Esprit Turbo project car - part3 - the further continuation

[Lotusfab]

Thanks will do! 

Funny how things come together at the same time. Carbs are both finished. PNM sent me the engine shims I needed. I have installed them and Just need to re check the new clearances. The gear lever C clip has arrived so that can go back together. Engine should be complete soon. Then it's onto the gearbox! 

For those of you installing the carb kit here's an idea of the o ring size for the air screw.

[jonwat]

42 minutes ago, 910Esprit said:

If your carbs are now clinically clean, make sure you apply a smear of anti seize compound to the mixture screws, they can and do seize and can become almost impossible to remove  

Had to use an impact driver to remove them on my first S3.

[Andyww]

38 minutes ago, 910Esprit said:

If your carbs are now clinically clean, make sure you apply a smear of anti seize compound to the mixture screws, they can and do seize and can become almost impossible to remove  

Good advice! One of mine was seized when I bought the car. It took a whole day of very careful drilling using circuit board drills which I fortunately have, to get it out without destroying the body.

[Lotusfab]

1 hour ago, 910Esprit said:

If your carbs are now clinically clean, make sure you apply a smear of anti seize compound to the mixture screws, they can and do seize and can become almost impossible to remove  

I have Copper slip. What do you use on carbs?

[910Esprit]

Yes, I used Comma's equivalent of Coppaslip.   Its worked well  

[Lotusfab]

Shiming

have been doing this for a while. The issue initially was the measuring equipment. I have concluded it's taking a long time  because of variations in shim measurement. You can't really order the correct size shims as your measurement if them using your instrument might be different from someone else's measurement. The only instrument that matters if the one you use. They have to be measure using your own guage other wise it's a nightmare. Ideally you would have a box of shims to try out. Having only a few is laborious. Still after some effort 7 of the eight exhaust shims are in tolerance and five outbofvout inlet, so only four left. More shiims please!

Obviously this job won't end until they are all in spec!😩😩😩😩

[Lotusfab]

Not the rantings of an idiot I hope, just and indication of the effort required to get this correct!lines mean in spec! I should have labelled them I1, E1 etc, but it's exciting knowing if you drop them there are weeks of misery ahead!

Tea!

[CHANGES]

1 hour ago, Lotusfab said:

You can't really order the correct size shims as your measurement if them using your instrument might be different from someone else's measurement.

This is so not true...   !!!!!!!!!!...   

[Andyww]

I have not worked extensively on these engines but used to do a lot on the Twincam which uses the same shims and never had any trouble with them.

Although its advised to check the thickness against that marked on it, in case the markings are wrong, I never found any which were wrong. 

There seems to be some shims in the picture with wear caused by the valve stem and that would put things out of whack when replacing with flat ones. The worn ones should be discarded of course.

[Lotusfab]

Yep that's one of the issues!

[Lotusfab]

2 hours ago, CHANGES said:

This is so not true...   !!!!!!!!!!...   

Well here's an example. if your micrometer has an error of say + 2 thou then when you measure a shim at  92 the real reading is 90. So you want to increase so you want to increase the valve clearance by 2 thou. You subtract two and order a 90 shim. The clearance is unchanged when you fit the new shim! When you measure the new shim it reads 92! If you have a box of shims the reading error is irrelevant because you only want a relative change, so it doesn't matter whether it's 90 or 92 as along as it measured with the same instrument. It also doesn't matter whether you have calibrated the micrometer.

 

 

 

[Lotusfab]

Jerry on here kindly lent me his shim stash. Had a go for an hour all shimed on the inlet size to 5 or 6 thou. Only only one left to adjust. So much easier with  the correct socket, a decent micrometer and a shim stash. I suggest anyone doing this gets all these thing in place and a save a lot of time and hassle.

Gear change lever

Inhad to get Cranford engineering to press the stud out of the linkage so I could remove the gear lever. You might have been able to get the clip off without removing the stud, but it would have been real tricky. It's back in now and the brain surgery will start when I try to install the new gear lever. Who knows the stud may be oning out again! 

[drdoom]

4 hours ago, Lotusfab said:

Well here's an example. if your micrometer has an error of say + 2 thou then when you measure a shim at  92 the real reading is 90. So you want to increase so you want to increase the valve clearance by 2 thou. You subtract two and order a 90 shim. The clearance is unchanged when you fit the new shim! When you measure the new shim it reads 92! If you have a box of shims the reading error is irrelevant because you only want a relative change, so it doesn't matter whether it's 90 or 92 as along as it measured with the same instrument. It also doesn't matter whether you have calibrated the micrometer.

 

 

 

Fabian, like Andy I've gone through this with the Twincam in my classic Elan numerous times, like yourself I know what a jumble of figures one gets to muddle through with the shuffling of shims. First point of advice is that any micrometer found to read variances of 2 thou on repeats of the same object is a laughable piece of s%*t. One should easily read fractions of 1 thou with any decent thimble mike. Haven't used my digital mike for this, on the other hand so . . .? Regarding shims I doubt they are likely to wear enough from contact to meaningfully go out of spec, so if you are truly getting variances I suggest look to other aspects of your method for the cause. Best of luck !

[CHANGES]

2 hours ago, Lotusfab said:

Well here's an example. if your micrometer has an error of say + 2 thou then when you measure a shim at  92 the real reading is 90. So you want to increase so you want to increase the valve clearance by 2 thou. You subtract two and order a 90 shim. The clearance is unchanged when you fit the new shim! When you measure the new shim it reads 92! If you have a box of shims the reading error is irrelevant because you only want a relative change, so it doesn't matter whether it's 90 or 92 as along as it measured with the same instrument. It also doesn't matter whether you have calibrated the micrometer.

 

Fabian ,

In respect to you and as a professional in this trade I refrained from commenting / advising on your work after my last posts did not seem to be taken in the spirit given.   However when you make comments like :-  

5 hours ago, CHANGES said:

  6 hours ago, Lotusfab said:

You can't really order the correct size shims as your measurement if them using your instrument might be different from someone else's measurement.

Then reply to my comment with the first quote ... Its just gets embarrassing.. 

A Micrometer is a piece of engineering equipment that is standardized so they all measure the same , Yes they should be a quality example and yes they should be calibrated ..    Calibrating is not rocket science and is the first thing any engineer will do before each session of using it.. When new like yours , should be factory set spot on ..(but still needs checking)   Why the hell would you want to work with an out of calibration piece of measuring equipment.   My only assumption is you are not using the measuring tool as designed..  There are engineers reading this that will cringe at your statements...  From your last post it would seem you have fudged your way through the task somehow....... However you need to ask what sizes for the shims will you be putting in the service notes for future reference,  when you say your micrometer has no calibration ?. 

Small point of note....  How do you know if your micrometer is 1-2-3 thou out...  Or are you saying you don't care as long as it has given you a size guide.. .. ?

 

.    

[snowrx]

6 hours ago, Andyww said:

The worn ones should be discarded of course.

You can turn the worn ones upside down and use them, as the unworn rim then contacts the underside of the tappet. As few miles as my Esprit sees, I use both sides of worn shims, giving me two measures in one shim.  With a good micrometer (.0005" even) you will see variance from marked values occasionally. 

 

I would think that working from a shim collection with a given micrometer, even if the mic was off in it's absolute measure, once you had a clearance to work from the relative measures would still get you there, as the error would stay the same as you measured other shims with the same mic.  If the mic is giving different measures of the same piece, chuck it in the bin!

 

Valve Shim Worksheet - Format, Metric & Sealant E97-W98.xls

[Barrykearley]

Sure you can get an APP on an iPhone for measuring shims

[Lotusfab]

Thanks Thomas, that's what I was getting at.

Dave,

Im not a professional and am always grateful for advice. I do have experience in measuring and errors, as I have a physics degree and practicle experience measuring things. Every measurement has an associated error. As a professional you probably have a micrometer that costs several hundred pounds and comes with a calibration piece. Some of the equipment I and others on here have been using is pretty ropey in comparison. It's not economical to spend fortunes on decent kit if your only using it once.  I now have a digital micrometer of much better quality. Some guys with have micrometers that over read of underread. My point is it doesn't matter if there is a built in error, it just means you can't order a set of shims and expect them to work first time.I have learned this through experience over the last three weeks.

Setting these valve clearances in my opinion is not a finite science. The error in the feeler guage measurement is probably +/- 1 Thou. It's very subjective. I don't think it's very critical unless you want to go racing. I have also found even with the new micrometer errors creeping in when measuring the shims. If they are worn their orientation and point of contact affect the final clearances. Theoretically it should be simple, in practice I have found it isn't. My point is it's possible to achieve the required tolerances with pretty ropey kit it just takes a lot longer. My findings are not intended for professionals, but just general comments that may be of use to other enthusiasts. As always anything in here is my own opinion and not intended to be used as a guide for any engine rebuild. You must stick to the manual!

Regardless of the above, as an enthusiast it is possible to achieve excellent results it just takes a lot longer. Judge for yourself at the end of this project! Now only need a week or two and the exhaust clearances will be done!

[Lotusfab]

Persistence  pays off,

[Stuart Monument]

Well done Fabian. Looks ace 

[CHANGES]

17 minutes ago, Lotusfab said:

It's not economical to spend fortunes on decent kit if your only using it once.  I now have a digital micrometer of much better quality. Some guys with have micrometers that over read of underread. My point is it doesn't matter if there is a built in error, it just means you can't order a set of shims and expect them to work first time.I have learned this through experience over the last three weeks.

You do not need to spend a fortune on measuring equipment for this sort of work. A digital micrometer should be more than sufficient..  NO ONE should have a micrometer that over or under reads,  you set them at '0' and they stay there..  When you have an accurate measurement , you can order accordingly..   Always best to order a few extra either side of those needed to be sure , especially when they are only £1.00 each.       When you use a micrometer the reading should always repeat , if it does not ... get rid of it..   Taking it of cause that it is being used correctly with the same ratchet torque each time ..  

18 minutes ago, Lotusfab said:

Setting these valve clearances in my opinion is not a finite science. The error in the feeler guage measurement is probably +/- 1 Thou. It's very subjective. I don't think it's very critical unless you want to go racing. I have also found even with the new micrometer errors creeping in when measuring the shims. If they are worn their orientation and point of contact affect the final clearances. Theoretically it should be simple, in practice I have found it isn't.

Uhmm sorry I disagree again..   With feeler gauges it will be more down to the individual ,  excepting up to a 2 thou variation is very large .... Unfortunately this is an area of experience rather than qualification.  Those of you that do it quite often will understand.  There is no reason why you can not acquire the feel and get very accurate settings..    I don't understand why you would say a road engine should get any less attention to detail than a race engine.  Its the same job on both and  we all want them to be the best they can be..   Not sure why even with your new micrometer you have errors creeping in , they will only measure out once , even if worn.  Again it probably more to do with how you are doing it than the tool..     At the end of the day the problems you are encountering are probably more about your lack of knowledge and experience in this field and less about the tools..    Given time it will come to you, very few are born to it..      I wish you Good luck with the rest of it..  

[Lotusfab]

Having repeated this for about three weeks it’s  definitely not an exact science. There are measuring errors all over the place.I’m sure if a group of mechanics were asked to measure the valve clearances on my engine there would be a spread of readings. I haven’t got the experience to measure once order a shim  and have the correct clearance first time. . I have to spend a lot more time on it. 

The important thing to me is, as far as I am able to determine, the inlet clearances are now as good as anyone could set them 5 or 6 thou. I will set the exhaust clearance in the same way. Hopefully soon the engine build will be done and I can concentrate on the other cosmetic stuff.

[CHANGES]

12 hours ago, Lotusfab said:

Having repeated this for about three weeks it’s  definitely not an exact science. There are measuring errors all over the place.I’m sure if a group of mechanics were asked to measure the valve clearances on my engine there would be a spread of readings. I haven’t got the experience to measure once order a shim  and have the correct clearance first time. . I have to spend a lot more time on it. 

You have made a valid point by saying you do not have the experience to do this first time ,  spending more time on it is important..    When you have done this quite a few times you will realise it is not a science , but engineering in practice.  Once you get your head round that you will find the results are repeatable and consistent..   A group of random mechanics measuring your valve clearances may show some very slightly different readings , but i would expect a group of engineers to all be the same .  It all about the people doing the job and how they address it..  I would also go as far as to say many of the members on here who do the job regular , would also get the same readings.. That comes from experience not qualification.. 

Most of the work building cars is to to with application. Understanding a design and the principals behind it is very important . Far to many novices strip clean and reassemble cars like leggo.  At this point the car may still work but will have lost all its refinement..   Its all the small insignificant details that get overlooked that compromise the quality, or as you previously said when I pointed some out to you , some pretty boring but essential tenchnical stuff.      I commend how hard you are trying with this project and recognise you have limitations which is why these problems arise.   My intention was only to point out some of the areas to help you along, not to get into debates about them .   No one else seems to do this which i find strange ,  for eg, no one pointed out that you seemed to overlook putting any Welseal around the oil seal on the head gasket when fitting , even though many have done this job and it is clearly stated in the manual..    Another point is your head to manifold studs.  These do not appear to be OEM so should be questioned ..  'Reason behind this is.'  straight thread like those you have tend to be just mild steel , not 8.8 spec..   Although when tightening these up they will except the torque , they will be on the limit and start to stretch..  The exhaust ones are of most concern , the heat expansion will stretch the stud and it will then come loose/drop out,  causing the manifold to blow.,.   A small insignificant but essential bit of technical stuff. Just because it fits don't make it right ,   NB some of the SS studs used to replace the originals are A2 spec which is also not good enough even though sold for the job..  Always go A4 or pref A6 spec on exhaust studs when going stainless.

Bringing your attention to all these points can seem very petty,   especially when you are trying so hard ,  but they were not meant as a criticism  ,   purely observations to help.           

[Lotusfab]

Thanks Dave, that’s a very long post!  I welcome any recommendations, will consider them and act if appropriate. There is of course Well seal around the O ring in the head gasket, I wouldn’t  make that mistake on a head gasket, I have had  too many issues with their failure since I owned a Morris Marina in the 80s! There’s also a Well seal around the edges of the head studs.

 I started building motorcycle engines when I was 11. I’m not really a novice having built and owned classic cars for 37 years. Anyone reading this might have already concluded that from the range of skills required to assemble these Esprit by yourself with limited professional involvement. I also built half of my S1 on the other blog, which did quite well in the Brands show and shine.  Buts it’s not my everyday job and I haven’t built an Esprit engine before.   Obviously this is not a comprehensive rebuild manual and everything isn’t mentioned. Just things to help others who go down this path. For example the carb info I included.  I welcome any inconsistencies that you point out, so please keep them coming. I can rebuild anything as many times as required. When I start this engine if it doesn’t run perfectly I will take it apart and rebuild it again.  I will now go and research the studs. If I consider it appropriate they will all be replaced. 

I have to say not all professionals seem to have the same standards as yourself, having paid people to do work for me on many differnet cars. I now maintain all of my everyday cars as I cant find reliable garage. I have been charged for oil changes that weren’t done and had many other issues, as Im sure have people on here. I saw a professional restoration recently where I would  be embarrassed to charge for the work. I would say I have already put more man hours into this car already than most would do on a whole restoration. I’m busy taking it apart again in order to improve the standard. Axminster are now making me new fuel tanks. 

I leave for all of you reading this to judge this car is including the mechanics. Hopefully it will be at the NEC show in November, If I ever manage to get the valve clearances sorted and the manifold hasn’t fallen off! 

 

[Lotusfab]

Thanks Dave, all exhaust studs are being replaced.

[CHANGES]

Your very welcome ,

Keep up the good work and dedication ,I'm sure it will all turn out fine..