New 410 musings - Ex Cayman

[ramjet]

 

[jonnyboy]

Well time has marched on. Still only up to 2500 miles in the car. Although it's my daily driver I don't live far from work so try to avoid short commute journeys  I really need to try to organise a proper trip in it to get the miles up. One trip that is looming is it's planned trip back to the factory for it's new roof panel that will be mid October. I'll be without it (again) for about 5-6 weeks by which time we will be into the winter so thoughts are turning towards what to do over the cold bit of the year. Sometimes I buy a winter car (have had a couple of E46 M3s and a Z4M Coupe) Something slidey with heated seats and LSD. This winter I will probably stick to the van and depending what sort of winter we get the 410 may see some action. I don't want it out in the salt and as we know the cup tyres are noticeably out of range at even 8/9 degrees. Can I be arsed having a second set of wheels and tyres? I think I will see how the weather is. A mild wet winter will probably see a set of something wrapped in a decent winter or all season tyre. 

Another decision has been made. I need to get some more miles on it first but I'm going to go for the Komotec 460 AND the lower Final drive. I think we established that 84 or 85 MPH was top of 2nd. It's too high. It's a glorious thing to grab by the scruff and wring out but lollpoing round in 3rd all day is no good. I think with the combination of the lower gearing and additional power it should turn the car into a proper supercar. If anyone has any feedback on the 460 I'd be really interested to hear it. I can't find anyone that's had the final drive done which is a real surprise given its probably the most cost effective mod that an be done on this platform. Still probably 4k fitted which is a lot for a threaded bar swapping in your gearbox but hey ho! it must on it's own be at least as effective as the 460 kit. 

 

 

[tim_marra]

Hey fella, maybe you should learn to drive the car to your/it's limits rather than try to overcome its perceived shortcomings from the comfort of your armchair and some biased car mag reviews?

[Champale]

jonnyboy - I agree 100% about the gearing being too tall on the Evoras and also haven't been able to find anyone who has actually done a ratio change.  100mph is only 3500rpm on my 400, which means it's geared to do over 200mph!  Dumb. 

I encourage you to do the ratio change so that you can tell me all about the pros and cons of it!  Hah seriously though I would love to get some real information about the swap.   

[Bruss]

Gearing too tall?

For what? A GT car or a track car?

I may be interested in the result of the first one fitted. On track wringing everything out then I can see the advantage, if the gear change could be quicker to make use of that advantage. On the road journeys I make the GT feel is pretty much perfect.

[blindside]

12 hours ago, jonnyboy said:

If anyone has any feedback on the 460 I'd be really interested to hear it. I can't find anyone that's had the final drive done which is a real surprise given its probably the most cost effective mod that an be done on this platform. Still probably 4k fitted which is a lot for a threaded bar swapping in your gearbox but hey ho! it must on it's own be at least as effective as the 460 kit. 

Also interested in the power upgrade, just a little more puff mid range would make all the difference. Although on the tall side I find the 410 gear ratios to be OK for fast roads. Just need to consciously go down a gear to keep the rev range right for the car. 

After the 70th Anniversary weekend I’ll be putting the Lotus to bed and dragging the Scoob out to drive over the winter. Nothing like adjustable 4WD with loads of torque (& Goodyear Eagle F1s) on wet & slippery B roads. 😋

[jonnyboy]

On 26/09/2018 at 22:31, tim_marra said:

Hey fella, maybe you should learn to drive the car to your/it's limits rather than try to overcome its perceived shortcomings from the comfort of your armchair and some biased car mag reviews?

Erm gearing has nothing to do with the cars limits? It does 85 in second...what are the other gears for?  The idea here is be able to access the power more. It's a disease of modern cars and Porsche have the same issue geared for pub ammo top speed figures that nobody will ever access. Having a snappier more accessible power band will release its potential on road or track. 

[tim_marra]

Did you change your Pork recipe, or just enjoy the hype? Personally I don't think the Lotus ratio's are lacking, but then again we are all different 

[jonnyboy]

No idea what you are on about Tim sorry! 

[NW76]

Ratios are too long for me as well even in the Exige, 5th and 6th are espec long ... will do short ratios also when my gearbox is due ... have a feeling it might be next year ... its holding up pretty well so far after two years of EX460  ... the gearbox cooler works wonders ...

[tim_marra]

3 hours ago, jonnyboy said:

No idea what you are on about Tim sorry! 

I thought you were an ex Porsche owner? Porsche are well known for very tall ratio's, so my comment about changing the recipe was reference to those ratios. Hence the culinary analogy with Pork.

Never mind, you have a lovely car which I hope you enjoy. Eventually  

[pete757]

I agree with Tim.

I think the gearing of the newer 'close ratio' gearboxes from the later S1's onwards is just perfect.

Second gear to circa 80 mph is super IMHO, it allows access to the top of the power/torque band which is great for overtaking and wringing it out on twisty back roads between say 45 and 80 mph. I would find it a total PITA if I was constantly having to change between 2nd and 3rd gears if the final drive was different. 

But we are all different. 🤣

[jonnyboy]

We yeah I guess if you only want to access the top of the powerband of the car in two out of 6 gears. Ultimately it's lumbered with a gearset that doesn't belong to the car so if there's an option to tailor it and make it more for it's intended purpose  it's worth a look. Like Lotus did with the S1? 

Regarding the Porsche Tim I had a PDK which has shorter gearing than the manual cars and hence a better access to the available power more of the time. The Porsche is punchier the midrange vs the 4xx seems to save it all until the last 1000 RPM which is a little odd given it should be linear on the supercharger. The Komotec graphs look good and it seems decent value for the power increase so kind of rude not to. Regarding hype then the Porsche owners do suffer from the "need" for a manual. In P cars the manual shift is actually pretty poor in how it feels in addition to having too long ratios so the PDK is faster and more enjoyable to drive but the blinker brigade would never admit to it. I've owned and driven manual and PDK P cars so it's all personal experience and given that motoring jurnos can be very wrong about cars (Cayman R one of the worst cars I have owned...hype!) I just make up my own mind. Fortunately I do get to spend more quality time than most in a variety of cars as we sometimes have stuff pass through the business and I occasionally get to look after nice cars for friends. I'm just waiting for a GT4 to come in which should be interesting. 

[EGTE]

Don't ever remember a Porker with a "poor"-feeling manual box.

[tim_marra]

Is the manual in the 410 different to the earlier S?

[Bravo73]

No. The ratios in the 4X0 cars are the same as the CR/S ‘box. 

[DBG]

I agree. It's not the end of the world, but I'd be happy if second and third were a little shorter.

[pete757]

5 hours ago, jonnyboy said:

We yeah I guess if you only want to access the top of the powerband of the car in two out of 6 gears. Ultimately it's lumbered with a gearset that doesn't belong to the car so if there's an option to tailor it and make it more for it's intended purpose  it's worth a look. Like Lotus did with the S1? 

If you could manage this then, I am interested in how would you spread the 6 gears speed wise...?

[DJW]

Shorter ratios are good and well when trailering a car to track, but you”ll soon get fed up of higher revs on motorway journeys , especially to those European tracks 

[jonnyboy]

Details on the Komotec FD are here https://komo-tec.com/Shop/en/Exige/MK3-Toyota-V6-350-380/Gearbox/Close-ratio-final-drive-Exige-S-V6-Evora.html

Top of second is 68mph against 85. 80mph cruise is up 500 rpm to 3000 in 6th which is 2500 at the moment so not that much difference. The ultra close ratio would I guess be a track only thing. It's broadly in line with the 2ZZ cars but you get the benefit of a proper 6th (6th in the 2zz cars only drops the rpm by 250 at 70mph!) 

[electro_boy]

Assuming my S1 Evora with close ratio gearbox has similar ratios to the 400 then I’d say it’s a pretty good compromise for a road car.  

Getting a good 6th gear motorway cruising rpm puts a limitation on what you can use.  So I think Lotus have got the balence about right. 

[Champale]

I find that I rarely even use 6th gear unless I am doing 85+mph.  Since the 400 is supposed to top out at 186mph and the 410 at 190mph, I think picking a final drive ratio that gets you to that top speed right at the 7k rpm redline makes sense, instead of having the car geared to do a theoretical top speed over over 200mph that it doesn't have enough power to actually achieve.  On the 400 and us, that would mean approximately a 7% reduction in FD ratio, which at cruising speeds would mean a rise of only a couple of hundred rpm in top gear. 

As someone who has owned a bunch of sportbikes that came with sky-high gearing (I am looking at you, Ducati),  reducing the final drive ratio 7% makes a vehicle so much livelier and easier to use (it's a simple sprocket change on a bike).   I also have owned a number of Mitsubishi Evos (which have short rally-style gearing) and it is so much fun to be able to run up through the gears bop bop bop instead of waiting waiting waiting to shift like the Evora.

Go for it, johnnyboy!         

Edited September 29, 2018 by Champale

[mik]

Box on the 400/410 is the same as the series 1 Close ratio box as i understand it?

Which means vmax 75mph in 2nd, and 102mph in 3rd.

Where did the 85mph figure come from? I am confused.

[pete757]

Depends on the RPM limit I believe... some go to 7,200 in 'sport' mode. Others 6,700...

[mik]

Gearing in 2nd is about 10.7mph/1000rpm.

6700rpm would be about 72mph.

7200 rpm would be about 77mph.

You'd need to be pulling 8000rpm to do 85mph in 2nd. Unless the 410 has a different gearbox - but i dont think it does.