General Election - 8 June 2017

[C8RKH]

I'm sorry, but an increase in spending is not a cut. Let's get the terminology right.  And whether an increase is in line with past increases or not is not the issue. If you want to look at past increases then you need to factor all sorts of other things in like costs, inflation, efficiency etc.  Something the public sector (and Labour) does not seem to understand is that year on year increases need to be tied to things like inflation. We have had a period of historically very low or even negative inflation, yet all Public Sectors and their staff expect a year on year increase in budgets and pay?  How does that work then? We need a pay rise as the stuff we bought last year is was expensive than the stuff we will buy this year?

I already called out that the main issue is the rise in demand, due to social demographics and life style choices. The NHS is being asked to do much more with little more. To be pedantic, that is not the whole sales "cuts" in NHS Budget that the Left keeps on harping on about.  

I agree with you fully @franjipane that it is not as simple as the Press or the POLITICIANS of any side would have us believe which is why I specifically called you out on the use of the word "cuts". There have been no cuts in expenditure. A figure of speech maybe, but it is important to get it right.

When spending gets tight, each one of us, like the country as whole, has two choices. (1) we cut back our spending on the non essentials (2) we find a way to make more money - e.g. get a 2nd job, or a better job etc.

What I see from Labour and Corbyn is that they discount (1) - as this is a really tough conversation to have as you will always piss some body off who ends up with less than they had before. So, they focus on (2) and that then means that they focus on the easy target of the middle classes, who already contribute the most, to contribute even more.  It's total bollocks to be honest as ultimately all we will do is make the middle class poorer too. They will then spend less. Spending less means that manufacturing and service industries suffer. Which means the people who work in them get paid less or get laid off - this is exactly what happened in the US and why we now have Trump in power. And so the spiral of death continues. The race to the bottom accelerates. Where is the aspiration to do better. Where is the Labour and Corbyn plan to create new wealth (option 2) without just targeting one group of society? Look at the countries that are doing well. India, China for example. They are sponsoring and supporting, rewarding and encouraging a huge boom in the growth of their middle class. They want people to aspire to move up. That drives consumption of products and services. Which brings up living standards not just for the middle class, but the working class too, and provides an aspirational platform for the working classes. It worked for me!

I do think the current politics of the Left are easy to shoot down. Lots of great ideas on the sharing of wealth from hard working, law abiding citizens, but not a fooking clue about how to create new wealth or to really tackle the abuses at the top by some corporations and individuals (despite what we are told many companies and people do pay what they owe!).

I'm not a total Tory fanboy, but I do agree with them when they say the UK is not full of magic money tree's. I do think they will ask some of the tougher questions, even thought they know they will piss loads of people off and get every socialist out on a march about anything they do or propose. Many people also do not go on these marches as they are too busy working to provide for their families.

[Chillidoggy]

Overpopulation is the biggest problem the NHS has.

[C8RKH]

Agreed. Logan's lot had the solution.

The point I am trying to make is that even though the clear FACT is that we are putting more money into the NHS it needs even more due to social demographics. This is not just down to immigration, though net positive immigration is a factor, it is mainly down to us being fatter, lazier and livibg much longer.

So what we have to do is continue to add cash, but also innovate to drive efficiencies and focus on tge outcomes delivered.

Corbyn's answer is to just throw more and more money into it. That is not a smart, sustainable, long term solution.

[Chillidoggy]

The bloke who lived across the road from me used to work for a drug company that supplied the NHS. He confirmed what you're saying about prices, and made a very good living on the back of it.

Just getting a GP's appointment is a total joke these days. My surgery used to be reasonably good, I could phone up, and arrange to see a GP. Now, I can never get through on the phone, and the online booking service has never worked in the last 16 years. The only chance I have is to get in the car, drive there, and force my way through the eastern european cattle-market to the reception desk, only to be told there are no appointments available with my GP and if I want to see one, I'll have to come back later and wait until one is free, but not guaranteed.

The local hospital A&E is the same, although since I've stopped falling off ladders and haven't been for a while, I imagine it is. This is no reflection on the staff, they have always been good, but they're overwhelmed by numbers. It never used to be like this, the GP's used to deal with all the minor stuff that people now go to A&E for.

[Jacques]

Not my election really, but the Eastern European cattle as you say, are there because their home countries won't or can't spend an amount of Money, which correlates to the Funding needed. There are many reasons for this. One is the traditional very low tax paid by both low income, middle income and high income population. They are out of a job and they seek another wealthier income in western europe. Anyone pressed hard enough would move. Just wait till china or India gets into too many problems, and large scale population Groups begin to be on the move. Then no political system will be able to stop them from going West.

Another is the standard of the NHS. It's bad, low paid and doesn't Work. If you have Money, you go to a private GP. If not, get back in the line. A private GP is making less Money than almost any other job in the Eastern europe. The political systems and borders have been held very tight for decades, assembeling large numbers of polulation Groups, which have been without any help at all. They die Young. No Medical help combined with a non-sustainable way of living. All resourced are now taken by chinese or western European countries, WHO make huge amounts of Money by exploiting the resourced in Eastern European countries. Will that Money then benefit our countries, and thereby also help the "newcomers"? No. Because it's all private sector and they don't pay tax. They rerun the Money into hedgefunds and the like. So no Money to benefit anyone. And the EC made all of this possible, or rather, made it worse.Because it have existed since the end of ww2.

It's always ben like this: the general population gets very Little and the few makes all the benefit. That we generally have a better living standard, and a larger tv, does not compute with he rich Companies. It'sa benefit of our own  and because someone else in the World are being exploited.

Kind regards,

Jacques.

[Bibs]

[Kimbers]

I was bitten by a Dog last week and ended up calling the Docs as it got infected. I had to go to another Doctors, 10 miles away. Not an issue for me but imagine if it was an older person with no car etc.

15 years ago my wife was the last Nurse to be trained by the existing team of Nurse trainers at NNUH. they were laying them all off after their course finished. My wife said at the time that just because there were enough nurses now doesn't mean laying off all the trainers was a good idea as they will need to keep training people. Unfortunately the Govt disagreed and laid them all off. This happened countrywide.

It's not just core budgets that need to be looked at, its support services! There aren't enough beds in the community or Community nurses to care for people at home. there aren't enough Mental health professionals or beds for people with mental health issues. There aren't enough GP's, surgeries or staff to man the phones. There aren't enough Ambulance staff, equipment is tired and needs replacing and there aren't enough people in A&E (and its getting worse as Nurses and Doctors in A&E burn out and leave and aren't replaced.

I agree it's not just about budgets, it's also about the population. For example, the next village to mine had a population of 4000. They have just built another 400 houses and are half way through building a huge estate of 1500. The Doctors and Dentsist surgeries are tiny with 4 doctors and 2 dentists. they can't cope, they also cover all the villages within 7 miles of there. And they are all getting more houses as well!

There is no extra money for extra schools to cover the influx of children, no money being spent o the roads, they are backed up now! WHat will happen with another 3000 cars just fro that one estate?

They are building on the parks and recreation grounds as well, so nowhere for the kids to go! 

Yes I agree money is a huge issue and we may have to think about paying a little more to get the services we demand, but population is another huge issue and until it gets resolved then I can see a collapse coming.

[Chillidoggy]

I hope the dog is none the worse.

[basalte]

Hi, its fair to say that I rarely disagree with totally everything that people above post and vice versa. 

But one recurring theme that does divide opinion is of course the existence or otherwise of "The Magic Money Tree".

This tree seems to get dragged out at elections like the plastic one from the loft every Christmas. (Usually by politicians who however don`t mind using said tree on the sly to pay for their Duck Islands or Moat-cleaning services).

The short easy answer for me (if not you)  is that over 100 economics professors have just endorsed Corbyn`s manifesto policies in an open letter to the media .

Stephen Hawking has also endorsed Corbyn-and that guy is very good at maths (though I wouldn`t bet on him in the pole-vault).

Apart from that easy way out above for my arguments (!)  the idea of " printing more money" by the State attracts opprobrium but is quite simply not irresponsible in itself.

The comparison with any household is misconceived (unless that household is run by forgers !)  

The problems begin with "more money out there" when spending is too high and tax too low,  so inflation sets in.

Its surely what that money gets used for that is the priority issue here. At the moment money  is being used to prop up the banks ( or to be cynical, bankers` bonuses) . The ratio of quantitative easing to lending is not particularly good.

 Will it be used to invest in infrastructure (perhaps the one area where Trump and Corbyn agree ?) which in turn facilitates new business ?  In other words, investing for the future ?  

Good health is somewhat indefinable as a contributory factor in productivity but there is a strong argument that it is worth having in itself.  I personally would gladly pay more tax to see an NHS emerge from its undoubted crisis but that needs a whole thread.

Likewise good education and training based on ability not wealth - a strong argument that it is worth having in itself. I am firmly in favour of the abolition of tuition fees for that reason.    

In partial answer to Steve`s very valid  point above about small businesses facing severe challenges, there are multiple factors and the wage bill is one of them. Cannot we see adjustments to other impositions so that paying a living wage is not only possible but desirable ? At that level of payment (£10 an hour) the "extra" can often get spent at the very businesses who pay it ! I note that Labour says they won`t tax businesses or individuals whose income / turnover is less than £80,000 a year so there is a "carrot" there for startups. Can you trust them? Trust the figures ? Well sheer logic might compel you to do so after the loop-the-loop we`ve seen from the Government and their Manifesto of Misery with no figures in it at all.  

 

       

 

    

Edited June 6, 2017 by basalte

[Chillidoggy]

Nope.

[Kimbers]

There £13 billion a year in foreign aid that should be spent on our own country. 

I'm not saying it will solve everything but just £800 million of that will get us another 20,000 Police Officers (Its calculated at Norfolk levels where they are paid £22,000 a year to start and then training and equipment costs).

I'm not saying cut the budget totally but take half of it! Virtually none of the other countries give that much of their GDP anyway! Here you go....Hmmmmmm who's absent from this list of spending 0.7% of GDP on foreign aid.....could it be those who constantly deride us for leaving their union like, Germany.....France....Italy....Spain.... ?

 

• Sweden – 1.40%
• Norway – 1.05%
• Luxembourg – 0.93%
• Denmark – 0.85%
• Netherlands – 0.76%
• United Kingdom – 0.71%

 

[Gashead1105]

Printing money on the scale that you are suggesting as the solution to Labour's unfunded spending plans, is hyper inflationary and is indeed irresponsible. Cf the weimar Republic, Zimbabwe, Nigeria and a number of other banana republics. There hasn't been any new QE for a number of years now, and the only bank that is being propped up is the basket case known as RBS. And even that is getting there. 

'there's no money left'

If Corbyn gets in on Friday, I've no doubt that my ultimate ultimate boss (one of the so called 1000 families last year at least) will vote with his feet and leave. Taking a large number of Europeans with him and massively scaling down the UK operation. Losing the UK millions of pounds of tax from one organisation alone.  A large number of others will be doing the same. I'm hoping it doesn't happen but the middle east is attractive from a financial perspective at least. Who needs human rights?  Are you a member of momentum? 

[Kimbers]

1.  Sweden – 1.40%
2.  Norway – 1.05%
3.  Luxembourg – 0.93%
4.  Denmark – 0.85%
5.  Netherlands – 0.76%
6.  United Kingdom – 0.71%
7.  Finland – 0.56%
8.   Switzerland – 0.52%
9.  Germany – 0.52%
10.  Belgium – 0.42%
11.  France – 0.37%
12.  Ireland – 0.36%
13.  Austria – 0.32%
14.  Canada – 0.28%
15.  New Zealand – 0.27%
16.  Australia – 0.27%
17.  Iceland – 0.24%
18.  Japan – 0.22%
19.  Italy – 0.21%
20.  United States – 0.17%
21.  Portugal – 0.16%
22.  Slovenia – 0.15%
23.  Greece – 0.14%
24.  South Korea – 0.14%
25.  Spain – 0.13%
26.  Czech Republic – 0.12%
27.  Slovak Republic – 0.10%
28.  Poland – 0.10%

[basalte]

Will  I would not be the one who says that 100 economics professors are wrong and it certainly seems to me that your boss will have made a very poor decision if he decides to move.  

More and more who are following election policies closely ( instead of believing our Prime Minister (bad idea !)  have noticed that a proposed Corporation tax rate of 26% will still be one of the lowest tax rates in Europe.

Just where will your ultimate boss go ? He`ll have a hard time elsewhere in Europe and trading/transport costs from the Middle East will be way more expensive .

If he does move it will be because we will be out of the Single Market-a hard brexit. But that's a whole other argument.

And secondly I am not remotely "suggesting " printing  money on the scale you suggest. I merely point out that it can be used as a mechanism just as ultra low interest rates and printing money was used to keep us afloat since the Crash of 2008. 

Any rise in interest rates will cripple people on big mortgages and the colossal personal debt of UK citizens (the highest in Europe) will lead to misery reminiscent of the ERM days of John "Back to Basics" Major.

Researchers now say that 13 trillion pounds are kept in offshore tax havens.

13 trillion pounds. That is incredible but that`s what they say.

I`ll repeat it actually . 13 trillion pounds.

I am certainly suggesting that we get our hands on some of that rather than have to print money because the people who are always saying how they love this country refuse to shell out for doing business in it.  

 

[Chillidoggy]

Did you forget to mention the IMF bailout?

[basalte]

There is controversy as to whether we actually needed a bailout in retrospect but that aside, the early 1970s saw : 

the oil crisis,

the  3-day week,  

the Miner`s Strike

and the nationalisation of Rolls Royce by that well known Corbyn Supporter Edward Heath.

-the problems had been growing for years !

[pete]

If we are going to get rid of tuition fees we need to ensure that only the best go to university

[C8RKH]

2 hours ago, pete said:

If we are going to get rid of tuition fees we need to ensure that only the best go to university

Best short comment on this thread!

[Dan E]

Pete you are spot on there. Out of all my mates only 2no went to Uni and they were very bright and now very successful. The rest of us went to work! Everyone is comfortable now but to be fair they have all worked bloody hard. One who is now very high up in City Bank started off on a YTS another just got a Queens Award for the fastest growing tech company, another is a painter and decorator! 

 

[Barrykearley]

Universities where on their ass when new labour brought in tuition fees so anyone could attend. A huge injection of cash for utter trash courses where folks would be studying "the plot of Eastenders through the 1980s" as a degree course whilst paying to do so. It was all an utter con back then and still is now.

they are now building student accommodation blocks and cashing in on that cash cow. All while pressuring local councils to block the use of normal town houses as student accommodation - again the system stinks and is corrupt

[Jacques]

Reading all of this discussion tells me, that there is a very strong similarity between all of this happening in the UK and say Denmark, and many other countries, A technocracy financed by private Companies.

Kind regards,

Jacques.

[Chillidoggy]

10 hours ago, pete said:

If we are going to get rid of tuition fees we need to ensure that only the best go to university

If we're going to get rid of tuition fees, we also need to have a major cull of worthless degrees so those of us like me who are going to have to pay for Corbyn's grand project don't end up paying for garbage. Why should we pay for anyone to study 'the plot of EastEnders through the 80's' when it clearly has no benefit to the prosperity of the UK whatsoever?

Ridiculous.

[C8RKH]

The real scandal is this:

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/feb/23/university-vice-chancellors-average-pay-now-exceeds-275000

 

Average pay for a Vice Chancellor of £275k. WTF?  Thanks labour....

[Chillidoggy]

In my experience, the majority of professors are only at the university to further their own research, teaching appears to be a minor concern. One course my son looked at had something like a paltry 6 hours of tuition a week, the rest was 'down to you'. The first question appeared to be whether enough dosh was available from his parents for the course fees and accommodation. Oh, and the uni car park is peppered with Astons and Porkers.

Again, apprenticeships are a far better proposition. Sadly, the red tape that binds them precludes small operations from taking on apprentices. A one-man business is unlikely to have the time to deal with all the bum-fodder and bureaucracy.

Edited June 7, 2017 by ian29gte

[Barrykearley]

48 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

The real scandal is this:

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/feb/23/university-vice-chancellors-average-pay-now-exceeds-275000

 

Average pay for a Vice Chancellor of £275k. WTF?  Thanks labour....

Make sure you don't forget to thank them for the PFI agreements in hospitals