Future of Lotus

[Ccd]

I’ve looked long and hard at Lotus and have reluctantly come to the conclusion that I either can’t justify a Lotus or could only justify purchasing one at a steep discount.  The reasons all come back to a failure to see any commitment by Lotus to its current lineup.  

I’m not expecting multi-million dollar ad campaigns, that is not realistic.  However, I do expect a decent webpage.  I don’t expect to wait days or weeks for parts on a $100,000 car.  I do expect Lotus to have a press car that rides the auto show market in the USA, especially in major markets where they have no presence like Washington, DC.  I would expect that perhaps select Volvo dealerships would be chosen to expand the dealership coverage in the USA which is spotty at best.  When I don’t see any of this AND their newest car is a multi-million dollar electric, unlike anything in the current lineup, I’m concerned that Lotus is going to pivot in an entirely new direction and leave it’s old lineup in the dust.

 That would not entail much pain the the US market.  There are a limited number of dealerships, all of whom primarily sell some other make and Lotus sells around 150 cars each year here.  The cost wouldn’t be that great.  The Geely purchase assured Lotus’ survival, but so far there is little indication that its future includes its current cars and that raises concerns about the level of support that will be provided for those cars in the future.

[Likuid]

I do think its time for Lotus to start teasing the next car. They just released a new parts bin Evora, I don't care anymore about some barely tweaked Evora with some name that doesn't make sense at this point. Evija is cool, but I want to see something more in their pricing wheelhouse.

[jbuenavides]

Anyone who's excited with the new sports car that Lotus will release this year? 

[C8RKH]

6 hours ago, jbuenavides said:

Anyone who's excited with the new sports car that Lotus will release this year? 

Hard to be excited about something you know nothing about. Have never seen. Have no details on. Etc....

So to answer your question. No. Not yet.

[Likuid]

Yeah even I silhouette or covered car would get some discussion going. I have to imagine they could at least provide something like that at this point.

[Sport220]

Will we really have to wait til the end of the year for any official info on the new car?

[NedaSay]

30 minutes ago, Sport220 said:

Will we really have to wait til the end of the year for any official info on the new car?

I'd say 3rd quarter... after the deliveries of Evija start.

[NedaSay]

So not directly connceted to Lotus but it may have an impact on lotus down the road. Will Geely acquire a 20% stake in Aston Martin?

Said 20% are reported to cost around  £200m to put in perspective of the $65m Geely spent to acquire 51% of Lotus.

Aston Martin appears to be in dire straits, and in urgent need of a cash influx, and as you have probably read elsewhere only 2 bidders are left in the running to prop the company up: Canadian billionaire, fashion mogul, Ferrari collector and F1 team owner Lawrence Stroll, and ZGH Geely.

It has been reported that Stroll is making a plaY to acquire the brand for his F1 team and will snap even more than 20% of stock on the open market if his offer is retained by Aston's board.  Crazier Rumours also connect Stroll to a buyout of Mercedes Petronas F1 team  by its current management. which could lead the team to be rebranded Aston Martin Racing as soon as 2021 with the team retaining the Mercedes AMG engine. Mercedes-Benz has nothing left to win in F1 and is - according to some - eager to lessen the load of non critical business units, the F1 team - in the big picture - is not seen as strategic anymore and expensive to prop. Hence a sale of the team could be in order, all the while maintaining ownership of the engine side of the business which is profitable with no less than 4 teams contracted with the company (current Mercedes works team, Racing Point, Mclaren and Williams) and still be involved in a high profile series with Formula E

On the other side is ZGH Geely. They would be interested in tech that could be shared with their other business unit (Lotus) which is funny since  Lotus did provide Aston Martin with the venerable VH platform that put Aston Martin back on the map and a bunch of engineers amongst them a certain Matt Becker...  Oh and Aston is still using the VH architecture today they just refined it with a lot more cast alloy parts... but the philosophy is the same as Lotus VVA. 

The thing is Aston doesn't have that much to offer, imo. The have a strong brand and another one that they have be trying to revive for a little while. They also have a V12/6cyl engine unit, a new sport car platform and a brand new SUV platflorm as well as a factory in Wales and cherry on top  a pile of debt. A huge pile of debt. The current management has leveraged the company big time in order to build the new factory, design that new engine, and SUV architecture, there's is also the F1 sponsorship, and the Valkyrie project which should come to fruition next year. However they do need access to Mercedes Benz parts bin for everything else and their EV projects are on ice after their Chinese partner defaulted on them. Oh and with the new LMDh retained by ACO for Le Mans 24 and the fact that Aston Martin will have to face Toyota, Peugeot, and now possibly Cadillac, Mazda...Aston's dream of winning Le Mans outright just got a bit more difficult to achieve. Aston is sort of all over the place and nowhere near their objectives.

However from Geely's point of view, 200m for the brand may be worth it if they can get synergies for Lotus, both companies are aluminium intensive in the chassis construction, both companies will need help with future tech.

Personnally I'd rather see Geely focus entirely on Lotus but I may see their point. At £200m and limited exposure in term of stock acquisition and their desire for a technical partnership, they are a solid partner who just sold a grand total of 2.1m car globally. While Stroll is probably able to bring way more than £200m but will probably shake up the management top to bottom and the company would still require a technical partnership down  the line to keep going and face the music in the next few years.   

[jep]

56 minutes ago, NedaSay said:

Aston Martin appears to be in dire straits, and in urgent need of a cash influx, and as you have probably read elsewhere only 2 bidders are left in the running to prop the company up: Canadian billionaire, fashion mogul, Ferrari collector and F1 team owner Lawrence Stroll, and ZGH Geely

The deal is done, 16.7%. Thankfully to Mr Stroll. That will please Red Bull who are linked to Aston presently...….

I hope Geely never become involved in Aston. I just do not get Aston Martin. I don't like the way the cars drive but that aside, I don't get why they are aspirational when they are always a few years (used to be decades) behind most luxury cars. I have to guess it is linked to 007.

And could someone please explain the floatation in November 2018. £19 a share, they hit £4 recently. The company is technically bust, saved by Stroll. A company bust within 14 months of taking £19 a share off folk. How is that possible, when it was obvious the valuation of billions £ was unjustifiable. Selling cars is a fickle and dangerous market, past sales are no guide to future growth, especially in a niche market.

The Lotus business model and execution may at times exasperate but I have long respected the survival of the marque, yes often with a sugar daddy but survive it has with the core values intact and always producing cars that set new standards of excellence. Sadly, excellence most buyers don't want.

I hope Geely find a way of maintaining those principles whilst finding a method to sell enough cars to make Lotus genuinely sustainable. Not an easy task. Ask Aston Martin.

Justin

[NedaSay]

Well well well I guess, the redbull Aston Martin sponsorship is soon to end... Racing Point may be rebranded in 2021. And Geely will remain focused absolutely on Lotus 

https://dailybusinessgroup.co.uk/2020/01/aston-martin-unveils-500m-rescue-plan-and-board-changes/

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/breaking-news-billionaire-stroll-takes-major-stake-aston-martin

Edited January 31, 2020 by NedaSay

[DarrylV8]

28 minutes ago, jep said:

The deal is done, 16.7%. Thankfully to Mr Stroll. That will please Red Bull who are linked to Aston presently...….

I hope Geely never become involved in Aston. I just do not get Aston Martin. I don't like the way the cars drive but that aside, I don't get why they are aspirational when they are always a few years (used to be decades) behind most luxury cars. I have to guess it is linked to 007.

And could someone please explain the floatation in November 2018. £19 a share, they hit £4 recently. The company is technically bust, saved by Stroll. A company bust within 14 months of taking £19 a share off folk. How is that possible, when it was obvious the valuation of billions £ was unjustifiable. Selling cars is a fickle and dangerous market, past sales are no guide to future growth, especially in a niche market.

The Lotus business model and execution may at times exasperate but I have long respected the survival of the marque, yes often with a sugar daddy but survive it has with the core values intact and always producing cars that set new standards of excellence. Sadly, excellence most buyers don't want.

I hope Geely find a way of maintaining those principles whilst finding a method to sell enough cars to make Lotus genuinely sustainable. Not an easy task. Ask Aston Martin.

Justin

Following this weeks news from Lotus, to me it would appear Geely have put into play, first phase; more affordable with more standard items from the options list 

although this may impact resale values it may tempt new Lotus owners from other marquee 

[KAS-118]

To be honest I'm glad Geely didn't spend a lot of money on Aston - but can instead use that to develop Lotus Road cars as well as invest in racing 

[NedaSay]

I, for one, sort of couldn't, over than synergies, AM was just a pile of debt to take on, AM is on very thin ice with huge sums immobilized everywhere and not enough cashflow to cover it all. And SUV or not, they are still going to be piling on more debt as they are trying to finish developing Valkyrie, and Valhalla and new Vanquish, and Lagonda SUV and the replacement for the Rapide which is also in their pipeline... They tried to do all of that while building a factory and a new engine without having a automotive group to really lean on since the acquisition of Lotus by Geely Aston is the last pure player, all other premium/luxury/sportcar makers are either way smaller (Morgan) or are part of car group producing in excess of 2m cars par annum.

[jonwat]

This morning's Times:

Demand from sportscar lovers in China and the US has pushed sales at Lotus, the niche Norfolk manufacturer, up by 23 per cent.

Lotus, which has spent years hitting operational brick walls or being in danger of running out of financial gas, is now owned by Geely, the anglophile Chinese automotive giant that also owns LEVC, the Coventry manufacturer of hybrid-electric black cabs.

With a reported $2 billion cheque to return Lotus to the glory days of its founder Colin Chapman, Phil Popham, its chief executive, made a splash last year with an all-electric Lotus Evija hypercar. At £1.5 million, it is aimed at showcasing the group’s ambitions.

In 2018, the year Geely took over, Lotus’s sales had dwindled to a barely sustainable 1,232. Last year, with renewed interest in the £85,000 Evora, the hitherto top-priced sportscar in a four-model stable, total sales jumped to 1,519. Sales of the Evora were up nearly 60 per cent.

Lotus historically has had little traction in China, the world’s largest market, but decided to launch the Evora at the Shanghai motor show. “There has been increased demand from the US and China where customers are more inclined to buy immediately off the forecourt rather than ordering a personal build specification and waiting a number of months for delivery,” a spokesman said. 

[The Pits]

Selling 6 cars instead of 5 in China would be a 20% increase. There really is nothing to celebrate at this moment in time beyond Lotus's survival but hopefully it will start to make some kind of sense as we approach the end of the year. The marketing strategy to date appears to be - announce £2m hypercar, change logo, reverse JMG's lighter, faster, louder, pricier trajectory. Still totally baffled by the lack of interest and support for the current range (which are all brilliant examples of cars 'For The Drivers') but best guess is that they are so far away from where the new management want to take the brand that promoting them would be counter productive to the new chapter. Lotus was sold to the new management as an opportunity for a well funded start-up. It may well be totally intentional to break ties with the past and 'old Lotus'. So the plan is to get away from track focused, hard core, impractical, bespoke, single-minded driver's cars. Trouble is, that's everything that made Lotus stand out, everything I treasure about them and the reason they sold 1500 cars last year instead of closer to zero. Building cars cheaper than Porsche is not an option so the hard truth is they will need to offer something faster, more powerful, lighter, better looking, more engaging, whilst offering at least the same level of perceived quality, reliability, useability, visibility, practicality and tech if they're going to really steal some market share at a higher price. This I believe is essentially the plan. I think there's still a lot of scepticism towards Lotus out there beyond these walls so if they falter on any one area it will be business as usual. Most people are risk averse, even more so when it comes big ticket purchases. So much of the Porsche brand and sales machine is based around reassurance. 'Evolution not revolution' being an obvious example. Maybe like McLaren the first 'Geely' Lotus will be an important first step like the MP412-C was. The 12C was considerably faster than the 458 Ferrari, was offering more advanced technology and followed the McLaren F1. 

Lotus spend money on things like double wishbone suspension that their rivals do without. It makes them expensive to make but high standards have been maintained regardless of sales success to Lotus's credit. But if you're going to charge more than a Cayman for a Lotus you need to explain to people what they're getting for the extra money. It's more a communication than a product issue. Few Cayman buyers know or care about the limitations and compromises of strut suspension or electric steering. Seems to me that now is the perfect opportunity to celebrate the current range, use them to explain the Lotus philosophy and what it offers drivers. Start making the case and building the Lotus brand. Keep people talking about Lotus. Lay some foundations for future success.

One suggestion could be a national campaign to reach out to people (men and women) who have never driven a Lotus. Celebrate it as a bucket list event in itself. You can film the 'I had no idea' revelations we read about so often taking place in real time. Weave in technical explanations for how and why this stuff if happening. Cast the net wide, invite celebrities, Youtubers, nurses, policemen, anyone who has never driven a Lotus. Film younger people experiencing authentic steering feel for the first time. Dovetails with For The Drivers perfectly.

Hollywood teases films up to a year in advance, it's a very cluttered market place for films and cars alike. I guess if the new car is delayed they need a concrete date to work towards that perhaps they don't have yet?

[blindside]

@The Pits Jonny, You’ve hit the nail firmly on the head & I totally agree with your assessment. If the current short term information vacuum at Lotus is a lull before the storm then all well & good. That said there’s now been a decent length of time since Geely took over and sought to maximise the positive energy generated by the 70th anniversary celebrations etc. 
I don’t like to be critical when there is clearly much work going on behind the scenes, but the marketing messages are confusing at best. You would have thought that they would want to keep their existing hard core (& totally ‘for the driver’ oriented) new car buying customer base very much ‘on side’. Porsche, BMW & Merc all do this pretty effectively. Look at the positive noise generated by Porsche bringing back a manual GT3, & the GT4 & new GTS/Boxter GTS packaging. All ‘manna from heaven’ for their hard core enthusiast customer segment. BMW are also doing it with their end of range M2 CS which despite an eye watering £75K tag, (a fantastic spec on paper though), is already closed for new orders. Of course all of this has a symbiotic marketing impact on their mass market profit making MPV offerings. 

What is the answer in the marketing void at Lotus? A hyper car which is hugely impressive & ground breaking, but unaffordable to all bar the über rich. Followed a few months later by a “Phil’s Spec” creature comforts, no frills Evora to make up for their short-sighted removal of the 400 which at least managed to sell in reasonable numbers. On a related note how does anyone outside the Lotus owning fraternity even begin to understand their model naming system? Who the hell is Phil? Of course I know but most new customer’s will ask and existing owners are just pis-ed off with yet another edition to further muddy the water. How does his comfort spec Evora match with a well defined & differentiated 4 litre Cayman/Boxter GTS at the around same price point? Not at all close in truth.

I really hope that their long term plan provides something special that can at least match relative performance offerings in the £70-150k price point from Stuttgart. I went for a drive in a mates new manual GT3 very recently. Massively impressive & hugely enjoyable in every respect, but I’d still (by a very fine margin) prefer the 430 if/when you factor in the cost comparison. 

Fingers firmly crossed that Lotus are planning to produce something groundbreaking ‘for the driver’ that matches core principles & really takes it up a level. 🤞
 

[The Pits]

The next car will be jaw dropping if they let Russell Carr have free rein. But there must be some tough decisions to make in terms of aesthetic appeal versus daily use practicality. Generally Porsche tends to favour practicality in a head to head. Lotus traditionally have been willing to sacrifice rear visibility for a big wing, intercooler or roof scoop, certainly manna from heaven for me but wider market probably prefers to have a good view for reversing, oblique junctions and the like. 

As things stand the Evora based car will not a step forward in terms of spec to what we are very fortunate to own currently Jimmy. May even be a step down in outright performance but interior tech should be a giant leap forward. For those that are excited by such things, it's all good news. It might not make it to production but they were planning to make more accessible one tech feature that is only just now being introduced in the hypercar space. So I think the Lotus tradition of a more affordable taste of exotic car ownership will continue at least. I would rather they spent the money on high performance hardware than software but the less car-crazed buyer is likely to be more impressed by fiddling with some snazzy on-trend gadgets in the showroom than the ability to dial out some understeer in the pitlane. As said already before, if Lotus get it right it's likely to appeal less to me than what I've already got. If that's the case so be it. Will certainly be very different car inside and out to the Evora which many people here say they want to see. If it's a success then I'm sure it will encourage Lotus to build higher performance versions that may appeal more to me. My advice to any Evora or Exige 430 owners is to hang on to your cars until you see what's coming. What's another year in one of the best driver's cars ever built?

[blindside]

We’ll continue to wait with bated breath!

[Sport220]

I have just checked the pricing of the new 718 GTS 4.0 and it does make the Evora GT 410 look massively overpriced...

Just give us a little teaser of the new car FFS, the wait is unbearable

[C8RKH]

I almost bought a DB11 at the weekend, numbers looked good. When it really came down to it just could part with the Evora.

I must have a thing for troubled car makes....

Still swithering. 

[The Pits]

Only if you want a Cayman, not everybody does. Evora has never been cheap to buy or cheap to make but to me it’s massively more desirable than a Cayman or 911. If I really wanted a Porsche I would have one already and most likely wouldn’t touch Lotus with a barge pole.

If I was German and I liked Porsches I would probably go for a Cayman GT4 although it would be an eternal frustration to me that Porsche wouldn’t put the GT3 engine in a Cayman (or start mid-mounting engines in the 911). As such both cars are compromised way below their potential. Or maybe I’d just think ‘hey it beats a Camry engine’ like everyone else and make do.

If you’re going to spend a lot of money it’s generally better to spend a bit more and get the thing you really wanted than to save some money and settle for 2nd best. I don’t see the Cayman GTS as good value I see it as a huge amount of money for a car that I don’t really want. Evora costs a lot more but I would spend every waking moment working out my dream spec, photoshopping colours and placing a bespoke factory order. I’d visit Hethel to watch it being built and meet the lady who did the stitching and the guy who’s name is on the build plate. I was surprised to discover that most new Lotus are bought from a showroom, factory orders make up considerably less than half the total new sales. In some other markets and with some other brands it’s a lot lower than that. Unless it’s a really special car and a really special experience I struggle to see the point of buying brand new. But clearly I’m in a minority!

[blindside]

I’m with you but I’d forgotten just how good the naturally aspirated flat six GT3 engine with the 9k rpm red line sounds! Also no hesitation, no flat spots, just masses of grunt. It was quite compelling to drive. I was still thinking about it for days afterwards!

That’s before you even start to look at the impressive array of creature comforts to be had. All adds to the list price, which takes it well north of Lotus price wise. But overall if you take residuals etc. into account it is a very attractive proposition.

[Jonathan E]

3 hours ago, The Pits said:

I would spend every waking moment working out my dream spec, photoshopping colours and placing a bespoke factory order. I’d visit Hethel to watch it being built and meet the lady who did the stitching and the guy who’s name is on the build plate. I was surprised to discover that most new Lotus are bought from a showroom, factory orders make up considerably less than half the total new sales. In some other markets and with some other brands it’s a lot lower than that. Unless it’s a really special car and a really special experience I struggle to see the point of buying brand new. But clearly I’m in a minority!

I've just spent the last 8 months doing exactly this but with an Elise, I was offered some exceptionally large discounts on showroom models from 4 different dealers, I'm not sure if thats due to lack of sales in the current market or not, but I suspect dealers must have some insight into what Lotus will be doing in the coming months and its no real secret that the Elise will soon end production. I've bought a Cup 250 to my exact specification with some discount but nowhere near what I could have had on a showroom model, I'm also hoping to see it in production, meet the the stitching lady and "Billy the bolts" when I visit the factory which should be in the next few weeks😆😉. I've owned 9 previous Elises, 3 of which were brand new showroom stock but the last 4 have been used examples all different models, this one will probably be my last Elise and thats why Billy and Mrs Stitchy will be getting a visit from me👍.

I doubt the car will be without faults, I know the brand and I've had enough of them to know what owning a Lotus means, but I also want to get a new Elise while it still has the original DNA(I know its not a S1, but you know what I mean). I could have bought a Porsche but somehow they just don't do it for me, I don't "get" them. If Lotus intend to take a new direction with their cars as seems to be the case, they need to shift whats left of the current models/chassis, announcing new cars at this moment in time wouldn't do them any favours.

I've bought my new Elise in the hope that its one of the last of the line, I wouldn't be surprised to see more heavily specced models before production actually ends as a way of tempting people to part with their hard earned, isn't that what the latest Evora is? and isn't that what all vehicle manufactures do when a model is coming to the end of its life maybe they'll throw a Volvo engine in it or even some electric motors?. If Lotus are to flourish they really are going to have to produce very different vehicles to what they have now, and they're going to have to learn to put them together well too, I wish them all the luck in the world but I'll be sticking with my 2020 Elise thanks very much, which I guess that puts me in a minority too, but I suspect the vast majority of current Lotus enthusiasts are exactly that. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Jonathan E

[The Pits]

Cup 250 is a certainly a driver’s car for the ages in my book. Congrats. 👍

Sale of new petrol cars banned in the UK from 2035 today. Other countries are aiming for 2030. All car makers will have to change radically in this decade. Those who have a thing for petrol cars need to start thinking about their petrol keeper if they don’t already own it.

[Jcx]

17 hours ago, The Pits said:

If you’re going to spend a lot of money it’s generally better to spend a bit more and get the thing you really wanted than to save some money and settle for 2nd best.

Totally agree!  I wanted a 410 but didnt want to pay 410 money so bought a 350 and never stopped looking at 410s so bit the bullet and traded the 350 for a 410.  In 7-weeks my Lotus owning history went from none to two.

I've owned 6 Porsches - 2 Boxsters and 4 911s.  One air-cooled and one turbo.  Enjoyed them all in different ways but none of the 6 made me feel like my 410 does.  None were as much fun to drive.  None felt as special. 

I do think the new GTS 718 is a very good value package and will no doubt be a great car to drive.  And if it were my only car I'd lean towards that rather than an exige.  But as a play thing, a toy car, for drives and giggles, there really is only one car for me right now.  And i am lucky enough to have the key within sight.