Brexit

[Andyww]

The EU (Catherine Ashton specifically) provoked Putin so far over Ukraine with her "come and join us" messages that a war became very close and its still possible that conflict could occur over that region.

[C8RKH]

Especially with current overtones and courting of the 'Stans.....

And when Australia graduates from Eurovision to become the 29th member state after Turkey the shit really will hit the fan....

[Barrykearley]

And Putin has a valid reason for being p@ssed about that.

at the end of ww2 a treaty was signed that agree the European borders would not move any further east. I'm sure my history is correct there. Now the Eu wish to rewrite that

[waofner]

5 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

@waofner saying that no war in Europe is down to the EU is about as useful and true as saying there are no little green men in space because non have landed and said hello on earth!

Europe and her people and land were decimated by 11 years of totally destructive wars in 30 years from 1914 to 1944. A whole generation had almost been wiped out. Peace was desperately needed and wanted by all and the economic miracle started to take route in the mid 50's and boomed in the 60's. Long before the common market was a twinkle in a bureaucrats eye.

I would strongly argue that the cold war, with thousands of nuclear warheads pointed in all directions at and from Europe did more for lasting piece. WW3 would have been an unwinnable war.

20 years of economic boom enabled and encouraged the common market which fueled further prosperity across Europe for another 25 years.

It only started to go wrong around 10 years ago when the bureaucrats of the EU hoodwinked the population of Europe into going down a federal superstate path.

If this route does not change, I can actually see a war in some parts of Europe as a result! Now there's a prediction for you.

 

sorry if the word "maybe" insists that i am sure about it- i am not! (not a native speaker)

i am only sure that if people come together trying to find copromises to live in peace is not wrong.

would it really be bad to build the united states of europe? i would not be frightened.

11 minutes ago, Andyww said:

The EU (Catherine Ashton specifically) provoked Putin so far over Ukraine with her "come and join us" messages that a war became very close and its still possible that conflict could occur over that region.

would you attack your neighbor because he starts a new friendship?

[ChrisJ]

From Reuters on Sunday

http://uk.reuters.com/article/britain-eu-germany-france-idUKL8N19I0F2

I think this is the document being spoken about: http://s.tvp.pl/repository/attachment/d/5/1/d51736df11c6ad23221e46543829f1df1467008961919.pdf

from a link on this page

 

[andydclements]

6 minutes ago, waofner said:

 

would you attack your neighbor because he starts a new friendship?

That's not the right situation. Your asking (assumption) a person of sound mind, without a desire and strength to potentially take over the world.

Try: Would a deranged ex-partner with self-control issues start a fight with the ex's new partner?

[waofner]

statement of grillparzer: from humanity to nationalism to bestiality

[Jacques]

I very much agree with that,539......

Those in power have never cared about the normal majority, the populations. It was never about Peace and friendship.

They only care about themselves, their Circus, and their road to ever more power and Money. Be that a king, a dictator or politicians, or even  banks and multinational Companies. Did the EC take stonehard action against vag because of their deliberate fraud and deceit? No. Only very rarely have the World seen a truthfull, honest, careing and righteous leader.

If one thinks about conspiracy theories, there's an explanation.

If ones doesn't think about that, one might argue that power and Money corrupts.

Have it your way

Naturally, campaigners of the 2016 UK vote, both sides, will derrive a "truth" out of every single Little story, data, statictical data or incident, they can. Most have a hoarde of spindoctors, the professional liars. I think that this is no surprise to anyone, not now, not before.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and that's exactly what we are wittnessing, both yesteryear and today.

Just poping outside the ec for a moment, think about this for a while, and then come with an explanation (and this is a Collection of very many states):

Why is it that in the US there are around 3000 children WHO dies of gunshooting excercises every year? Between 1955 and 1975 around 58.000 American soldiers were killed in action in the Vietnam war. That is the same as us residents killed by us gunviolence over a two year period. 31.076 people wre shot and killed in the US in 2010 and a further 73.505 us people were treated in hospital for gunviolence or accidents in tha same year. That is extreme. Is it maybe time we sit Down and think for a while? Is it maybe time to reason over the efficiency of a union? What can it actually do?

Why is it that politicians cannot vote against shooting incidents as those many we have seen again and Again? Why is it  that people have to die because of Money? Why is it, that politicians deny this and keep refraining from changing the lawcomplex to suit todays World and not sometime during the 1800?

Back to the ec.

I ask this: did the EC manage to stop the imigration into the ec from africa and the middle East in 2015?

Why is it that the ec cannot force Switzerland into openly demonstrate all of the crooks and Companies WHO hide crime Money in their banks? And then some.

Some might say that the same mechanisms are taking place within the ec. I see no real differences. I see an elite WHO live and thrive and all for themselves, much supported by a monetary elite from international bordeless taxless Companies, WHO have no regret, no soul, no conscience. The ec lures us into believing that it's all avout us. A nice dream to some, but a dream.

Howcome some voters regret their vote for independance from a totalitarian economical drived system, which turned into something completely else?

What is it, that entertain the number of voters WHO after a long campaign and way before that, got so tired of the ec, that they want out, voted out, and then changed their mind? I mean, beside the political campaigns leading up to the vote, did the UK people not have a clear mind of what have happened within the ec during the last 20 years? Honestly, let's not make the UK voters any more sturpid, because I don't think they are at all and never were in the first place.

Let me make another comment: how is it that the World of today takes a rolemodel in the youngsters, those of no life experience, no memory of what was, those WHO cannot think with their mind and Heart out of experience? I think it's sad to see, that power is today often moved over to the blinded youngsters, WHO go for the latest and greatest, rather than looking to ask the older (hopefully wiser) part of society.

I repeat: the ec was never a people's union, it's a soulless godless dictatorship and it shows clearly. Thereby I have answered to the comment about the disgracefull happening in Danish history abot the revote Again and Again till' the ec got their will. Dispicable.

On another note, I agree that germany have a recent history that lay a certain pressure over their head to vote yes for this and that. Could it be, that there was also another reason? As the german economy is the biggest in europe, could it be, that there are other factors at play here?

Kindly, respectfully and peacefully,

Jacques.

[Chillidoggy]

Farage's statement in the EU parliament - brilliant!

[Barrykearley]

I loved it too. It's amazing how it's been spun so negatively against him. 

He's is a pit of corrupt snakes having a bash and the media portray him as a demon !! Thanks BBC for your ever balanced reporting 

[Andyww]

The losing side seem to be getting worse. I woke up this morning to see a Facebook post which was showing because a "friend" liked it which said "Any English person who still likes their country must be a vile human being".

Charming!

I have never seen anything like this from Brexit.

Farages statement was a bit strong in parts but the BBC distorted it by only showing the most provocative parts.

[basalte]

There are deeply immature hotheads on both sides who think that personal abuse is somehow an argument. That`s depressing to any reasonable person.

I think it is fine to call peoples` views foolish (preferably explaining WHY that is thought) -that does not make them fools.

Personally I haven`t noticed any one side being more significantly hateful than the other but I have read reports of people being abused in the street for being foreign. I would ask them is this 2016 in their heads, or 1616 ?.

[Andyww]

This would be my plan:

Invoke article 50 today and leave the EU next week with no negotiations at all.

All EU residents who are already here welcome to stay and free movement maintained with EU but no benefits of any kind whatever. Anyone involved in hatred against immigrants has any benefits they are claiming removed and serious cases jailed. Essential to project the correct message.

As we would have the same status as all other non-EU countries, we apply the same import tariffs as on all other countries which are zero on most goods, 3-4 % on some others and 10% on cars. But we specify that we are ready to negotiate tariffs down to zero with other EU countries it THEY approach US with a proposal.

What would then happen is the German car industry would force Merkel to engage with us, and she would force the EU because historically the EU has always done what German industry wants. In the unlikely event that they give no concessions we are still not badly off regards exports owing to the lower pound and the government would gain additional tax revenue from imports.

 

[C8RKH]

Bloody brilliant but too much simplicity and common sense so Politicians would never understand it or accept it. They love the grey.

[ChrisJ]

I've been thinking along the same lines as @Andyww

This banging on about wanting to remain part of the Single Market makes is sound like we are begging, when what we really want is Free Trade. Offer Free Trade as our position as a take it or leave it.

Free Movement/Benefits. Benefits only payable to UK residents - when we moved back to the UK (2005), my wife had "no recourse to public funds" and I couldn't claim anything as I had been out of the country for 10+ years, even though I had had 10+ years of contributing before that. In my opinion more immigration from the Commonwealth should be encouraged.

 

 

 

 

[lotusesprit1]

I Just do not see a world of high import tariffs any more. We would just by more Japanese, American, British assembled cars veg and fruit would come from outside Europe, our banking industry might take a hit but I suspect they will find a way around it.

so what if I have to pay a little more if I choose to buy a new German car they are not that good anymore anyway.....

[C8RKH]

I agree with last two posts. Commonwealth immigration was a huge benefit to UK before and could be again. We could also rejuvenate the value of the commonwealth through trade opening up new markets not just to sell too, but more importantly for us take manufactured goods from promoting local manufacturing and exports to drive economic growth. We could support these emerging markets with bankibg facilitirs and industrial know how and research. Wow, the days of the commonwealth driving international growth and value could emerge!

Offer EU free trade, buy elsewhere if they don't want it. Offer places and jobs to those we have work for and want in the EU.

Why do we need the EU and why are our leaders and press not searching for the positives?

[ChrisJ]

As I understand it the Immigration Acts of 1962 & 1968 were introduced as one of the requirements of joining the EEC - they didn't want Commonwealth citizens to have unfettered access to the EEC via the UK. Prior to these acts, Commonwealth citizens had extensive rights in the UK - the right to vote in our elections might be the only one remaining.

[C8RKH]

So Queen Nicola goes to Brussels, they all politely say hello and then no deal. UK out, you're all out. Pretty emphatic and Spain and France will stand firm.

Wonder what the odds would be right now on her winning Indyref2 with a promise of the Euro, Shengen border controls and open immigration with targets.

Interesting.....

Oh and FTSE100 recovered already and pound still rising. Hmmm.....

[Barrykearley]

And the bbc finally accept the FTSE is recovering. Not flash headline news - but it's buried on the news page in the small print

[ChrisJ]

The news re the FTSE rising has been on the same place on the BBC website all day. Nothing on the Gruniad though.

You and Yours on Radio 4 yesterday was "How is Brexit affecting you?". There was a lady (15:40 in to the programme). To paraphrase

• We've lost a great deal of money in our Pension.
• Lost a lot in 2008, just got back to where we were, now the whole thing has gone again
• Yesterday morning calculated that they had lost £40

Now that the FTSE is back above last Thursday, I guess they haven't lost anything at all - will the BBC get them back on or do any follow-up, will they heck.

I've just written a long letter to my MP (Grant Shapps) outlining my thoughts for the future. Maybe we all should do so.

I also told him that the selection process for the next PM needs to be speeded up.

[Barrykearley]

 

 

[DanR]

Very sad, but Brexit could be followed by:
Grexit
Departugal
Italeave
Czechout
Outstria
Finis
Slovakout
Latervia
Byegium
Only Remania will stay
It is also uncertain as to what Poland will do: they keep talking about having a poll but but have not done anything about it ...

[march]

 

[Barrykearley]

I can see the funny side of that - but Christ that's a diabolical and distasteful portrayal of the result...... Did Angela Merkel commission that??