Brexit

[C8RKH]

41 minutes ago, Chillidoggy said:

£550 and only tea and coffee?

This is in itself rant-worthy.

It's that damned Brexit mate. My costs have gone through the roof................

[100th_Idiot]

10 hours ago, CHANGES said:

It is all very corrupt.  The people voted, the politicians voted, a law was passed, all to leave the EU..  ... All along a self serving group who did not agree with the democratic vote , who also happen to hold positions of influence , have done everything short of a treasonable act to overturn , discredit or sabotage the referendum result with lies , scare stories , false news and innuendo..  ..   And so it goes on...     

The real truth about the whole situation is , we must leave .... that is what the vote said... Whether you voted for or against is irrelevant ... We as a people  have always excepted a parliamentary election result , even when its a minority... You could always argue in these results more individual votes were cast for the party that technically lost the election , which has happened on many occasions..    In this referendum no such argument can be had, it could not have been more straight forward than one person one vote ... IN or OUT..   So why is it be disputed and why so difficult....?

Well the EU  along with the influential few don't want us to leave...  So the deal they have put on the table is unreasonable ... In fact it is worse than staying in..   They have said this deal if non negotiable ....  The only way out of that is no deal exit...  But the influential few managed to take the NO Deal option off the table ...    STALEMATE....    

But we still have to satisfy the electorate or we will loose democracy...  Notice I wrote SATISFY , not CON the electorate.. That is what it is coming to ... The EU and  Remoaners are slowly being exposed for the evil, selfish, self serving manipulators they are . All they have and will achieve is disruption and distrust in the oldest democratic system..  Maybe that is their plan , I say this as the EU does not have publicly elected leaders , therefore dictates policy and law, whilst pretending to be democratic.. 

The UK was and always has been an independent force in the EU .  Not that it has done us much good or given us the benefits other nation states have received..    It has seemed for a long time , especially since members from the Eastern block have swelled the numbers, even though they did not meet the strict criteria of EU membership,  that the focus was on a federal socialist EU with free movement. ...    I believe the UK voters were far more aware of this than the politicians realised  and it played a far bigger part in the OUT vote than the other areas being hotly disputed..  .. 

I don't think anyone in the UK is anti Europe , we just don't want to be told by the EU what we can and can't do etc. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors about any deal ..  The truth is the EU will only put a deal out that is good for them ... So the argument and discussion should be about the EU being awkward and blocking any reasonable deal we put on the table..    Net result is we leave without one big deal..  A no deal Brexit..    We can go on WTO , get a great trade deal with the USA , set no tariffs with the EU,  then watch the EU come to us for deals to keep their trading relations alive with the UK before the rest of the world starts to supply what they have cheaper....     Or with the lifting of EU restriction , heaven forbid we start manufacturing and growing produce instead of buying it from the EU.     Problem with all that is , it will cause lower unemployment, greater prosperity and a more versatile economy ....  Not sure some people would be happy with that, !!!!!     

Rant over.... 

The EU were always going to negotiate in their interest and make it very difficult for the UK to make an example to others. That was obvious before the referendum.

On WTO tariffs if we set zero for the EU we have to set zero for everyone. You cannot discriminate. So zero for the EU also means zero for the U.S. and zero for China.

[C8RKH]

13 minutes ago, 100th_Idiot said:

On WTO tariffs if we set zero for the EU we have to set zero for everyone. You cannot discriminate. So zero for the EU also means zero for the U.S. and zero for China

So we set it at zero and wow, free global trade?  That's a novel idea.  So our imports get cheaper, the EU countries who export to us will get f@cked, and our exporters get to compete whilst being supported by our Government to improve productivity and costs.

Ok. I'm in, where do I put my X? Or should I just right it on bog paper and flush it away for all the use that vote will be?

[Andyww]

Import tariffs for a no-deal situation have already been set and published. There isnt much to gain from having zero on everything. For example many farmers would go bankrupt.

Tariffs already set include cars but not car parts which makes sense.

The thing about no-deal is a lot of people in the public and private sectors have been beavering away (and spending quite a bit of money) preparing for it. It's quite well planned-for now. So why dont we just get on with it?

 

[Neal H]

40 minutes ago, 100th_Idiot said:

The EU were always going to negotiate in their interest and make it very difficult for the UK to make an example to others. That was obvious before the referendum.

On WTO tariffs if we set zero for the EU we have to set zero for everyone. You cannot discriminate. So zero for the EU also means zero for the U.S. and zero for China.

I don’t understand this. If this is true, what’s the point in states agreeing trade deals with one another? By this reasoning If you agree tariffs with one state then you agree tariffs with the whole world? Or do you just decide that you’re not going to trade under WTO rules, you’re going to set your own?

[100th_Idiot]

19 minutes ago, Neal H said:

I don’t understand this. If this is true, what’s the point in states agreeing trade deals with one another? By this reasoning If you agree tariffs with one state then you agree tariffs with the whole world? Or do you just decide that you’re not going to trade under WTO rules, you’re going to set your own?

Your tariffs under WTO must be the same for everyone with which you trade under WTO rules. Since we don't have a trade deal with either the U.S. or China at the moment WTO tariffs would apply.

50 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

So we set it at zero and wow, free global trade?  That's a novel idea.  So our imports get cheaper, the EU countries who export to us will get f@cked, and our exporters get to compete whilst being supported by our Government to improve productivity and costs.

Ok. I'm in, where do I put my X? Or should I just right it on bog paper and flush it away for all the use that vote will be?

We can only set import tarrifs. No obligation for countries to reciprocate so our exports would be unchanged

[Barrykearley]

I thought the bbc have been clear about this - the world is going to end 

[Steve V8]

1 hour ago, 100th_Idiot said:

We can only set import tarrifs. No obligation for countries to reciprocate so our exports would be unchanged

My understanding of WTO rules (Which already apply to our current trading terms with non EU countries under EU rules), is,  we trade under WTO rules with the option of free trade with whomsoever we wish (our preferred trading Partners). 

Meanwhile whilst our naive politicians have been fannying around, the unelected heads of the dictatorship have been feverishly beavering away to undermine our advantageous position by suddenly backtracking on its own policies and recently just agreed preferred partner free trade arrangements with Singapore and Japan under WTO for fear of the UK leaving and beating them to it unilaterally. 

The EU knows full well that under a hard brexit scenario it would be financially suicidal for them to fail to agree to a free trade deal with the UK, they may chose that course of action to show solidarity, in which case a very nice tariff percentage of the huge trade deficit would end up in the HMRC coffers.

[100th_Idiot]

8 hours ago, Steve V8 said:

My understanding of WTO rules (Which already apply to our current trading terms with non EU countries under EU rules), is,  we trade under WTO rules with the option of free trade with whomsoever we wish (our preferred trading Partners). 

Meanwhile whilst our naive politicians have been fannying around, the unelected heads of the dictatorship have been feverishly beavering away to undermine our advantageous position by suddenly backtracking on its own policies and recently just agreed preferred partner free trade arrangements with Singapore and Japan under WTO for fear of the UK leaving and beating them to it unilaterally. 

The EU knows full well that under a hard brexit scenario it would be financially suicidal for them to fail to agree to a free trade deal with the UK, they may chose that course of action to show solidarity, in which case a very nice tariff percentage of the huge trade deficit would end up in the HMRC coffers.

I don't think Japan and Singapore deals are under WTO. They are separate trade deals. There are 168 I think signatories to WTO and under that you cannot differentiate import tariffs between countries.

You are free under WTO to negotiate independent trade deals but we all know that can take several years. 

[Steve V8]

4 hours ago, 100th_Idiot said:

I don't think Japan and Singapore deals are under WTO.

My point exactly...Japan Singapore and all EU block countries are signed up to WTO, yet deals have been negotiated, the UK is currently unable to negotiate any trade deals off its own back, we are tied to the EU and cannot negociate unilaterally UNLESS WE LEAVE WITHOUT A DEAL.

 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Apparently we've already agreed trade deals with 12 regions, the latest being South Korea as announced only yesterday. So much for everyone saying we're not allowed to...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48577667

 

[100th_Idiot]

1 hour ago, Steve V8 said:

My point exactly...Japan Singapore and all EU block countries are signed up to WTO, yet deals have been negotiated, the UK is currently unable to negotiate any trade deals off its own back, we are tied to the EU and cannot negociate unilaterally UNLESS WE LEAVE WITHOUT A DEAL.

 

Sort of. I think we are having discussions but formally we are not allowed to negotiate or sign a deal until we leave the EU. 

Depending on the deal we leave with we may or may not be able to negotiate independent trade arrangements. Depends what the dela is.

[Steve V8]

Which is why we should leave without a deal.

[Andyww]

The countries such as S Korea have very sensibly rubber-stamped an agreement whereby the existing EU trade agreement is extended to us when we leave. 

Its really only the EU itself which is being awkward about all of this. After we leave with no deal the EU countries will have to fall into line with this also.

[Gashead1105]

19 hours ago, 100th_Idiot said:

The EU were always going to negotiate in their interest and make it very difficult for the UK to make an example to others. That was obvious before the referendum.

 

True.

I voted leave, and I'd do it again because I don't believe in the United States of Europe or the EU Army, or that Donald Tusk, Nige and the rest of the EU grey men should have unrestricted access to an unlimited trough of gravy. 

However....... (a) I don't think it's going to happen now and (b) I'm not entirely sure I actually want it to.

There are at least two great things that being in the EU protects us from:

(a) a flood of cheap, chlorine washed and/or pumped full of antibiotics, meat together with a raft of GM food that we can guarantee will be foisted on us under any US trade deal, which EU standards do not allow; and more importantly

(b) Prime Minister Jezza nationalising the fuck out of everything under the sun, due to the EU's rules on State Aid. Without the EU framework, Jezza has the unrestricted ability to create his communist utopia of Venezuela-sur-la-manche. The Labour Communist Party are a bigger threat to the safety, security and prosperity of this country than Brexit. I firmly believe that. If the choice is to remain in the EU, or suffer the champagne socialist and protest vote leaving us with PM Jez and the consequential punitive income and property taxes, flights of capital and general communist politics of envy, I choose the EU every single time. Given the shambolic state of the Conservative party, and the likely (highly polarising) outcome of Boris as Mother T's successor, I can't help feeling that PM Jez is a real risk. If for the next election (which could be in a matter of weeks folks!) we have a choice of PM Boris or PM Jezza, lord only knows where we'll end up. Perhaps begging the EU to save us from the red terror... At least China owns a lot of the UK's debt, and under a communist PM would no doubt waive whatever he asks them to. 

I remain(!) hopeful that the Conservative Party will prevent this disaster from happening. I am not a member but personally I like Gove. He gets things done. God forbid we end up with PM Boris being prevented by parliament from a hard Brexit/no confidence vote => general election => ............ 

If someone on the remain side had campaigned on what the EU actually does for us, rather than just saying "vote for the status quo", I'm not sure we'd be in this mess.

[CHANGES]

The mass confusion from innuendo , false news and scare stories etc, is the tool of the EU to unsettle and destabilise  British politics.  Its working ever so well.... because the media machine backed by the EU keeps fueling it... aaaaand people believe everything the hear/read... 

I read and are dismayed by the headlines regarding a No Deal Brexit PM being appointed then sabotaged by a parliamentary vote of no confidence , forcing a general election..     They will do this to stop a No Deal Brexit,  but these same numpties voted against the EU deal TM negotiated .  This is the only deal the EU was offering, NONE Negotiable....    Do these self righteous twits think that is going to change with just a new face in front of them ....... Dream on , the EU have all the cards why should they change their position..    BUT  ...  If a no deal is back on the table with a PM and goverment to back it , the EU will start to twitch... Then if we make it clear we are quite prepared to leave with a NO Deal  as the inconvenience and upheaval is no worse than what the EU are offering, then the tables are turned..     Rest assured the EU will take it to the wire, they always do, so we will need a PM with a strong resolve to be prepared to stand by the convictions and leave with a NO Deal if needs be..

The only thing that is obvious to all is if a General Election is forced on us, then we are even deeper in the do do than before..   The Brexit situation will not have changed at all  and our position in the EU weaker than ever from all points, with one possible and unlikely scenario.... The Brexit party...    The Brexit party is a very under estimated element in all this, but has and is gaining more and more support from the people..  Lets face it , the people are the ones that vote..   Oh sorry i forgot , we did on the 23rd of june 2016..  But when that did not come out as the influential few expected look what happened.. It would be interesting to see response if Brexit Party became a political player and could influence policy..   They were very quickly dismissed by the media after the EU elections.   However lets not forget , these devious underhand manipulators are very aware of the truth , They do understand the Brexit Party has a strong and growing following , should they get enough suitable people to stand as MP's along with a credible manifesto , they could be in with a shout.    So be prepared for an instant vote of no confidence by parliament to be implemented the moment a new PM is appointed , (if a no deal supporter).   This will be the only way they could minimise the Brexit Party threat, by not allowing it enough time to get fully organised..

So when you way up all the facts,  what a bloody mess we are in . A self induced mess from our own democratically elected representatives who are supposed to uphold the will of the people.   Conspiracy theorist can have a field day with all this .  What is and has been going on behind closed doors is defiantly detrimental to the peoples wishes.. 

@C8RKH  Threw dolly out with teddy , and the £550 in the post in case Rant not up to spec' .....        

   

[Kimbers]

17 hours ago, Gashead1105 said:

I remain(!) hopeful that the Conservative Party will prevent this disaster from happening. I am not a member but personally I like Gove. He gets things done. God forbid we end up with PM Boris being prevented by parliament from a hard Brexit/no confidence vote => general election => ............ 

I think that's the way its going. I am 90% sure a hard line Brexiteer will be next PM, especially now Labour are setting their stall out for a second vote or no leave. The only route the Tories can go down is the leave party. However, what I think will happen is this:

Conservatives become Leave party of choice after getting a leave Leader
Parliament refuse Leave/no deal and vote to stop it
Huge backlash and General Election called
Brexit party get a large majority as they will then be the only leave party because everyone will be disillusioned with a hung parliament and Tories inability to achieve result of referendum
(Lets not forget 32% of the population is normally a Majority and potentially Brexit Party could get near 50%)
Brexit party Majority vote leave no deal. Job gets done anyway.

 

[Gashead1105]

@Kimbers don't agree with you, the Brexit Party => split vote => PM Jez. As per Peterborough. There's no way they get a majority, they have no other policies.  I suppose the one good thing about PM Boris is that Farage dies in a ditch politically, he can go back to the Brussels trough 

[Kimbers]

I disagree. If the above happens and they don't leave by October I truly believe the Majority of leave voters will get behind the Brexit Party. And Birmingham, Labour won by a measily 700 votes and lost 17% of their total. After just a couple of months the Brexit party were a close second. You are forgetting the "I'm pissed off enough" vote that would happen should Parliament poo poo brexit. Lets face it the Politicians didn't want it in the first place! Self interest and their pensions are far more important than doing what their Consitituents voted for! Look at Boston and Maidstone. Both had huge Majority leave votes, 76% in the case of Boston. yet their MP's have constantly voted to remain and blocked any leave deal.

I genuinely think people are pissed off enough to win a Majority for the Brexit Party. They won't be a single issue party for long if they see an opportunity. Believe me!

[USAndretti42]

But wouldn't the next general election be less about Brexit than about the Health Service and austerity, just like last time?

[Barrykearley]

The EU are going to be forcing the dismantling of the NHS should we remain a member

[scotty435]

36 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

The EU are going to be forcing the dismantling of the NHS should we remain a member

Please explain why they would do that?

[Barrykearley]

The EU are completely against ongoing state aid supporting organisations and businesses. 

This is one of the reasons we aren’t bailing out British steel. It’s also one of the reasons comrade Corbyn will struggle in his desire to nationalise things if ever he got to he pm.

[C8RKH]

7 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

The EU are completely against ongoing state aid supporting organisations and businesses. 

This is one of the reasons we aren’t bailing out British steel. It’s also one of the reasons comrade Corbyn will struggle in his desire to nationalise things if ever he got to he pm.

Someone needs to tell the blatant protectionist governments of France, Spain and Germany that!

[Barrykearley]

Yup - one rule for one - one for another. That was typical behaviour of the last European take over project as well