The Donald.

[drdoom]

10 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

And right there, in a handful of words, you have smacked the nail on the head. Bang on.

For many who did not vote for Brexit, the only thing that would seem to please them would be for the UK to be on its knees and begging to be re-admitted. Just so they could say "told you so".  You only have to spend 5 minutes on the thread on another Lotus forum site to see that first hand.

Exactly. There is a spitefulness to the typical contrarianism abounding in the minds of many. Easy to be the petulant teenager, pouting in one's room with fantasies of megalomania as catharsis. It's for the adults to roll up sleeves and get on with the hard work in dealing with these pressing matters.  

[drdoom]

Just viewed Gov. Scharzenegger's tweet of early today, cannot overstate its cogency and value. Devolves a bit after the 5:30 mark into conventional homily but just brilliant in any case. Bravo!

[pete]

and he is a republican too

[top-plumber]

7 minutes ago, pete said:

and he is a republican too

Trump is a populists. He listens to what people are saying and acts on it. And when I say people I mean “ real people” not politicians or media contributors or establishment figures with a vested interest. Blue collar guys that have seen their jobs farmed out by corporations to cheap sub standard economies that exploit their work force and children making trainers and footballs. Yeh great eh? 
Arnold Is a failed politician. Not a good actor either so nothing to new from him. Republicans didn’t want Trump but the people “ 74 million last count do” 

You telling me Creepy Joe got more votes than Obama... come off it... 

[Chillidoggy]

13 hours ago, pete said:

@top-plumbersuppose you would vote for Buddsy to be president😱

Good idea. Best give a call on his mobile to let him know.

 

Oh, wait.....

[Loquacious Lew]

15 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Why do we need your sympathies on the Brexit thing? 

  

Well then, you don't need sympathy and I retract my comment because Brexit went so smoothly and was so reaffirming for British cultural unity.  It's over, nobody feels shortchanged and look how little residual anger remains.  

[pete]

Same as America then

[Loquacious Lew]

Same? I don't know about that but it's your challenge and judged by the reactions here, the anger is not dissipated.  One may be "bored" of Brexit but that doesn't mean the divide is over.  

 Our divide is more virulent and dangerous than yours but they 're both commentaries and clear windows into the  depth of  differences and how they raise hackles.   Brexit  also reflects problems other than just differences of opinion on Brexit itself. Also, Boris, whatever his charms or lack of them, is no Trump and you are not people lately given to storming castles.  Street violence seems to be in your recent past (Northern Ireland?) and didn't mar the debate this time.  But your politic was split in two over the issue. I'm not the person who raised the Brexit question here and really have no interest in it as it relates to Trump.  Perhaps for many who were engaged in your debate,  and especially for the losers, moving on is not as easy.  Being the loser  is always more dramatic than winning, and the costs and losses are often remembered long after winning is forgotten.   I have no desire and little to add to the Brexit debate  beyond the comments I've already made in response. I'm much, much more concerned about developments here. 

 

[andydclements]

Considering the power that is available to him as POTUS, we all are worried by what's happening in the USA.

[Loquacious Lew]

As we have every right to be.  Things will change in a week, things will improve with adults at the helm but we will not soon forget these events as they continue to reverberate and we  continue to struggle with these issues of  racism, greed and the inevitable  corruption of power and that will not end in my remaining time.  But we will not succumb to the mob.   Trump is toast but his legacy will obviously not be dispersed easily.  It's an ongoing theme. If you want to take a more positive, longer view, consider Trumpism a pustule on the face of humanity that needed to be excised. It was never going to be neutered without a battle.   He and his "handlers" made sure of that. 

Biden and Epstein?  Oh please!  I've got a pizza parlor with ogres and pedophiles in the basement to sell you.   

[DaveC72]

[C8RKH]

50 minutes ago, Loquacious Lew said:

Well then, you don't need sympathy and I retract my comment because Brexit went so smoothly and was so reaffirming for British cultural unity.  It's over, nobody feels shortchanged and look how little residual anger remains.  

The Brexit transition has actually gone very smoothly with so far, very limited impact to anyone if we are being totally honest. Yes, there is a lot of "noise" from those who were not in favour of it, but how has it really impacted them right now? Not much if at all if they were to be truly honest.  And to be honest someone was going to win and someone was going to lose and whoever lost was going to feel shortchanged and be bitter with residual anger. But hey, it could have been worse and we could have seen our seats of Government invaded by armed civilians who were only there to peacefully demonstrate. I do think you are in need of much more sympathy than us lol.

As to your comment re "reaffirming British Cultural unity" it is obvious that you don't really have a clue about it! The North and South have been divided for over a century and more.  The "feeling and resentment" between the North and South is as strong as ever.  Britain is made up of several tribes - The English, The Irish, The Welsh and the Scots.  The English are pretty much ambivalent towards the others almost to the point of being rude. Not hating them, not loving them and generally happy for them to just get on with what they want as they are just there.

The Scots give the impression that they are being oppressed by the English and that Westminster, which is in England, is the seat of the Devil and everything that comes from there is from the devils loin itself.  But, since the union about 350 years ago they have happily supported the English to build their Empire. Playing an enthusiastic part in building the army that conquered nation after nation and took their fair share of the booty and the bounty with no complaints but with a huge chip on their shoulder for some reason.  

The Welsh have cosied up to the English and have benefitted greatly economically as a result and in return the English have left them to get on with it.

The Northern Irish are in two minds. Some for, some against the closer ties to the English.

So please do enlighten me as to where this British Cultural Unity actually exists?  The only time it has existed was really during two World Wars where Britain stood with its allies and waited for the Americans to make their minds up as to whether they would join the party or not.

Obviously a little licence and tongue firmly in cheek in my response but the bare bones I think anyway, if not far from the mark

[top-plumber]

I’m more concerned when Creepy Joe is deemed unfit for office due to ill health that Harris will then be installed through the back door. She would never win in a head to head so let’s get her in by another means. 
Her identity politics stinks and will sow deeper and deeper divisions in an already divided nation. BLM is not a movement, Antifa is just an idea, defund the police is just around the corner. These Marxists are dangerous and very motivated. 

[Loquacious Lew]

13 hours ago, top-plumber said:

You telling me Creepy Joe got more votes than Obama... come off it... 

Yeah, he did actually. 

[Loquacious Lew]

22 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

The Brexit transition has actually gone very smoothly with so far, very limited impact to anyone if we are being totally honest. Yes, there is a lot of "noise" from those who were not in favour of it, but how has it really impacted them right now? Not much if at all if they were to be truly honest.  And to be honest someone was going to win and someone was going to lose and whoever lost was going to feel shortchanged and be bitter with residual anger. But hey, it could have been worse and we could have seen our seats of Government invaded by armed civilians who were only there to peacefully demonstrate. I do think you are in need of much more sympathy than us lol.

As to your comment re "reaffirming British Cultural unity" it is obvious that you don't really have a clue about it! The North and South have been divided for over a century and more.  The "feeling and resentment" between the North and South is as strong as ever.  Britain is made up of several tribes - The English, The Irish, The Welsh and the Scots.  The English are pretty much ambivalent towards the others almost to the point of being rude. Not hating them, not loving them and generally happy for them to just get on with what they want as they are just there.

The Scots give the impression that they are being oppressed by the English and that Westminster, which is in England, is the seat of the Devil and everything that comes from there is from the devils loin itself.  But, since the union about 350 years ago they have happily supported the English to build their Empire. Playing an enthusiastic part in building the army that conquered nation after nation and took their fair share of the booty and the bounty with no complaints but with a huge chip on their shoulder for some reason.  

The Welsh have cosied up to the English and have benefitted greatly economically as a result and in return the English have left them to get on with it.

The Northern Irish are in two minds. Some for, some against the closer ties to the English.

So please do enlighten me as to where this British Cultural Unity actually exists?  The only time it has existed was really during two World Wars where Britain stood with its allies and waited for the Americans to make their minds up as to whether they would join the party or not.

Obviously a little licence and tongue firmly in cheek in my response but the bare bones I think anyway, if not far from the mark

I never inferred you have cultural unity.  I'm not any sort of expert on British polity but I am passingly familiar with your versions of tribalism. I even saw Braveheart .  I include a rare  smiley so you don't take that last bit about Gibson's versions of history  too  seriously. I will include emoticons in the future so you know when I am pulling your leg.  What I said, or certainly meant to say,  was that Brexit was the latest demonstration of it being missing in battle.  My inference being that it split you even further along   predictable lines, nothing more or less.  Anyway, I am bored of discussing Brexit on a Trump thread.  I said that already, but perhaps it needs repeating for you?

[Loquacious Lew]

34 minutes ago, top-plumber said:

I’m more concerned when Creepy Joe is deemed unfit for office due to ill health that Harris will then be installed through the back door. She would never win in a head to head so let’s get her in by another means. 
Her identity politics stinks and will sow deeper and deeper divisions in an already divided nation. BLM is not a movement, Antifa is just an idea, defund the police is just around the corner. These Marxists are dangerous and very motivated. 

Do you mind if I speak my mind?  I think your post reflects your wishes, not reality. Mr. Delusional just got kicked out of office and the results of his induced mass hysteria and exploitation of grievances are all over the media.  Kamala will be fine in her role.  I'm a fan, actually.  Surprise!    She's been very tough on crime as a prosecutor in California so she will likely have a hand in prosecuting the criminals.  

BTW,  the  Brits I have met who favored Trump, also favored Brexit.  It seemed to go hand in hand.  There are always exceptions of course.  Maybe you are one of those but that's for you to tell.  

[top-plumber]

13 minutes ago, Loquacious Lew said:

Do you mind if I speak my mind?  Yours is a very ill informed  post that reflects your wishes, not reality. Mr. Delusional just got kicked out of office and the results of his induced mass hysteria and exploitation of grievances are all over the media.   The only Brits I have met who favored Trump, also favored Brexit.  It seemed to go hand in hand.  Of course, there are always exceptions.  

I would rather you spoke your mind and I’m glad to listen. However I suspect it depends entirely where you get “ your “ information from to be able to inform my ill judged comments. 
Because we disagree that doesn’t make you right. Or should I just put my fingers in my ears and hum a tune until   You see things my way ( as the left does) 

perhaps I was seeing things when the failed impeachment unfolded and the lies from the left collapsed. Or when the cities burned, or when Biden took the knee. If you don’t vote for me you ain’t black. 
did I imagine all that?

[Loquacious Lew]

You don't need to agree with me to be wrong.   I have no hope to convince anyone of anything.  This can only be discussed, it can't be resolved on a Lotus forum.  I say "You ain't gonna learn what you don't wanna know."   But I can tell you, Biden and Kamala convincingly won the electoral college and the popular vote, deny that as you will. That is reality.  Our system did not fail in that.  Trump is a monster and has never won the popular election in the USA.  Ever.  I got my info on the electoral and popular vote count from the returns as reported by the US government, delivered to them by the individual states.   I reckon they should have the most reliable  details.  Where do you get your data?  

[top-plumber]

5 minutes ago, Loquacious Lew said:

You don't need to agree with me to be wrong.  I have no hope to convince anyone of anything.  This can only be discussed, it can't be resolved.  "You ain't gonna learn what you don't wanna know."   But I can tell you, Biden and Kamala won the electoral college and the popular vote, deny that as you will. 

Not denying anything, lamenting. 
You think Trump was bad. 

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, top-plumber said:

You think Trump was bad

Not that it is worth even two cents, but here is my view. 

Initially, when running the FIRST time around I was impressed with Trumps messaging though I have to admit I knew nothing much about other than he owned a couple of Tower buildings and a controversial golf club near Aberdeen.

Specifically, what resonated with me were the messages around:

1. Make America great

2. Support American businesses and jobs

3. Build American, buy American

etc

It chimed with what I think the UK needed - we needed to stop worrying about the rest of the worlds problems (not in a heartless way) but realise that we had issues at home that urgently needed to be addressed. The imbalances of a "rigged" global supply chain that meant it was cheaper to import food from the other side of the world than it was to grow it in our own country. The various issues around working conditions for people. The access in the UK to a fair jobs market (not focused on/loaded in favour of the South East of England). The EU continually driving to a federation of states and interfering in everything you did etc etc.

I could see how many "normal" Americans could get swept up in the messaging and believe for once there might be a POTUS for them, as opposed to the wealthy connected few. A POTUS who was going to win back their jobs. Stop the rot in once great cities such as Detroit etc.  Think back then, how it was, and you can see and understand how people would have been pulled in and most importantly (and in a parallel with Brexit) how they could use their vote to PROTEST and make a difference.  Trump and Brexit were, in my opinion, really protests against the old status quo and the people generally were saying "we want change".  

Roll forward 4 or 5 years and well, Brexit has happened and the world still spins and none of us have fallen off it yet. However, in the US, Trump has morphed into a reckless, self obsessed, frighteningly out of touch and deluded human being. Obviously this is in my very humble opinion as I do not know the guy personally.

So long winded answer to a short question. Short answer - "do I think Trump was bad?" Yes. In the end I think history will not be kind to the man. However, based on his ticket First time round, I think if he had stayed on message and not got side-tracked into the circus his Presidency has become, he could have been a great President for the people.

 

[EldonZ]

You can debate political ideals and beliefs until you are blue in the face. What I try to point out about Trump is not his political ideals or policies. What I try to point out is that POTUS's main responsibility is to be a Leader. A Leader finds well qualified people and gives them a task to do. Those people bring the Leader the information that is needed to make a decision that is not up to them to make. The Leader then listens to this information and makes an informed decision. Now, if the decision is good, the Leader credits those that gave him the information. If the decision is bad, the Leader excepts responsibility and builds a path to get better information.

If you look at Trump, all he wanted was information that went along with his already conceived decision. If you didn't agree with him, "You're Fired" and disgraced. If Trump's decision was bad or wrong, it was somebody else's fault. These are not the actions of a Leader. These are the actions of an Adolescent Adult.

Later,
Eldon

[top-plumber]

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

Not that it is worth even two cents, but here is my view. 

Initially, when running the FIRST time around I was impressed with Trumps messaging though I have to admit I knew nothing much about other than he owned a couple of Tower buildings and a controversial golf club near Aberdeen.

Specifically, what resonated with me were the messages around:

1. Make America great

2. Support American businesses and jobs

3. Build American, buy American

etc

It chimed with what I think the UK needed - we needed to stop worrying about the rest of the worlds problems (not in a heartless way) but realise that we had issues at home that urgently needed to be addressed. The imbalances of a "rigged" global supply chain that meant it was cheaper to import food from the other side of the world than it was to grow it in our own country. The various issues around working conditions for people. The access in the UK to a fair jobs market (not focused on/loaded in favour of the South East of England). The EU continually driving to a federation of states and interfering in everything you did etc etc.

I could see how many "normal" Americans could get swept up in the messaging and believe for once there might be a POTUS for them, as opposed to the wealthy connected few. A POTUS who was going to win back their jobs. Stop the rot in once great cities such as Detroit etc.  Think back then, how it was, and you can see and understand how people would have been pulled in and most importantly (and in a parallel with Brexit) how they could use their vote to PROTEST and make a difference.  Trump and Brexit were, in my opinion, really protests against the old status quo and the people generally were saying "we want change".  

Roll forward 4 or 5 years and well, Brexit has happened and the world still spins and none of us have fallen off it yet. However, in the US, Trump has morphed into a reckless, self obsessed, frighteningly out of touch and deluded human being. Obviously this is in my very humble opinion as I do not know the guy personally.

So long winded answer to a short question. Short answer - "do I think Trump was bad?" Yes. In the end I think history will not be kind to the man. However, based on his ticket First time round, I think if he had stayed on message and not got side-tracked into the circus his Presidency has become, he could have been a great President for the people.

 

Only time will tell. 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Don’t forget Hitler’s gang were the National SOCIALIST Party. You can call it what you like, but they were still extreme right wing.

[drdoom]

6 hours ago, top-plumber said:

I’m more concerned when Creepy Joe is deemed unfit for office due to ill health that Harris will then be installed through the back door. She would never win in a head to head so let’s get her in by another means. 
Her identity politics stinks and will sow deeper and deeper divisions in an already divided nation. BLM is not a movement, Antifa is just an idea, defund the police is just around the corner. These Marxists are dangerous and very motivated. 

Over the top, mate. Left-ish American politicians are rather conservative by other nations' standards. There may be some overreach if the progressives somehow establish sway however Marxism has no hope of taking hold anywhere, it is neither viable nor popular. Now what's your take on the taxpayer funded, astronomical "defense" budget, a perennial gravytrain for the invested wealthy? 

[C8RKH]

I'm being educated as I didn't think the USA had a "left" in politics.

Only centre right. Right. And then Texan somewhere over the right horizon.

Just goes to show how educational TLF is!