Future of Lotus

[NedaSay]

AutoExpress rendering of Project Gamma, they obviously designed that using  the 2010 DB Elise design.

Edited April 28, 2020 by NedaSay

[C8RKH]

So the general consensus, as I read it, is Lotus has a poorly articulated strategy. Increasingly disengaged customers and dealers. A declining market share. Old models in the showroom 

So with a significant investment (remember Popham said £1 5bn was very conservative) WHAT has the new management actually delivered? What significant outcomes have they delivered? At least Bahar got 5 great looking concepts produced! This just feels like hype and positioning over substance. It's as is the last 10 years never happened.

That video interview has just totally deflated me.

 

[Barrykearley]

50 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

At least Bahar got 5 great looking concepts produced!

You aint alone in that thought - the Esprit was very close to launch as well apparently. Oh well - we can only hope.

[The Pits]

Never had you down as a lightweight Andy!

You're meant to be grinning with your fingers in your ears humming happy tunes to yourself - for another 2 years - before finally cracking and marching down to the Porsche dealer, tears streaming, to order your protest electric Cayman GTE. By then Porsche should have realised the huge potential in lightweight engineering, inspired by their kick up the arse from Alpine and have committed to using their huge resources to making every car lightest in class. They also kickstart the new trend for discreet, hidden, integrated, interior tech which doesn't distract the driver. Lotus, now occasionally 3rd lightest in class, have an ipad sprouting from every interior surface just in case you didn't notice how into tech they are now. There are more chimes and bongs in there than a headshop. But reassuringly, they are still talking about the importance of Lotus DNA. They finally soil the Esprit name in a last ditch attempt to sell their unwanted 2 ton SUV. On the plus side, people have finally started to appreciate the authenticity and simple genius of the pre-2020 Lotus cars. Values are up across the board, particularly for the wonderful Evora Sport 410 at long last, the near mythical Fire Red car that you flogged on eBay for £35k takes pride of place in the Lotus heritage collection.

Have a great day 😁

[C8RKH]

I've been called many things over the years Jonny, but lightweight? Well, maybe below the belt, certainly not above it! 😂🤣 Though to be fair the lbs are dropping thanks to Covid.

I enjoyed that post @The Pits as it resonated. Even though it was filled with sarcasm and irony. It hit the nail on the head! I bought my 410 sport as for me it truly did embody what Lotus was all about. I was close to buying the orange GT430 but Jimmy beat me to it. I dithered too long. But I wish Jimmy all the best with it 👍

I've looked at Porsche as I've said. Great packages if we are honest. Well made, well engineered but to me just sterile. Devoid of passion. Too clinical. Too safe. Anonymous really. But the new GT4 will be a cracker for sure but looks wise it will still be a Porsche.

If I don't buy a 430 the 410 is a long term keeper. £10k and it will have the 430 Ohlins and 475 bhp. That would be some car.

I do keep looking at McLaren but the build quality and long term ownership proposition worries me. However I do like the 570S styling (I do really like the MP4 too and they are a bloody bargain right now) and the new GT. 

I'm trying hard to be upbeat but Lotus are making it hard to stay in love. I love the brand. The history. The quirks. The underdog who beats the establishment. But Lotus is sounding more and more like the establishment. Run by motor industry journeymen, who log on everyday to spreadsheets and spend more time with the bean counters and little time with the engineers. The designers. The handling experts etc.

They can talk about Lotus DNA all they want, but Colin will be turning in his grave. Look what MJK achieved? Look what he had to work with? But even now he still has that spark in his eye. That cheeky grin and an air of dogged determination and mischievousness. Did anyone get that from Popham and the team? It was just bland corporateism to me.

Sorry. Will try harder to get the love and enthusiasm back 

 

 

[The Pits]

You can always put the news on if you need cheering up! 😉

Black humour aside, it's easy to throw stones behind a keyboard and I've always suspected that Lotus probably need to be doing things to upset the few nutters who bought their old cars, in order to appeal to a much larger number of people who aren't that 'into' cars. Clarkson proved how popular a car show could be when you stopped talking about boring technical stuff and started having a laugh and doing knob jokes. Lotus probably wouldn't be going far enough if everyone here was whooping for joy. I'd like to think that the best strategy would find a way to bring the nutters along for the journey somehow but perhaps they believe the sooner they get away from trackdays, spring rates, Cup2s and steering feel the better. Popham was involved with the Evoque, wildly successful of course but no doubt the Defender owners club still haven't gotten over it. Somehow they turned Land Rover, the most earthy, salt of the earth brand (on earth), into a fashion accessory.

[Barrykearley]

You guys are forgetting these cars are built in Britain. That alone, faults an all, makes them superb things.

[The Pits]

MJK absolute hero and much missed. Suggest they use lockdown to clone him and Chapman ASAP!

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, The Pits said:

Somehow they turned Land Rover, the most earthy, salt of the earth brand (on earth), into a fashion accessory.

Well, Defender's have always been trendy around the county tweed set where I live, and Range Rovers too.  It's a bit like Burberry and Harris Tweed, as the gentrification of the countryside has influenced people's thinking on lifestyle etc. Obviously also helped by footballers and their wives driving the bloody things too.

I'd hate Lotus to be a fashion accessory but then as others have said there are alternative fashion brands to buy. Porsche being one. I will say though that the shift upmarket in terms of following the fashion hasn't really helped Maserati long term has it?

 

Macca 570GT, nice interior and exterior colour combo. Only 850 miles from new. £113k at a Macca dealer, but reckon I could get it for £100 - £105k.  That is what Lotus is going to up against as it moves up the hierarchy...

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Not sure Maserati has gone upmarket recently. Over the years, they have fluctuated from the Thinking Man’s Supercar in the early days (and F1 champions) to today’s diesel engined mid range saloon. Remember the 5000GT that only Heads of State and the super rich could afford? The original Ghibli cost more than a Ferrari Daytona. Then came the Bora and the Khamsin, supercars both, that only the richest cognoscenti could buy. Unfortunately this resulted in them going down-market with the Biturbo era. Things picked up Again with the 3200GT, Quattroporte, 4200GT and Gran Turismo, but finally nose-dived with the advent of the new unloved Ghibli and an SUV.

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Not sure Maserati has gone upmarket recently. 

Sorry, maybe I mean they have tried to go "more popular" to appeal to a wider audience but to little success.

[The Pits]

Another great brand with so much potential Maserati. That name could sell used bog roll. 

But by thunder they'd do better making cars the designers and engineers want to make, cars worthy of the badge. What's been allowed to happen to Lancia is enough to make a grown man weep.

MG today is nothing more than garnish on the bonnet of some shite Chinese SUV copy of some shite Japanese SUV copy of some shite European SUV.

If I was a big MG fan I'd rather they called it a Dungshat or whatever and stopped tarnishing the badge. Survival at all costs can come at a terrible price!

 

 

[jonwat]

Not sure if this the correct thread but there's some cracking pictures in this Autocar article. 😀

The highs and lows of Lotus

[C8RKH]

5 minutes ago, The Pits said:

MG today is nothing more than garnish on the bonnet of some shite Chinese SUV copy of some shite Japanese SUV copy of some shite European SUV.

 

Those things are so cheap you get one free with every Covid19 testing kit multi-pack. They even ripped off the Mercedes diamond grill lol.....

The below was unashamedly ripped straight from MG UK website, the words in bold where the only ones changed (except for headings). Scary or what? The similarities are astounding, let's hope the future products are not so similar!

Lotus is back

Today, Lotus is more than an iconic circular badge; it is once again a motoring force to be reckoned with. Our much-loved British brand has been re-launched with the financial backing of one of the world’s largest car manufacturers, which allows us to stand tall in the global market. 

The current range of Lotus models, that were designed and engineered at our site in Hethel, Norfolk, and our Design Studio in Hethel, Norfolk, include the Elise, Exige, Evora and Evija, which was launched in 2018, is a supercar packed with more fun, practicially and specification than any of its rivals, and at just a fraction of the cost, while the Evora, launched in 2009, is the family-ready compact sports car packed with next-level technology. 

With strong financial backing and a bright future, Lotus is now ready to write the most exciting chapter in what is already a very colourful story, which started with the launch of it's first electric car, Evija, in September 2018.

DESIGN CENTRE

Led by European Advanced Design Director, the UK team is responsible for the interior and exterior design of all Lotus products across the globe. The dedicated xx-strong team works in a new state-of-the-art facility which opened in Hethel in September 2018. It takes designs from 2D rendering through to virtual reality.

[blindside]

5 hours ago, The Pits said:

I'd like to think that the best strategy would find a way to bring the nutters along for the journey somehow but perhaps they believe the sooner they get away from trackdays, spring rates, Cup2s and steering feel the better.

+1 entirely agree. It sounds increasingly as if the new target customer audience they are after & building towards is more in Bentley's niche & price point. (Perhaps a better benchmark for Popham than Aston because of its profitability at long last, plus the VW ownership synergies with Geely). If so they obviously have a massive challenge on their hands. That kind of holistic 'ground-up' brand & product re-invention will require some really deep pockets, some inspired leadership and very clear communication at every stage of their evolving strategy. Apart from the big bucks assurances there's no evidence of the other key attributes since the 70th celebrations at Hethel. 

Subjective opinion, but I think they've badly miscalculated over the wants & needs of their target customers, including the younger millenial buying demographic. Perhaps Alpine would have been a more appropriate benchmark for Lotus to aim for from a product & commercial perspective. It would have retained many well established core values (and possibly kept most of the nutters on board), but there you go, change is a constant.

I appreciate that it is far too easy to be overly critical, especially in light of the broader turmoil that the senior management are facing across the entire car industry. But past customers are perhaps well qualified to have an opinion and every owner I've ever met is deeply passionate about the marque. There's usually a very good overriding reason for buying any car; especially if it purports to be something special that is more than just the sum of its parts and comes with a higher price tag. It would be great if they listened to well intentioned feedback from their current customers, but life moves on. I really hope the factory and all it represents survives and prospers. In any event fortunately there are still other palatable 'for the driver' options on the market that broadly align with most of design & engineering 'adrenaline rush'  factors that Lotus cars have been renowned for in the past.

 

[C8RKH]

4 minutes ago, blindside said:

building towards is more in Bentley's niche & price point. (Perhaps a better benchmark for Popham than Aston because of its profitability at long last, plus the VW ownership synergies with Geely). If so they obviously have a massive challenge on their hands.

I know several Bentley customers, long term ones.  Bentley has a brand following that borders on the fanatical as much as Lotus.  They love and cherish the stories of the old "Bentley Boys" and their daring doings and they love the refined, sporting elegance of what Bentley stands for. It takes a certain mindset to buy a 2.5ton car, with a 6.75ltr twin turbo engine as a "sports" option to a similar RR! 

A lot of these guys are self made (the guy who runs Pimlico plumbers is a repeat fan having had over a dozen from new) and one, a close friend and neighbour had three in his stable (yes, real stable) alongside a RR Wraith, a Lamborghini, 2 classic merc convertibles, a 911 and a Maserati. No Lotus though and he never had one, but his past cars included numerous Astons and a super range of Ferrari's including an F40, 2 x F50, a Maranello 550 and 575, a F355, a F360, and a stunning 512 BB.  Bentley owners tend to really like cars. Great cars. Well made and engineered cars. With a real passion for detail. They love talking cars and the experience they have had with them. Most of them considered the GT as a "cheap watering down of the brand!"

If Lotus is really going to compete with Bentley then bloody hell. I wish them well. But they will need to change everything  - not just the cars, but the dealers showrooms (all of them), the quality of the fittings in the cars, the tech, the marketing, the aftersales, the experience from soup to nuts.  A herculean task in my opinion. Aston is struggling. Ferrari is booming. Mclaren is doing OK. Porsche is booming. HIstory, legacy, years of brand building. That is what is keeping Porsche and Ferrari at the front. And great cars even if the former are not really for me.

[The Pits]

The principal driver for many Porsche and Ferrari sales is the opportunity to make money, or at least lose very little while enjoying a fast, flash car on finance that will impress your mates and make your neighbours envious. People are quick to forget but before the whole 'overs' thing on Porsche GT cars (which was concocted as a way to shift the slow selling 918 Spyder) Porsche GT was neither a bank machine nor particularly cheap way to own the cars Chris Harris said you should buy. Just to back this up, there were very few sales of the now revered 997 GT3RS 4.0 in the UK. Hard to believe now but they couldn't shift more than 29 cars here. Even with a sub £140k list price which seems relatively reasonable now for a car that went on to sell in excess of £600k to the same UK buyers who passed it up when it was new!

Getting in early on the latest Ferrari has long been a money spinner. For some years people have played the game and had deposits on several cars at once. Took delivery, thrashed them for 1000 miles, flogged for a profit and waited for the next one to arrive. It has been great for those more interested in money than cars but has left a terrible legacy for true petrolheads. Remember when anything under 50k miles was low mileage? That badge is now only awarded to sub 10k miles for most expensive modern cars. Sub 3k miles for most Ferraris. Depreciation past 10k miles is severe on most cars now. I put nearly 20k miles on my V6 Cup without a thought. Still low mileage as far as I was concerned, especially with an engine good for what? 250k miles without a rebuild? Probably more. I'm definitely more aware of putting miles on the GT430 which is tragic. Youtubers are talking about 6,000km being the limit. They are having their cars trailered to places like Scotland. It's absolutely stupid and goes completely against reality and science but the genie's out of the bottle now and there's no going back. Highest mileage McLaren 650S for sale on ph? 9,000 miles. 12C on there is probably considered unsellable at 40k miles. Yours for around £60k.

The choice for new car buyers quickly becomes keep it forever and rack up the miles or move it on early. When everything depreciated you got a return on your investment through memories created on great road trips. It will be really interesting to see what the fall out from all of this is but high end cars have been bought in huge numbers over the past 10 years all fuelled by cheap finance. Over 50 Mc720S for sale on PH currently. Nearly 70 Ferrari 488s. Nearly 80 458s. Nearly 200 911GT3 for sale just on one UK website. This is before the economic downturn has really started to bite. Crazy times folks.

[Loquacious Lew]

7 hours ago, The Pits said:

There are more chimes and bongs in there than a headshop....................

Have a great day 😁

Quote of the day!

[Nelly]

Can't argue with much on the last few posts on this thread - as mentioned staggering variety of used car choice at the £80k - £130k  region.

I think the delays are what concern me the most - great there is all this new investment, but we have the halo car first (Evija) which most mere mortals won't be able to afford, whereas the rest of the range which desperately needs updating won't be done, as we now know, for at least another year, maybe more if the virus continues its effect.  I fear Lotus are being left so far behind.

I very nearly said on my comment on the US LOT thread what someone above mentioned about Bahar, his plan may not have happened by my god was there something to be excited about.

The sportscar market has its own echelons and I always saw Lotus in with Porsche, at the lower end - fine by me, it means used cars fall into my price bracket.  I remember seeing the Evora launch and hoping one day I could get one.  The fact that McLaren are also in that bracket now is a little false, by rights they shouldn't be but low confidence/reliability and over supply looks to be killing used car values.  I follow @JayEmm's channel since his Lotus days and he has done some very interesting videos on McLaren following a recent dual purchase by his friends - worth watching, and quite shocking.  Still, a lottery win would definately see one in my garage.

[C8RKH]

@The Pits - I agree with you it is bonkers. However, a 30k miles, well looked after Macca MP4 for say £65k is in my mind a keeper. You could buy it, do 10k a year in it for 10 years, and still not lose as much as buying a brand new Aston Martin DB11 and keeping it for 3 years and 30k miles!   

Now, a Macca 570s, at £85k, sub 5k miles and I would be buying that as a long term keeper and enjoy it, rather than think about the miles and resell!

 

[Bibs]

9 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

do 10k a year in it

That's a lot of trips to and from the garage for warranty work! 

[C8RKH]

1 minute ago, Bibs said:

That's a lot of trips to and from the garage for warranty work! 

Might not be far from the marque!  (sic)

 

Maybe McLaren today is the Lotus of yesteryear in terms of ownership, certainly at the used prices?  Certainly a lot of Lotus DNA in the current McLaren cars, largely due to the number of people who moved from Norfolk to Suffolk!!!  If I had to drive something other than a Lotus, then a McLaren would be the obvious choice for sure.

[Bibs]

I know a fair number of people who have had them but very few who would have more of them. 

[mg4lotus]

I see a lot of posts on here talking about the new Esprit. I'm probably being naïve, but why isn't the Evora the new Esprit?

[The Pits]

McLaren bashing is currently all the rage. JayEmm is just jumping on the band wagon, it’s helped his channel no end by the look of it. After putting up with years of prejudice against Lotus I’m not inclined to join in with it, especially without any first hand experience.

They’ve ruffled a lot of feathers among the supercar establishment. Making the usual names look a bit slow is probably the biggest insult you can dish out. Make no mistake, Ferrari’s turbocharged 488 was a direct response to the 12C wiping the floor with the 458. Lots of fanboys wish to see them fail. Porsche fans tend to mock and sneer at anything built in Britain anyway. Makes it easier to hand over huge cheques to the Germans I guess?