests. "The VW scandal has compounded our concern that underhand tactics are also being used in fuel consumption and CO2 testing programmes in Europe,”

[Andyww]

Have VW defrauded governments and customers - probably not. There are tests that their vehicles have to pass which do not reflect real world driving and they found a way of passing those tests. They probably haven't broken any laws in doing this in most countries. So, people say, lets introduce real world tests and then we'll find that most of the vehicles cannot pass them. Also real world tests aren't going to be very good unless you test a vehicle with several thousands of mile of use to expose the effects of wear on the engine and emissions equipment.

Of course they have defrauded governments and customers. What they did was to write a software algorithm which deduces from external conditions such as steering movement, air pressure etc (which dont affect emissions) that the car is presently undergoing a test and sets a software flag, and switches to a completely different test-mode ECU map which is never used on the road. This is total and utter fraud.

What is not yet certain is if the software detects an EU test is being run, as it was specifically tailored to detect USA testing. They have confirmed the software was present in EU cars but it may not have been triggered in the EU. The tests are not as stringent here so the cars may have passed using the standard map. If they were using the software flag in the EU as well, this would be disastrous for VW.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Andyww

[Barrykearley]

VW, Audi and Porsche look like they are all fingered so far. Skoda and seat won't be far behind I'm sure.

i hope they really have caused massive damage to their branding. What ever anyone's arguments about this - they have cheated, been dishonest, sneaky, underhand and are lacking completely in moral fibre.

come on lotus - dig the boot into the 911 !!!

[C8RKH]

Skoda have admitted 1m cars I believe

[TBD]

Amazing how much press and attention this is getting (even here), particularly when you compare it to, for exxample, the GM ignition locks, or the Takata airbags - both of which caused tangible deaths.

[Andyww]

But this is different. The cases you mention were not intentional, they were design faults. This was deliberate deception.

There has been a case of this before though, I believe a Chrysler model in the US had a switch on the bonnet which was wired to an ECU pin. This was thought to invoke a cleaner map when the bonnet was open, during testing. But it didnt seem to have been followed up or proven.

[Kimbers]

Thomas, I totally understand where you are coming from. It does seem like lots of people are ganging up on the German Manufacturers. But sadly that's because they have done what they have done. Sure, they have admitted it but, it was intentional fraud. Plain and simple.

Don't get me wrong, my company is a major purchaser of VW product and I am alarmed at what is happening and worried for the repurcussions and effect it will have on Jobs and future sales within the VAG group and how it will effect all other manufacturers moving forward. The fallout from this could be really nasty and if it was virtually anyone other than the VAG group I would worry for their future. For some time there has been a rumour that VW was looking at it's brands and amalgamating them. This current situation does make me worry for SEAT in particular, the smallest of their brands. It wouldn't cost a lot to integrate them into other area's and close it down.

Watch out on the 6th October. The new UK sales figures will be out and it will tell us the effect this has had on customer confidence and sales. It will take a few months for it to filter down to used values, but I suspect any car proven to have much higher NoX levels and Co2 issues will plumet in value used.  

Edited September 29, 2015 by Kimbers

[C8RKH]

Amazing how much press and attention this is getting (even here), particularly when you compare it to, for exxample, the GM ignition locks, or the Takata airbags - both of which caused tangible deaths.

Thomas, yes, a huge amount of attention but come on, VW across the whole Group set out to defraud customers and Governments on a global level.  Also, part of the backlash is that VAG has played the "we're goodies" card. They've been arrogant and set themselves up for this very big fall. I have no sympathy for them and if they were British I would feel exactly the same.

The reports that Merkel has been on the phone to heads of EU govts. asking them to go easy on VAG has not helped either. Whether you like it or not, German Car Manufacturers have become both arrogant and complacent over the last 15 years whilst their products have been just OK - just look at the reliability tables, BMW, Audi et al, not exactly shining examples of reliability with high fix costs - but heh, I own a Lotus so who am I to throw stones

No-one is ganging up on Germany here, VAG has brought this on themselves through their dishonest actions. As Kimbers says, they've owned up, but only after they really did not have a choice as the evidence was compelling - "sorry Guv, I did not rob that house" - "Where did those jewels in your bag come from sir" - "oh, well, actually, sorry, yes I did rob it".....

As for GM, Ford, Toyota etc. Yes, they have done bad things and people have died. But they were held to account for their actions, just like VAG needs to be. And let's be honest, one of the few things I like about the US is that their Federal Agencies do not differentiate between home and foreign companies when they go for the jugular. We in Europe, can hardly say the same, and sorry to say, but in my book Germany, France, Italy and Spain lead the way in protectionism - you only need to look at Rail / Transportation, utilities, Financial Services and Manufacturing to see the truth in that.

Just my views. Not saying I am right. I  might be a bleedin' idiot - my wife would concur with that by the way  She thought she was marrying an Audi, now realises she got a Skoda...

[Kimbers]

So a VW board member has come out and said anyone involved should have criminal proceedings against them. Who is this man? I hear you shout!! Well his name is......wait for it......

Olaf Lies.........you really couldn't make it up! I keep giggling everytime I read it. If he does why should we believe him?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34397426

[LF1]

I did not realise that the original 11m cars affected were across the 4 brands, I thought that was just VW and there would be a lot more to come. I guess the damage is likely to do more to VW cars because that is the "Make" in all the headlines, most people don't even realise Audi, Seat and Skoda are all the same.

[Kimbers]

Yes mate same platforms same engines, different body and badge. Some of the SEATS, like the Exeo are based on the previous model Audi A4 though. It's a very clever way to keep development costs down when the Audi/VW brand update a model. Move it to SEAT rename and brand it and you have a completely new car for no cost!!!

[LF1]

Yea Kimbers I get all that but we all understand and have a passion for cars. My point is that the majority will be seeing this as a VW issue as it's that name is in all the headlines. Not paying all that much attention myself I thought the 11m cars quoted early on were just VW marque and that the numbers for the other VAG brands were still to come out of the woodwork. I've got 2 recent cars from the VAG group, feeling even less guilty now going for the petrol variants... although I never actually felt guilty in the first place, diesels are filthy, slow things 

[Kimbers]

1.3 Million VW Skoda and Audi's recalled in UK. Yoiks!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34399503

[steve930]

waiting to see if I get a letter!

[LF1]

What are they actually doing on the recall? As I see it this is something to do with testing, not regular use. Therefore are they changing the emissions to match what the tests reported, if so how - reducing performance? Therefore would you want your call recalled?

[Bibs]

I'd have thought they'd just be removing the software which reduced emissions when the car was in 'test mode'.