Brexit

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, Doug Ashley said:

In other other news, inflation is spiking and we had lower GDP growth than the Eurozone in Q3 2021. 

In other news, the IMF forecast for the UK 2021 (whole year growth) has been revised down from 7.0% to 6.8%, against a Eurozone forecast for the 2021 whole year of 5.0% with the Uk on a country by country basis beating France (6.2%), the US (6.0%), Italy (5.8%), Gernamy (3.1%) and Japan (2.4%).

As for inflation, the October figure for the UK was 4.2%. For the Eurozone it was 4.1%. 

As a patriot, I try not to seek to blame everything on one thing, or another, but to look for opportunities to support growth and make the UK a better, more inclusive, place. 

1 hour ago, Doug Ashley said:

It is quite telling that you readily accept the Shell move as a Brexit benefit

That was just, as you well know I suspect, a convenient "sound bite" to counter your negative list.  You'd be a good foil for Angela Raynor I suspect

 

[Doug Ashley]

17 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

can I respectfully ask what your, and the others on here doing the same, point is in constantly digging up "examples" of where Brexit is to blame for something? What are you trying to achieve?

Please can I refer you to the *four decades* of Eurosceptic whining, moaning and examples of how the EU were a massive problem.

Ultimately, I just see people playing down the impact of Brexit, or claiming dubious benefits from it, and want to try to balance the scales.  I'm saddened by the 'us vs. them' attitude this has unleashed in our view of international relations and want to see a more collaborative approach.

In my job, I have put it behind me and I'm working in a post-Brexit environment to try & make things work in the situation we're in.  A few comments on a forum isn't slowing the UK down, but might have some tiny impact on public opinion & ultimately lead to change (I'm not the only one on the only forum doing this).

What would be the point of this thread being nothing but positive spin?

11 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

opportunities to support growth and make the UK a better, more inclusive, place.

Rejoining the single market and customs union perhaps 😉

[C8RKH]

3 minutes ago, Doug Ashley said:

Rejoining the single market and customs union perhaps 

If the EU had stopped at a "single market" and "customs union" we would not be in this position would we? The 4 decades of whining would have been tolerated (as we in the Uk are very tolerant) but never taken seriously or acted on. 

Also, feel free to mention the 4 decades of whining in the Uk, but also the four decades of whining and the 2 decades of stopping us joining in the first place from your friends in Paris for instance!

[pete]

19 minutes ago, Doug Ashley said:

Please can I refer you to the *four decades* of Eurosceptic whining, moaning and examples of how the EU were a massive problem.

Ultimately, I just see people playing down the impact of Brexit, or claiming dubious benefits from it, and want to try to balance the scales.  I'm saddened by the 'us vs. them' attitude this has unleashed in our view of international relations and want to see a more collaborative approach.

In my job, I have put it behind me and I'm working in a post-Brexit environment to try & make things work in the situation we're in.  A few comments on a forum isn't slowing the UK down, but might have some tiny impact on public opinion & ultimately lead to change (I'm not the only one on the only forum doing this).

What would be the point of this thread being nothing but positive spin?

Rejoining the single market and customs union perhaps 😉

My reason for leaving had nothing to do with either of those, I didn't want a federal Europe and that appears even more likely

[C8RKH]

4 minutes ago, pete said:

My reason for leaving had nothing to do with either of those, I didn't want a federal Europe and that appears even more likely

Ditto.

For me it was never about anything other than "sovereignty".  Trade, freedom of movement, common market - I had no issues with that at all. But when the EU decided it wanted to be a "sovereign country", whose sovereignty was above member states, with it's own EU army and border forces etc was the day I said "no" to EU membership.

[910Esprit]

59 minutes ago, Doug Ashley said:

Rejoining the single market and customs union perhaps 😉

This is exactly what you would have had, if the opposition parties had supported Theresa May's 'deal' rather than gambling on  a game of Poker, in which they lost big time. It was the clowns in parliament that let you down, not the 'Brexiteers'

[C8RKH]

3 minutes ago, 910Esprit said:

This is exactly what you would have had, if the opposition parties had supported Theresa May's 'deal' rather than gambling on  a game of Poker, in which they lost big time. It was the clowns in parliament that let you down, not the 'Brexiteers'

Spot on. Very succinctly put. Cracking response.

[C8RKH]

15 hours ago, Doug Ashley said:

I just see people playing down the impact of Brexit

 

 

14 hours ago, C8RKH said:

For me it was never about anything other than "sovereignty".  Trade, freedom of movement, common market - I had no issues with that at all. But when the EU decided it wanted to be a "sovereign country", whose sovereignty was above member states, with it's own EU army and border forces etc was the day I said "no" to EU membership.

 

As per my points above, I have never "played down the impact of Brexit". I always knew it was going to be complex, painful, difficult and that it would hurt. However, the key for me, was I was prepared to accept that "pain" as the price for retaining sovereignty.  So I am not trying to play down the impact, I am trying to make the best of the conditions we now have.  There is a subtle difference here - in other words, i am not denying it is hard. I have never denied it is hard.

This forms the basis for my responses say on here, where I say to be "stop whinging about passport control, it's now how it works, just get on with it, like the rest of the world has done for decades".  I'm not saying it is not a PITA. Not difficult. I'm just saying it is the new normal, stop whining, make it work!

We have a tendency to focus on the bad points. But what does that achieve, really, in the end? Grumble away for sure, but it will only make you more miserable and not change anything. So ultimately it's pointless.

But if you focus on being positive you can improve things and seek opportunities to make things better.

[Barrykearley]

Still sat wondering when the power blackouts are going to start. Thankfully I still have some food available 😊

[Frickin_idiot]

I want GB to work with everybody but be ruled by ourselves - that why I voted for Brexit.

Freedom of movement was an issue - if you are going to allow immigration it should be controlled ensuring that we have adequate housing, school places and medical facilities to support the influx. 

[Barrykearley]

7 hours ago, Frickin_idiot said:

if you are going to allow immigration it should be controlled ensuring that we have adequate housing, school places and medical facilities to support the influx. 

Not an issue - just use older 4* hotels instead

[basalte]

Well there seems to have been a degree of caricaturisation of respective positions. I have zero doubt that all on this thread want our country to succeed , but the means to achieve that are of course in dispute. Making 44% of our trade more cumbersome with our nearest neighbours does not seem the easiest way to achieve it. On the other hand there have been diplomatic tensions regardless of wider basic allegiances.  Whilst I can see some merit in arguments for "Sovereignty effectively whatever the cost" ( in the light of the experience of Greece in particular) , "Sovereignty" and "Taking Back Control" seem inadequate to describe a situation where for example  70% of UK train companies are partially or wholly foreign owned .

Arriva aka Deutsche Bahn , includes Wales and Borders , Tyne and Wear Metro.

Avanti West Coast -30 % Trenitalia 

C2C-Trenitalia

Govia including Thameslink , London Midland, Gatwick Express, Southern, Great Northern - 35% Keolis (which is 70% owned by the French State-if we declare war on France we`re stuffed !)

Heathrow Express : 41.88% Singapore China and Qatar shareholding

Peppa Pig -US toy maker Hasbro (ok its a cartoon pig beloved of some senior politicians not a train but you get my drift)acquired British Company Entertainment One for $3.8 billion on 31st Dec 2019.

So all this talk of "taking back control" and "sovereignty" only takes you so far where the predominance of a free market ideology holds sway here to a far greater extent then in  most other European nations .

French company PSA closed down their Ryton works ;

did the 2,000 redundant workers there "take back control" ?

Honda closed in Swindon

-did their dismissed workers "take back control "?

(I won`t mention  other car companies just here...)

Mondelez (a subsidiary of US corporation Kraft)  own Cadburys .

British greatness and independence depended to a very large extent on its own ability to make its own economic decisions, to say nothing of the personal feeling of "taking back control " if you have a steady job that puts food on the table for your family. 

EU or no EU that has largely gone.

By all means laud "Global Britain" instead but in doing so, there is no room for economic jingoism .

Citing our greatness whilst ignoring the sheer number bread and butter industries and infrastructure that are not controlled by Britain-many of which are indeed controlled by EU corporations - never ceases to amaze me.

 

 

[pete]

Sovereignty as far as I am concerned is the ability to make our own laws. Don't recall saying we were great and having companies owned by foreign companies has nothing to do with leaving the EU as far as I am concerned and doesn't worry me at all. 

[C8RKH]

I actually think you have missed the point by a country mile @basalte, certainly when it comes to my position.

Let's not confuse wanting to be a "sovereign" state with who owns what in the private sector. I personally do not give a fig who owns our railway companies, or our manufacturing plants as I actually believe in the "free market", but I also believe that a "free market" is a global market, not just a micro market in parts of one of the smallest continents.

I could counter with the reason why Honda chose to invest in the UK, and setup Operations here some 32 years ago, was because we operated as a Sovereign State and had a reputation as being a solid, safe place for investment as we played by the rules, followed the law, and so provided an attractive, safe environment for said investment to be made. We "won" that investment against fierce competition from our EU partners. As a result, many thousands of people, both within that Honda plant and in the supply chain, have had up to 32 years of employment, salaries, benefits etc. What a fantastic result for them, for Swindon, and for the country!

Let's talk about Nissan in Sunderland shall we. All the talk was that due to Brexit they were going to pull out. Instead they have announced further record investment and more jobs. What a fantastic, continuing success story that will be build on their so far 37 years of inward investment and job creation in the UK.

You mention Deutsche Barn - hmmm, a German state owned company, propped up and funded by the German Government in a manner that does not, I suspect, stand full scrutiny with EU competition/state aid laws.  Certainly no opportunity for a UK company to operate rail in Germany, as well, it's all owned by the German Government.  The UK took a Sovereign decision to "privatise" the Rail Operating Companies. Also, any investment in Deutsche barn is ultimately paid for by the German Government from general taxation. Until 2018, the UK Rail Operators, through their Franchise Fee's were a NET CONTRIBUTOR to the UK Treasury. In other words, our Government was being paid by the Operators, as opposed to having to subsidise them. Granted some Rail Franchises were subsidised in the UK, due to the high fixed costs and low passenger numbers, BUT, the net outcome was a positive contribution to the Treasury. So given this, do we really give a fig as to who "owns" those Rail Operating Companies?

Heathrow Express is a non-rail franchised, non-subsidised private rail company. It was entirely funded by the private sector. Struggling to see your point as a result of that as to who owns it. It was always going to be privately owned and so as for who "controls it", who cares? Isn't that what free enterprise is all about?

You mention Trenitalia. Another EU member states, state owned Rail monopoly operator. Funded by the Italian Government. Subsidised by the Italian tax payer (well, those who can be bothered to pay tax anyway). Same comments as Deutsche Barn really. They have a Franchise to run in the UK, with service levels and penalties to pay for missing them. The liabilities sit with Italy not with the UK Government, so what's the issue re control? What would control actually give you, over the obligations in the Franchise Service Control? Oh yes, it would give you risk and liabilities. That's all.

I'm gonna be polite here, but what the fook does it matter, and how is it connected to Brexit, control or Sovereignty, that a UK chocolate firm was bought by a megalomaniac US food company? Especially when said purchase was made in 2005, 11 years BEFORE Brexit?

Basically, I'm confused about your whole post as on the one hand you seem to be saying that through Brexit we left a "free market", but on the other you are complaining that many of our companies are being taken over by "Johnny Foreigner" and that's poor form, even though many of the examples you raise happened pre Brexit when we were in, errr, the free market!

There are clashes and debates raging across the EU right now. in the Netherlands, Poland, Hungary, Italy etc around Sovereignty, the EU and what it all means.  the one thing that Brexit did do, which is going to be hugely significant for the EU, is that it woke up citizens across the 27 states of the Union and made them start to question the role, the legality and the vision of the EU, and what it really might mean for them.  This great, small, insignificant, but influential nation, woke the dragon!

 

Your post just feels like yet another "everything is Brexit and Brexiteers fault" rant to be honest. Yet another excuse to regurgitate lists of useless information to support the case that, whilst some of may think we are a great country, there are many more of us who just want to talk the country down and focus on the negatives.

I do wish we could just move on and focus on the future, and some of the great5 things that this country does, and some of our great native companies do not just in the UK but on the world stage. this constant negativity is demoralising. If you really hate it so much, or cannot stand it, or live with it, then just fook off somewhere else to live. You never know, it might make you happy.       (literally fook off, not physically, you have a right to live where you moan hahahaha)

 

 

[Bibs]

There's got to be enough for the Police; French, British, Interpol or whoever to arrest the people smugglers who are not only making what appears to be huge sums of cash from this but are killing pretty large numbers of people. 

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent/news/several-dead-in-channel-tragedy-258018/

[SFO]

Honda closing down Swindon had nothing to do with Brexit. It was because of EU/Japan trade deal that removed tariffs on imports of Japanese cars into EU. Honda's Swindon plant would have closed even if Brexit hadn't happened. 

Honda isn't opening another plant anywhere in the EU. 
 

Edited November 24, 2021 by SFO

[MJON]

Just to qualify one earlier example of a misplaced comment to satisfy individuals personal beliefs  “ Honda pulled out of UK”.

“Honda sales in Europe have declined steadily from 2009 to 2015, with market share sliding to below 1% for the first time ever in 2015, compared to 2 percent in 2007. Before dropping to an all-time low in 2017” 

Honda made a strategic decision to concentrate on markets where they can typically sell 10x more than in Europe. The numbers just didn’t stack and with the removal of tariffs, more cost effective to import the small volumes from Japan. The Swindon plant could have been anywhere within the EU and the decision would have been the same. Although, the case with Mitsubishi, slightly different who made the strategic decision to entirely withdraw from Europe.

Absolutely nothing to do with BREXIT!

 

[C8RKH]

51 minutes ago, MJON said:

Just to qualify one earlier example of a misplaced comment to satisfy individuals personal beliefs  “ Honda pulled out of UK”.

“Honda sales in Europe have declined steadily from 2009 to 2015, with market share sliding to below 1% for the first time ever in 2015, compared to 2 percent in 2007. Before dropping to an all-time low in 2017” 

Honda made a strategic decision to concentrate on markets where they can typically sell 10x more than in Europe. The numbers just didn’t stack and with the removal of tariffs, more cost effective to import the small volumes from Japan. The Swindon plant could have been anywhere within the EU and the decision would have been the same. Although, the case with Mitsubishi, slightly different who made the strategic decision to entirely withdraw from Europe.

Absolutely nothing to do with BREXIT!

 

You could argue the same for Mitsubishi, pulled out of UK car market but again, more market dynamics than anything to do with Brexit but people will link it as desperation to prove they were right and Brexit is bad.

[basalte]

Oh dear I seem to have inadvertently touched a raw nerve by mentioning organisations controlled by small unaccountable groups running key parts of UK infrastructure. I had hoped that people who desire “ sovereignty “ could relate to that unsatisfactory undemocratic situation.  
As an aside there is still plenty of caricaturisation and assumptions over what people actually think and mean in this thread and it reeks of the screaming - headlines propaganda stance taken by particular newspapers and broadcasters who ( behind their moral high horses ) have their own reasons for avoiding scrutiny of their financial affairs ( by the EU amongst others ). Apparently my remarks about the way the EU oppressed Greece count for nothing in this thread ; I have to be a True Believer one way or the other ! 

Talking of “ country miles “  you have definitely missed my point by said measure  .Trying to make my post a moan about Brexit when I was making a much wider point about lack of national control over economic destiny .

 I deliberately chose and included examples of foreign companies operating here long before Brexit - do you honestly think I am unaware of that timeline ? Bizarre . 

The point which you have all missed by a country mile is that this country started to fail to be be in control of its economic infrastructure in the 1980s , “EU or no EU “.
I’ll repeat that , since you ignored it the first time in my above post that I took the trouble to put in black and white . 
“EU or no EU “. 
Like I wrote in my post above . In black and white .

Bit miffed you chose to ignore that bit in favour of lazily stereotyping me as a moaner . 

Yes Honda and Nissan invested here from Japan and the EU let them .
So what’s your problem with the EU there ?

Apparently the “Soviet / Nazi EU “ didn’t mind the world investing in the UK . Not a very consistent position to take unless you accept the reality that the EU is not and never was an Enemy of the free market .

- and so we arrive at the crux of your hostility . 

Do you honestly think I fail to recognise that most of you love the “free market “ ( despite that actually meaning “large corporations “ these days ) ? People who do well out of the free market love it and think it’s the best invention since money itself - that’s how our social system predominantly works .

So ok , I am going to clarify ; maybe I just wasn’t clear enough about the nature of my scepticism over “ Sovereignty “ and “ Taking back control “ .

You think foreigners owning our key infrastructure isn’t a problem.

I happen to think it is . Most tax they pay goes to their home country ; most damagingly, decisions affecting the livliehood of thousands are made outside those communities, outside those countries , outside accountability ,

EU or no EU ! Yes ? 

I’m sure workers at the sharp end of those decisions would love a bit of “ taking back control “ .

Or will they fling their caps in the air and shout “ Hooray for the wonderful Free Market and the dole office !!” 

(By the way you mean I should “figuratively “ fook off not “literally “. Maybe I would literally but your precious Brexit ended freedom of movement). 

[Barrykearley]

13 hours ago, Bibs said:

There's got to be enough for the Police; French, British, Interpol or whoever to arrest the people smugglers who are not only making what appears to be huge sums of cash from this but are killing pretty large numbers of people. 

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent/news/several-dead-in-channel-tragedy-258018/

I simply cannot understand why the uk government doesn’t fund fishermen et al to assist in dealing with this. Stop giving money to the French - they are just spending it on wine and cheese.

[C8RKH]

It's a tragedy. But getting rather sick and tired of the French attacks on the UK.

I would immediately start operations to intercept the boats in the channel and tow them back to France. Disembark the people and destroy the boats and engines.

I would open a UK special embassy by the camp. And I would staff it and process every asylum seeker IN FRANCE. Those who were legitimate, had a right, would get settled in the UK. Every one of them during the processing would have fingerprints and DNA taken to verify future id (I'm a massive fan of a UK National database for everyones fingerprints / DNA by the way. No exceptions....).

Anyone who tried to circumvent the process, and was caught would have their future settlement rights removed. That would be a significant deterrent to try and cut off volume of migrants for the scum bag traffickers to exploit.

Clear and unambiguous rules. Strict but fair enforcement. Each party needing to play their part.

[march]

What I don't get is that the French police just watch - all they have to do is run up/ drive up and put a knife through a tube and it's end of crossing, they don't even have to tackle the migrants. Also many of these boats look like they are being built for single use (the manufacturers will know exactly what they are to be used for), why aren't the police going after and shutting down the boat manufacturers, making tubes is a skilled job.

[910Esprit]

TBH if I was the French, I'd probably do exactly the same.   The government need to come up with unilateral steps to reduce the attraction of the UK as a final destination for bogus refugees. 

 

[SFO]

4 hours ago, C8RKH said:

I would open a UK special embassy by the camp. And I would staff it and process every asylum seeker IN FRANCE. Those who were legitimate, had a right, would get settled in the UK. Every one of them during the processing would have fingerprints and DNA taken to verify future id (I'm a massive fan of a UK National database for everyones fingerprints / DNA by the way. No exceptions....).

France is a safe country. There is no good reason for this. 

13 hours ago, basalte said:

Most tax they pay goes to their home country ;

Utter nonsense.

Tax paid to HMRC by a UK business (but foreign owned) does not go to that foreign country. 

[Colin P]

3 hours ago, march said:

What I don't get is that the French police just watch.

Come on, it's the national sport. Watching people come into France whilst doing nothing and watching them leave whilst doing nothing  in both cases making it the UK's problem. Admittedly, generally those who entered the country only left because the UK made them. 

Seriously though, that is an absolute disgrace and I really cannot see how it can be defended. In the UK those police officers would currently be suspended and awaiting formal charges once someone in an ivory tower can figure out how they can make them stick and the commissioner would have been forced to resign.