Brexit

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Not doing too well on keeping the cross channel asylum seekers out post Brexit. More have already arrived this year than in the whole of 2020. Not sure many voted for that. 😉

[C8RKH]

Yup. Yet again we are bring let down by the EU, and in France in particular, for not keeping to their own rules with regards to immigration, settlement etc. Instead of dealing with the problem they just allow them to flow through to us. Personally, my simplistic view is we just round them up at sea and tow them back to France as due to EU laws and regs (which the French mostly ignore when it suits them anyway) that is where they should reside/stay. It really is that simple to me. This is an EU issue and they need to deal with it.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Yes, it’s amazing that we can’t stop these boats from entering UK waters.

[Bibs]

While PP is talking a good game, it appears our Border Force boats are going out and collecting them from the Channel. 50 people in one dinghy yesterday and they said they're paying £3k each to cross so someone is doing very well out of their plights. 

While I'm full of sympathy for those in need, there can't be that many people seeking political asylum genuinely and the UK is their only option?

[mdw]

34 minutes ago, Bibs said:

 

While I'm full of sympathy for those in need, there can't be that many people seeking political asylum genuinely and the UK is their only option?

The Uk is the "only option" for none of them.  We had to do training on refugees and were told the UN rules are the  place you stop is the first point of safety and back then if you were an Afghan in the taliban held country side then Kabul was regarded as safe ( bit different now).

I would sugest  its our inability to police our boarders thats at fault not their desire to leave the dumps they come from.     How crap are we as an island that we chose not to deal with this.     Set a number, deal with it in France and anyone alse straight back no questions.

[C8RKH]

48 minutes ago, mdw said:

I would sugest  its our inability to police our boarders thats at fault not their desire to leave the dumps they come from.     How crap are we as an island that we chose not to deal with this.     Set a number, deal with it in France and anyone alse straight back no questions.

Yes, our bad but my suggestion of taking them off their boats, sinking their boats (with no-one on them, just to be clear) and returning them to a French beach is the "best" option. If nothing else, the migrants still in France will see a large number being brought back every day - thereby sending a clear message, spend your £3k, enjoy a day on the channel, go back to where you started from £3k poorer!

Also, the key thing for me is that rather than giving the French more and more money, THEY, just need to abide by their own and EU rules and STOP them from crossing. We cannot ignore the legislation of the French and the EU and we need to hold them to it.

[Barrykearley]

Tow the boats back into French waters - and sink the things when they are ashore. It’s getting stupid.

The Australians simply wouldn’t stomach this pishe.

[Doug Ashley]

'Brexit wasn't about immigration'.... just look at the state of this Brexit thread 😂

A few thoughts after reading some of the above:

- https://fullfact.org/immigration/refugees-first-safe-country/

- In other words, 'required to stay in the first safe country' is misinformation.

- However, that's what they tend to do.  In the year ending March 2021, the UK received 26,903 asylum applications. In 2020 (the latest period for which data is currently available), the highest number of first-time asylum applicants was registered in Germany with 121,995 first-time applicants followed by France with 92,200, Spain with 88,530 and Greece with 40,560.

- Brexit hasn't made any positive difference to UK migration.  In fact, useful workers have gone home in droves and seasonal workers have stayed away (see lorry driver & food picker shortages) while we continue to see illegal crossings.  Perhaps we could train enough replacements, but it looks unlikely and at best it was reckless to create a cliff edge.

- The English language is a draw to many migrants, having learned it through the internet/TV.  Also, those in charge love nothing more than talking about the UK's greatness, while standing in front of 25 giant Union Jacks, and then seem surprised when people want to get here.

- Given the numbers involved, and the fact we are actually a great & well developed country, responsible for some of the turmoil migrants have experienced, I'm sure we can handle them.  Many have gone on to become key workers.  Furthermore, the 'native' birth-rate is insufficient to create the workers we need for the future.

- Farage attacking the RNLI (which historically is neutral to the point of saving German soldiers from the seas in WW2) is disgusting, but at least it has driven a spike in donations so perhaps there is some compassion left in this place.  People's anger is so easily manipulated to be directed at migrants, when it's billionaires who control the message & the prospects of workers...

[Doug Ashley]

 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Not gonna happen. They’re too scared to come out of their homes.

[C8RKH]

@Doug Ashley - it is a complex situation and matter and I think everyone recognises it. Indeed the article you quote confirms that, for instance, a UK Government / Immigration official could reject the asylum request of someone who arrived here illegally and they could indeed send them back again.

"That said, there is some UK domestic law which allows the government to refuse to consider an asylum application if it is judged that the person could have claimed asylum elsewhere. Refugees who arrive in the UK after passing through another EU country can, under certain circumstances, also be returned to the first EU country they entered, under an EU law known as the Dublin Regulation."

I don't recall anywhere on this thread, where anyone has said that someone who is legitimately "fleeing" persecution or whose life is at risk is not perfectly entitled to come here to seek refuge or asylum.  We're a god fearing (whatever form or shape that God maybe) country and we have a social conscience.

However, the anger is directed at people who are very clearly, though many parts of our middle class soft left seem to be incapable of recognising it / accepting it, not fleeing for fear of persecution but are instead looking to gain financially through moving from a country where life is hard and benefits are few, to a country where they perceive they will get free housing, free medical care, free food, and easy work / cash (benefits) and then the chance to bring their extended family over too by "claiming" to be refugees when the bare truth is they are anything but.

The issue is, and the cause of most consternation, how do we equally and fairly identify the refugee who is fleeing out of fear, from the economic migrant who just wants a better life paid for by someone else!

So no, it is not about immigration per se - that is to simplify the argument to the point of irrelevance and just panders to the view that Brexit was about, and is supported by, racists. The inference of which I find quite insulting to be honest. 

We've had immigration for years and I for one believe that those who have come here, from all parts of the world have contributed greatly to what is now the British way of life. But historically the immigrants who came here brought with them a drive, aspiration and work ethic and many of their children, who are now in their 40's+, are doctors, nurses, politicians, who themselves are bringing up the next generation with aspiration and drive.  The difference is that some of the immigration we are seeing is not bringing in people with the same, aspirational attitudes. Hence the issues.

And let's not muddy the waters further by then trying to lump into this lot "seasonal" workers from Poland or Eastern Europe. They are hear for different reasons and behave differently.

As I said, it is a complex situation that is not easily covered by "simple labels"

[Doug Ashley]

I do not mean to insult any individuals by linking immigration and Brexit.  I don't think anyone can deny that it was certainly a factor (Farage 'Breaking Point' poster, false warnings about Turkey etc.) and in itself is not automatically linked to racism (which I didn't mention).  Only a minority of Brexiters are racist (but I am fairly confident that every racist would have voted leave...😉).

Yes, there are legal frameworks to take people back to the original country of entry, but this responsibility is not on the migrant themselves, but the country in which they arrive.  I just think it is important to make it clear who exactly is being criticised when talking about migrants; if it is genuinely the system/government then it would help gain support from everyone to be explicit about this rather than leaving it open to interpretation.

Your views seem based on two main areas:

- Financial cost to the public purse

- Attitude/legitimacy of the migrants themselves

In financial terms, according to this anti-immigration site, the asylum system costs £1bn per year in housing & support payments.

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/news/2020/10/03/cost-of-housing-and-payments-for-failed-asylum-claimants-estimated-at-130-million-per-year

This is £15 per year per person in the UK, or around £30 per working person.

In comparison:

- Brexit is costing around £800m per week.  This is £630 per person per year, or £1200 per working person.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-vote-cost-trade-eu-b1843018.html

- Test & trace has cost something like £20bn, vastly more than other countries spent for the same systems:

https://fullfact.org/online/37bn-test-trace-spending/

- We spend £23bn on housing benefit in total per year.

https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend-by-spend/welfare-spending-housing-benefit/

- £1bn is 0.1% of total public spending:

https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/brief-guides-and-explainers/public-finances/

- It is about 5% of the tax gap:

https://fullfact.org/economy/tax-gap/

- We pay less in benefits per migrant than many other European countries.

On the Brexit figure alone, we are losing per week what the asylum system costs us per year.  And this is for the exact thing which was supposed to fix the 'problem'.

Isn't the amount of anger/attention that migration receives grossly disproportionate?  Why is the media not spending 20x more time than this on Government misuse of public funds, tax evasion, or the cost of Brexit?  Why is it not pointed out that we take in less than our fair share of migrants?

In terms of the attitude of migrants, I'm not sure how this could be measured other than employment rates, which I don't see evidence of being any worse than decades ago.  Migrants arriving today will become key contributors to the economy in decades to come.

And the legitimacy of claims - if you are willing to risk your life crossing the sea in a small dinghy, to get to a country paying less in benefits than Germany, Denmark & others, I don't think it's motivated by pure greed for handouts.

Trying to keep it on topic, Brexit is costing a fortune and hasn't delivered on any of its promises.

[Bibs]

7 minutes ago, Doug Ashley said:

I don't think it's motivated by pure greed for handouts.

What is the motivation to come to the UK? Why not stay in the country they're in or head to Denmark or Germany if the grass is greener there? The weather?

[Inversed]

7 hours ago, C8RKH said:

he issue is, and the cause of most consternation, how do we equally and fairly identify the refugee who is fleeing out of fear, from the economic migrant who just wants a better life paid for by someone else.

To be fair, us Europeans are having a nice time in Europe, also because of exploitation of countries that refugees are now feeling from. It's a cruel world and most of us here prettymuch won the roulette of life, which means white person born in Europe. If life was a game, we started on "Extra easy" difficutly level. And complain because people with no such luck are now trying to survive this game.

This nice life was also by many lifes in these countries, so saying "paid by someone else" is not exactly fair judgement.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Inversed

[Doug Ashley]

27 minutes ago, Bibs said:

What is the motivation to come to the UK? Why not stay in the country they're in or head to Denmark or Germany if the grass is greener there? The weather?

- The vast majority don't come to the UK, and do stay on the continent.

- Many of those who do come here already speak some English due to our (& the USA's) success in global entertainment. Hence they have better prospects & can more quickly integrate.

- The government and many other nationalists love to paint the UK as the greatest country on earth & intrinsically 'better', and at the same time wonder why some migrants are attracted here.

[C8RKH]

11 hours ago, Doug Ashley said:

Only a minority of Brexiters are racist (but I am fairly confident that every racist would have voted leave...😉).

Not so. I know quite a few ardent Remainers who are unbelievably racist they just can't admit it, even when you point how their action/comment was racist.  So again, let's stop the profiling of all racists voted Brexit which is what you are pedalling here.

Brexit and the reasons for it were not all about immigration, again, to say this and then try to justify it on the fact that immigration does not cost much is in my humble opinion missing the point.  For instance there is a massive difference between who we may refer to as immigrants/migrants and why they decided to come here.

For some, they had a right to travel here and WORK and my god many of them worked bloody hard, often putting their comparative "British" colleagues to shame with their attitude to work, their graft, their approach and their intellect.  Why would you not want people to come here who want to work? Who want to build a good life. Who abide by our civil and societal rules. Who contribute to the richness of the UK? (cultural and financial)

The point you don't seem to want to accept Doug, is that not all migrants want to come here and integrate into our society. To become productive. To add to our diversity and culture. We are seen by many as a "soft option" for an easy life where they can also come to try to subvert our way of life. Think they can ignore our societal or civil rules as they are above them.  Whilst this attitude might not be predominant, it certainly exists. And this is what many people rile against.

To be clear, a Polish worker coming here to pick fruit and veg in the fields should be welcomed with open arms. Brexit has shown us that their British equivalent is too fooking lazy to do the work they will do, at the pace they will do it, and all the British worker will do is bitch and moan all day.  The irony is that a lot of the immigration "noise" came from these workshy pieces of horse shit complaining about people taking their jobs. Well, a lot of the migrant workers have gone. So why are they not now doing "those jobs" in place of the migrant worker?  Such hypocrisy fuelled by miss information from the press and politicians on all sides.

A Polish friend of mine came here with her husband 7 years ago.  They have a child born here. She is a bloody hard worker and whilst keeping down her office job, and being promoted several times, she has put herself through her accounting exams to ensure she can get further promotions and be a productive contributor and build a great life. Again, why would we not want people like this here?  Migration, immigration can be a good thing, when it is for the right reasons with the right attitudes.

Some supporters of Brexit used immigration to whip up fury about it. It was wrong. But then quite a few of the Remain arguments were plain wrong too. Both sides were as bad as each other with lies, miss-information, etc.

However, a lot of Brexit supporters, myself included, where not bothered about immigration, especially legal immigration/migration. For me, I was sick and tired of the constant meddling and intervention with our trade and life from the EU and the ECHR. Their disregard for the rule of local, elected Governments in member states really concerned me, and still concerns me.  Their lack of transparency over decisions, funding, money etc built up, over many years, a serial lack of distrust in me of the EU. Seeing UK politicians like the Kinnocks, milking the EU system dry and making vast sums of money for nothing disgusted me. Where was the accountability? The responsibility? The striving to use the position to do good, as opposed to feathering ones, and ones family, own wallets and bank accounts?  The increasing drive to a federal European SuperState scared the absolute shit out of me, and their continued relentless march towards it still scares the shit out of me! I'm proud to be British and happy to be a European. I am British first, European second. I never had the chance to vote for the SuperState or the people who would run it, I was just blindly being led down the path to it - like a lamb to the slaughter - no choice - no clue - my rights not important.  The hypocrisy over fishing and the sheer misjustice of how it was being managed. The common agricultural policy that is the biggest racket the world has ever seen.  The way that the UK would accept rulings, implement the policies, play by the rules, then get fooked up the backside and in every other orifice by the French government and others who paid lip service to it all and just shrugged their shoulders and did what they wanted regardless.  The way that our tax payers money was being squandered on vanity projects in places like Spain - making politicians, builders, shysters et al rich whilst their "halo" very expensive projects were left to rot away, never used etc.  The corruption within and around the EU is mind-blowing. The abuse of power.  The waste and profligacy and double standards. The champagne and caviar lifestyles of the unelected elite. I could go on.  THIS is what drove me to vote for Brexit. Nothing at all to do with immigration really. My daughter voted for Brexit and yet her "man" is Romanian and they have a great life together even though as a Brexit voter she is of course, obviously a racist!  Just like the crass and cheap headlines written by people, on both sides who wanted to stoke up division and unrest, it's all just bullshit. Simple messages dumbed down for the simple masses to consume.

So what if Brexit is costing us more money. I for one think it is worth the investment and I believe that as time goes on we will see a stronger, more united, more cultural diverse and tolerant UK emerging now we have unshackled ourselves from the overweight, lethargic, piss taking, spiteful cess pit that is the EU and it's various parliaments and commissions.

Immigration? No issue for me, as long as you are coming here to work and enrich, to add and to build. But it you just want to come here to sponge and subvert, well, you can @@@@@ right off.

[basalte]

Personally speaking I`m not bothered about the 0.06% of the UK population who are refugee migrants / asylum seekers, whether legal or not. The topic just seems blown out of all sensible proportion.

Sadly our mass media seems all too willing to inflate the problem using the old "man bites dog" formula (ie report the sensational  exception not the rule) when there`s far worse stuff happening every day to affect ordinary life . I  am forced to assume that`s why so many seem to get so hot under the collar.

And, whilst I admit that anecdotal evidence is not very helpful , for what it`s worth in 40 years of adult life, I have literally never met an immigrant who didn`t want to work. In most other cultures, work is more central to concepts of dignity and self-worth than it is here.

As for frankly paranoid ideas about "British culture" being under some kind of extremely ill-defined "threat" that always seem to lurk under the surface in these debates, the immigrants including refugees of whichever faith that I`ve met -again, over 40 years of adult life (and I believe that I have met enough to form a legitimate view) can`t get enough of it !

[C8RKH]

39 minutes ago, basalte said:

In most other cultures, work is more central to concepts of dignity and self-worth than it is here.

I agree!  And with the other stuff you said, which is why it saddens me that people continue to peddle the "Brexit was only about racism/immigration" bull shit. 

Sadly, and it really pains me to say this, British culture is under an extreme threat!  When I was being brought up on a council estate in the 70's, people WANTED to work. ASPIRED to work and took some pride in their houses, their estate etc.  The vast majority of people had a decent life (by no means decadent) and they worked hard, they played hard, and they helped each other out. I remember my dad and one of our neighbours using their swing frame to rig up a joist so they could the engine out of my Dad's Triumph Dolomite for some work. People gave their time, ideas and what they had to help each other. Most of the estate was kept in good order - as usual the odd "lazy feckwit of a scrounger who had never done a days work in his life and who's house and garden always looked like a bomb site existed, but they were the exception - and whilst money was tight it was a good time.

These days, all I see is lazy feckwits in shell/track suits which their arses poking out of their waistband (male) or bellies poking out under a too tight top (female) wallowing around doing fookall and bleating on about how they are entitled to this and that. I see educated people with good jobs in houses were they park like twits, have gardens looking like some nature reserve and all grown over and generally not giving a flying fig about anyone in their community other than themselves. And the vast majority of the people I am referring to here are white, British!  WTF have we created?  In some cases I actually wish we had more aspirational, decent, hard working "immigrants".............

Sadly, it the white British "trash" I referenced above that are being stoked by the news feeds and "hate" and "bile" that is spewed out. They don't have the capability to think for themselves and judge everyone else by their own low standards.

Anyways, we should get back on about Brexit!

 

[basalte]

Hi C8RKH, glad we can agree on something ! I would hate the idea of altering facts to fit any of my arguments and its impossible to be starry-eyed about a proportion of the population who appear entirely at a loss about either improving their lot or even getting anyone else to do it. Something like 14 million are eligible to vote but do not. I will keep this short -as you say , this is supposed to be about Brexit-but my point does tie in with the B word.

I think many including myself feel that the present system does not work for them and does not care for them so why should they care in return ? People from particular social backgrounds find it so much easier to get ahead because they are "assumed" to be competent and capable.

Twenty of the UKs Prime Ministers have been  educated at one single school . It simply does not suggest that social mobility is taken seriously. The American  idea that "anyone can get to be President", (unrealistic though that is) , is not even on the average Brit`s radar ! 

I think this general feeling of powerlessness fed into the campaign to leave the EU where the EU was seen as just another remote and unresponsive elite group. Now, I think that characterisation was not entirely accurate , but those arguments have been well-rehearsed now and I won`t bore everyone with repetition !     

[Chillidoggy]

Given the last US president, it’s not unrealistic at all.

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, basalte said:

Hi C8RKH, glad we can agree on something ! I would hate the idea of altering facts to fit any of my arguments and its impossible to be starry-eyed about a proportion of the population who appear entirely at a loss about either improving their lot or even getting anyone else to do it. Something like 14 million are eligible to vote but do not. I will keep this short -as you say , this is supposed to be about Brexit-but my point does tie in with the B word.

I think many including myself feel that the present system does not work for them and does not care for them so why should they care in return ? People from particular social backgrounds find it so much easier to get ahead because they are "assumed" to be competent and capable.

Twenty of the UKs Prime Ministers have been  educated at one single school . It simply does not suggest that social mobility is taken seriously. The American  idea that "anyone can get to be President", (unrealistic though that is) , is not even on the average Brit`s radar ! 

I think this general feeling of powerlessness fed into the campaign to leave the EU where the EU was seen as just another remote and unresponsive elite group. Now, I think that characterisation was not entirely accurate , but those arguments have been well-rehearsed now and I won`t bore everyone with repetition !     

Good post. Agreed.

[Barrykearley]

Not a single uk political party represent the average working person. Maybe folks when listening to these political elites realise that the exact opposite of anything they say is actually what’s best for them.

In the mean time - Scottish drug addicts are dying in droves - all while Queen Nicola blames the English for everything even though addict care falls firmly at her feet.

[C8RKH]

Labour heartland and should be 100% certain of my vote, yet every time Angela Raynor opens her gob and spouts her bile I just want to vomit. I just do not recognise the Labour Party any more and what they stand for.

Lib Dems - utter joke

So that really only leaves the Conservatives. Least bad of the three but by no means ideal.

[Barrykearley]

And the political elite were shocked when the brexit vote went the way it did. Just shows how disconnected they all are.

I do sit and wonder why the working class are of such irrelevance to politicians 

[C8RKH]

A protest vote for sure, and no one was more shocked than me when leave won!