Brexit

[Bling]

I took those two photos on Monday evening in my local Sainsburys

 

[C8RKH]

I'm so sorry @Bling that that was the best response you could come up with.  It's not worth continuing the debate to be honest if that is the quality of a fact based response.

Have fun.

[Bling]

Agreed. If facts from people in the industry and photos do not fit with your view of the world, so be it. I'm out 👍

[PaulCP]

There’s always been some empty shelves in our local Sainsburys in an evening waiting to be restocked.

Well, I guess we should believe this attempt of convincing the public of shortages that the Daily Mirror tried earlier in the week 😂

At least you showed a wider area

 

[C8RKH]

26 minutes ago, Bling said:

Agreed. If facts from people in the industry and photos do not fit with your view of the world, so be it. I'm out 👍

To be honest, if you call that industry insight and facts, you deserve to be out

[Chillidoggy]

48 minutes ago, Bling said:

I took those two photos on Monday evening in my local Sainsburys

 

 

I had you marked as a Waitrose man.

[Bling]

I am not that fussed on Supermarket Ian although I was not too happy on Monday to find the shelves empty. Meat and water seemed to be the main shortages along with other shelves but I didn't look to see what was meant to be on those.

Apparently milk is having to be destroyed now due to the driver shortage. They are also forecasting risks to the electricity supply this winter. Something else to look forward to.

[pete]

Sorry but I lost interest when you compared us to the Eastern bloc of the seventies. Having been to the Eastern bloc in the early seventies I can tell you the it is nothing like that here and never will be. 

[C8RKH]

Farmers have been pouring milk down the drain for the past 20 years due to the EU and also the pricing and supplier strategies of the supermarket. Nothing new here to be honest.

What's your point re Electricity Supply issues this winter? It's a statement, but what is the purpose? Is it to support the fact the UK is becoming the new Eastern Europe of the 70's? To support your view that Brexit is to blame?

[Doug Ashley]

18 hours ago, C8RKH said:

They wouldn't care as long as they get paid. Come on now.....

Change hurts, and Brexit was a big change for everyone. It takes time. Not saying that as an excuse. It's just  fact. The EU did not exactly make this easy, they could have been a bit more reasonable, that would have benefitted everyone. But hey ho.

These are the same drivers you said were being exploited by poor pay & conditions?  The workers came here if it was a good deal for them.  They had a whole continent and us to choose from.  If the aim was to improve conditions/pay for all workers, Brexit was a drastic way to go about this. E.g. drivers were always considered a key part of the economy in France, & the road tolls there pay for decent facilities which wouldn't otherwise be viable for private companies to run.  Here; run down bolt-ons to service stations with little investment for decades.

The second part of your comment gets to the nub of things.  If Brexit was the solution, the way it has been done is reckless & irresponsible.  There is evidence of pretty much everything in the 'yellowhammer' no deal Brexit report now happening.  The main impact is on the low paid, for whom inflation hits a far greater proportion of income in terms of the cost of living.

Being a self-sufficient country is a noble aim, but a long-term fantasy at best.  We produce only 60% or thereabouts of the food & energy we need.  We haven't invested in skills/training to fill the gap in the workforce.  We will get there if we have to, but it will take years of disruption.  

The government's solution? Whip the rug from under everyone & see what happens.  Far better to have invested in the infrastructure & skills we need first, in my opinion.

[Doug Ashley]

However it's difficult to know what to believe, this was my local Tesco last week.

[C8RKH]

8 minutes ago, Doug Ashley said:

These are the same drivers you said were being exploited by poor pay & conditions?

Apologies, you missed my point so I should have made it clearer. My response was to say that IF the pay and conditions were better here, than in the EU, then they would come - money talks. I was in NO WAY defending people being exploited with low pay and poor conditions. I do not support that at all.

All the points you raise above Doug are generational issues that have been around for 20-30 years. That have not been tackled by any government, regardless of colour, etc. My gripe, is that people like you seem to present it as a problem that is NOW - i.e. created by the government or by Brexit.  That's just a painfully dishonest presentation of the issues and their cause.  Remember, some of the "food" issues and the decline in fishing over generations, are as a direct result of EU policies that we adopted, as it is largely what we do, versus many in Europe just ignoring it.

I don't disagree with you or the Porsche fella in terms of things being fundamentally wrong and needing to be fixed. I just disagree with the constant link to Brexit as being the bearer of all things evil when in fact, these issues and problems have been systemic for 20 years or more, and not addressed by successive governments and parties, none of which today, have any real scooby or answer to these systemic problems. Just blaming it on Brexit as the cause is, in my humble opinion, lazy!  Yes, Brexit may have been the tipping point, but the issues are far more deep rooted than that.

[oneshot]

The electricity supply problem is nothing to do with Brexit - there was a fire in the termination building of one of the France-UK undersea cables which knocked it out of action. Currently still not fully functional and hence there is reduced power coming in from France.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/incidents

[PaulCP]

When it suits the media everything negative os Brexit orientated, even if it’s not true.

I am sure there are more scaremongering stories to be written yet with sensational if not over exaggerated headlines.
Do these “reporters” (I avoid the word journalist so as not to do disservice to the few real ones) now get paid bonuses on the numbers who fall for their click bait.😠

[Barrykearley]

Reporters making a mountain out of a molehill.

Anyway - so what if there’s a food shortage - most of the uk are obese anyway. Might stop folks chucking so much food down their necks or in the bin.

one things for sure - it’ll be fine round here - milk on tap at the farm over the road and as much PYO lambs and rabbits as you can eat.

bring on the power cuts 👍

[C8RKH]

Wow, shop shelves in France empty too? Supply chains in tatters.  Oh well, at least that is something else that Macron and his English Remain chums can blame on Brexit! 

https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Shortages-of-goods-in-France-What-is-expected-in-the-months-to-come

[PaulCP]

My word, Brexit really is far reaching!

https://news.sky.com/story/it-isnt-just-the-uk-thats-suffering-supply-chain-issues-in-the-us-the-crisis-may-last-until-the-summer-12435300

[C8RKH]

Around 2 weeks ago several on here were getting very aeriated / hot under the collar about how Brexit was to blame for the fuel shortages and just about everything else under the sun.

Well, you've been very quiet since the fuel shortage seemed to have "fixed itself" (or rather, people stopped being pricks panic buying and the media moved on to create issues somewhere else).

I don't recall seeing anything about tens, let alone, hundreds or thousands, of HGV drivers swarming in from the Continent to drive to our rescue.  I don't believe we've suddenly seen thousands, let alone tens of thousands, of more HGV drivers being given their licences to alleviate the issues.  So, I'd be really interested in  your wisdom and views as to what, other than pricks stopping panic buying and the media stoking hysteria, is responsible for the sudden glut of fuel at petrol stations that has alleviated the end of the world, Brexit induced, shortages in fuel?

I encourage you to go back and look at your comments and provide us an update, especially in the light of the current empty shelves and shortages that are being reported on the Continent, in places like France et al. I suppose that is all down to Brexit too is it?

I don't want to come across as a smug bar steward with the above, I'm not trying to be one. But, I AM, really interested in your responses given the zeal with which you predicted the end of the world 2/3 weeks ago and the fact that it is just non news now. Brexit hasn't suddenly gone away, so why have the issues? Or is this just a "blip"?

Thanks in advance.

 

[basalte]

I agree C8RKH , your somewhat "throwing down of the gauntlet"  - toned query on behalf of the UK`s "third nation" status does warrant a response despite many possibly being rather tired of the whole topic . But it remains an important topic for all that.

Any response inevitably falls between two stools. Quoting chapter and verse from sources that support your opinion is extremely easy these days . Much too easy ! And just saying "but it IS Brexit" is even more unsatisfactory.

I certainly agree with you from 7th Oct that people may be "grossly simplifying what is actually a very complex situation". And as you quite rightly point out, the fuel shortages are regional. To quote Brian Madderson Chairman of the Petrol Retailers Association 12th Oct (Evening Standard) regarding London :-

"A large majority of retailers continue to express concerns that they have no forward visibility of their next deliveries. There are reports of wet sites going dry because the continuity of tankers sending out of kilter with orders . The situation in London and the South East remains serious. ...there had been a welcome improvement in the region over the weekend with 10% of non motorway sites running out of fuel which was not far behind the rest of the country. The survey was based on a quarter of petrol stations".

Admittedly that was 9 days ago. I think you live in Scotland (?-apologies if you don`t) where demand must be lower given population densities. There are still shortages down here in my recent experience. But in any event your argument is that Brexit isn`t to blame anyway.

More to the point I`ve just spent way too long scrolling back through the posts including my own , to find out who is blaming Brexit "for everything under the sun" and I confess to having a hard time finding a culprit for that.

My own relevant comment Oct 4th  ? "ending freedom of movement tipped a difficult situation into a crisis" .

Oct 5th ? : "I already stated that Brexit was hardly the only factor"  

Doug Ashley ? : "Brexit is a major factor in the driver shortage".

(That`s probably as "blaming everything under the sun " as it gets.)

Bling ? He has referred to situations which you and others call for further evidence of . European commentators do not accept that the shortages Europe faces are anything like the UK ones. But I get the feeling you still won`t accept that.

I note Government attempts to remove competition rules from suppliers in order to coordinate supplies and also the use of troops . I would have thought that these exceptional measures have helped to alleviate shortages of fuel supplies.

As for "panic buying" , I return to my "man bites dog" thesis - yes some reckless ignorants filled water bottles , there were some fights-but most people actually need petrol (more than toilet roll even)and are genuinely stuffed if they run out. So they did flock to pumps for a period. Yes , it`s a factor. Maybe a major one ? 

There has been much citing of statistics in above posts and I would not wish to glibly dismiss them. But the statistics are a snapshot of a developing situation. Import levels ,  Increases in demand, conditions for HGV drivers , low wages (suddenly the Government cares about low wages - and if you believe THAT one...) .  

So, from a perusal of the posts so far I just don`t think anyone is saying Brexit is totally to blame. I think you are over-egging the pudding and (as we have seen time and time and time again over the past 6 years, caricaturing your opponents` arguments where there is no easy answer and the answer may change with the circumstances-is always a temptation. 

Leaving your nearest and largest trading bloc without a deal for so much as  a Customs Union, has its downsides, which certainly appear from this thread to include a continuing burning animosity towards said trading bloc despite our having left it , not the other way round-an important basic distinction to be made when apportioning blame.

I will end on a note of bombast; any citation of the "Daily Express" in relation to Brexit will automatically get a "nul points" from me. My own " Brexit Means Brexit Backstop  Red Line "I suppose.

 

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, basalte said:

despite many possibly being rather tired of the whole topic

That's why it has it's own thread so those that are tired of don't have to be a part of it. TLF is very accommodating in that respect. 

It's a bit like the BBC, if you're tired of it then switch the channel.

[basalte]

Well, some topics (not necessarily this) are very like the BBC, it`s what is not reported / griped about that starts telling you more than what is !

[C8RKH]

A great post @basalte and some good points made. I agree with you re "am over egging the pudding". I think my posts would not leave anyone in any doubt about that. Guilty as charged m'Lord.

In my defense, that over egging is a direct response, maybe a crass one, to what I see as a continual over egging of everything being caused by Brexit.  It seems that you can easily get away with blaming stuff on Brexit as somehow, some of the people who do it, believe that it shows they are of a superior intellect, to those who voted Brexit and therefore they are not worthy/able of challenge.  I am not accusing you of being this, just making a general statement about those who believe it is legitimate to just constantly throw the shit at Brexit.

I'm not stupid enough to think that Brexit has not caused issues, nor that it will not cause additional issues in the future. But then I'm not stupid enough to think that being a part of the EU had not caused us issues and would not have continued to cause issues in the future. 

All is not rosy in the EU right now. There is discontent with the EU machine in France, Poland, Hungary, Germany and Italy. We were not alone in our thinking that all was not good.

Only time will tell if the UK was "smart" to get out before the collapse, or dumb to get out of what develops and grows into a success. I don't think any of us can predict the future, and hence why I get prodded by people who smugly pronounce, so soon after the event, that it is all pre-ordained as a massive failure! It will be some time before we know for sure.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

We also had a fuel shortage thread….

[Doug Ashley]

On 20/10/2021 at 14:52, C8RKH said:

A great post @basalte and some good points made. I agree with you re "am over egging the pudding". I think my posts would not leave anyone in any doubt about that. Guilty as charged m'Lord.

In my defense, that over egging is a direct response, maybe a crass one, to what I see as a continual over egging of everything being caused by Brexit.  It seems that you can easily get away with blaming stuff on Brexit as somehow, some of the people who do it, believe that it shows they are of a superior intellect, to those who voted Brexit and therefore they are not worthy/able of challenge.  I am not accusing you of being this, just making a general statement about those who believe it is legitimate to just constantly throw the shit at Brexit.

Great posts from @basalte and @C8RKH.  I've gone a bit quiet due to an insane workload the last month (partially caused by Brexit, ironically..).

My posts are generally coming from a similar place to yours @C8RKH, as I will demonstrate:

"It seems that you can easily get away with blaming stuff on the EU as somehow, some of the people who do it, believe that it shows they are of a superior patriotism, to those who voted remain and therefore they are not worthy/able of challenge.  I am not accusing you of being this, just making a general statement about those who believe it is legitimate to just constantly throw the shit at the EU."

I'm just trying to offset what I see as a huge bias in the way our relationship with the EU has been communicated to the public over decades.  In time I expect a closer relationship with Europe will emerge, but there is a lot of poison to suck out first.

The greater & more immediate concern I have is what else the Vote Leave crew are now getting up to in Downing Street, with zero accountability. 

 

[Chillidoggy]

3 hours ago, Doug Ashley said:

 

The greater & more immediate concern I have is what else the Vote Leave crew are now getting up to in Downing Street, with zero accountability. 

 

 Yes, but we do at least have the opportunity to vote them out every five years. Unlike the unelected EU mandarins.