US LOT Forum - Questions for Lotus

[Nelly]

3 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Frankly, do I want all this shite and its distraction in a driver focused sports car? Do I shite. I've got over the shock and awe of the technology in the S90. Now, it mostly just annoys me.

Trouble is, I believe the mass market does want this and increasing volume is one objective.

Other than a new car next year and keeping a V6 engine, very much a PR exercise.  Some terrible questions (you get the company top brass in view and all you can do is ask about diagnostics!!!)  I suppose it was always unlikely too many secrets would be revealed.

@Bibs, great effort keeping a neutral face throughout - I think my jaw would have hit the ground on a couple of occasions.

[C8RKH]

40 minutes ago, The Pits said:

Not saying anything!

Just one small suggestion. If Lotus are looking for more accessible driving events, where their cars can be driven properly, without breaking Swiss traffic laws or risking any PR disasters, without the need to pay a few hundred quid to close a road (the cost of a trackday anyway), may I suggest they consider using the test track that they drive past on the way to work every morning? Looking for ways to avoid the the cost of track hire when you have one of the best test tracks in the country is... um... [you fill in the blank].

 

Dumb?

Brainless?

Stoopid?

...

[The Pits]

I think it’s indicative of the actual amount thought that has gone into customer driving events to date - little to none. Much like all the other ‘possible avenues’ they’re looking into, I’m sure it’s right up there with all the other ideas that are absolutely definitely something to consider, possibly, at some stage. Like I said, Lotus is being run by some proper corporate creatures now. Easy to argue that passionate visionaries never made much money there so let’s see how they get on with some committee culture, procrastination and buzz words!

[The Pits]

On a more positive note I was pleased to hear they are producing equipment to help fight the corona virus. A commendable thing to  be doing and also an opportunity to show some smart thinking and innovation. No doubt the highly capable PR team are planning to let people know about this at some stage.

Also enjoyed the conforming to stereotypes when the guy from Hong Kong asked about about access to diagnostic tools and OBD ports, whereas all the Italian wanted to know was about engines! 😄

[mg4lotus]

Can a Swiss section be added to TLF to aid their membership? An opportunity? @Bibs Would you get assistance from Lotus for this?

[Bibs]

2 hours ago, The Pits said:

No doubt the highly capable PR team are planning to let people know about this at some stage.

Didn't they just do that in the video?

2 minutes ago, mg4lotus said:

Can a Swiss section be added to TLF to aid their membership?

I did look afterwards and saw that we have 3,000 visitors/year from Switzerland so have an email I'm drafting to Ron to help them out if we can. Not sure Lotus would help and to be fair, there's not much they could do in this instance as TLF is the one with the resources.

[Parramint]

Regarding help to Lotus clubs, over the last 16 years I’ve been involved quite heavily with Lotus Ltd of North America.  Initially running tours for members in 2003/4 and virtually every year until this one (virus).  
For the last 10 years they have been based around both Goodwood events, we visit the two old factories in London, Hethel, CTL, ECM, ACBC grave, Kett Hall, Malcolm Ricketts, Brooklands and other places of interest....including North Norfolk.

In the Bahar period ‘we’ went some way down the road to having some club information put in the car along with the service/instruction books before it was sent to the U.S. We got as far as designing a leaflet, but if memory serves me correctly........Dany left the building.....

I thought it was a great idea, with little cost to Lotus.

 

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, Bibs said:

Didn't they just do that in the video?

And how widely aired has that been in general then?

[Bibs]

We've shared it to 94,000 facebook fans and 900,000 annual visitors to TLF, then there's all the other clubs. It's also been in the news previously.

 

[hedgerley]

4 hours ago, The Pits said:

On a more positive note I was pleased to hear they are producing equipment to help fight the corona virus. A commendable thing to  be doing and also an opportunity to show some smart thinking and innovation. No doubt the highly capable PR team are planning to let people know about this at some stage

Lotus did get some some coverage a few weeks back. Also good to see a Chinese company getting a little credit for helping out locally due to the Lotus connection.

https://www.edp24.co.uk/business/lotus-boss-reveals-protect-and-preserve-plan-against-coronavirus-1-6591824

Interesting to compare with how McLaren are promoting their Covid-19 work. I couldn't see anything on the Group Lotus site.....

https://www.mclaren.com/group/news/articles/

[MPx]

Well I can see where the cynical views have effectively been endorsed by that podcast, and the personnel (at least in that environment) weren't very charismatic - just corporate.  Russell Carr did much better at the Evija launch, although that was probably easier.  But overall my impression was much more favourable than is being expressed by Andy and Jonny.  

They did stick to the script about what a car "for the drivers" means at Lotus - light, fast and above all great handling.  That alone should marginalise some of the fears of dilution by an SUV producer ....

They did report increased sales and a profit!

They did well in trying to be inclusive of clubs asking (IMO very poor) self interested niche questions instead of wider questions about the cars/futures/timetables/marketing - stuff important to Lotus that they may have engaged with, with a bit more enthusiasm.

I was encouraged that they see the issue with NLA spares and gave at least lip service to not allowing that to happen so much in the future (presumably for current and future models) - plus offering further help with after market initiatives for the older stuff.

If they want to grow volume they seem to know that they need to concentrate their fire in N America and China - however bad that is for us in the UK, the UK market for Lotus doesn't offer so much potential growth as those others.

They've made progress completing additional production facilities at Hethel

The bits I'm less up beat about 

They've made no progress in marketing and the only new idea put out - offering a few days driving on roads - is (IMO) an avenue to 10s of more sales not 10000s.  Although Sports cars are very aspirational for the young and it will be good long term to raise awareness there, I suspect the reality of volume sales to actual buyers are much more likely to be middle aged or worse who have more disposable income.  They didn't say/weren't asked about what channels they're using to get to those people.  

They were a bit behind the curve with the opportunity for classic "continuation" models that seems to have been a reasonable earner for others - plus another marketing opportunity.

There's still very little to show for 2 years and as much investment as you could imagine.  I'm surprised their adopted corporate style and training hasn't led to a much clearer roadmap with many tangible deliverables along the way that they would be keen to trumpet and not keep in confidence.

[The Pits]

All very fair points.

Though obviously good for volumes if it works, the thought about making cars primarily for US and Chinese tastes and requirements did nothing to reassure me. What does that do to the design and engineering briefs? Major alarm bells for me there.

[rallyesax]

25 minutes ago, The Pits said:

The thought about making cars primarily for US and Chinese tastes and requirements did nothing to reassure me.

That! 

It is, sadly, totally understandable from a Car maker POV nowadays and unavoidable. But, for me too, it marks a new milestone in the way Lotus is gonna make cars that really doesn't smells good at all for the most of us 😕

[KAS-118]

Hmmm...have to feel sorry for Lotus, they seem to be able to do nothing right - apparently.

Firstly, how good anything is - is comparative.

Perhaps I've missed it; but I've never heard anyone say that an Elise, or even the more heavy Evora, isn't 'fun - but if we were in the 1960's no-doubt people would be horrified if it were proposed Lotus would produce a 'stripped out' little sports car weighing 930kg - that's 40% more than an Elan Sprint. No doubt people would be sending their letter in - complaining it was a right porker and would handle like a Elephant on a roller skate.

No doubt those people would bemoan that a 'real' sports car should't have seat belts, any kind of side impact protection or crumple zones - because they, unnecessary and it takes the 'fun' out of driving. Sure, if you have an accident you might end up dead - but hey ho - you've had more fun driving your car then that 'future' chap who's managed to walk away with no more than a few bruises and will get to drive again.

It seem to me ridiculous that people are complaining that Lotus are planning to offer a 'good' infotainment system - especially when I recall other owners complaining you can't get DAB Radios to work in an Evora - and since when was having bit of storage space so you could enjoy your car on a long drive, and heaven forbid actually go away on holiday in it, ever count as a bad thing? 

Frankly, I wouldn't want to buy a Lotus - but then every time I went on a long-weekend away I''d have to take the 'other' cat - because I couldn't fit a couple of overnight bags in it. Its as though some people would like to buy a Lotus and just have it sitting on their drive to look at - rather than maximise the time that you could enjoy driving it. 

I can recall when it wasn't uncommon for cars not to have powered assisted steering - and when they first came out road testers complained about a lack of steering feel. However, systems get better - and needs change. 

I can't help but feel that people are complaining about wanting a 'New Lotus' model - but at the end of the day - want them to be exactly the same as they already are - or even were 70 years ago.

Since when did having a bit of space, and a better infotainment system, become mutually exclusive to having a great looking, great handing - and above all 'fun' car?

The hard facts are that Lotus aren't selling enough cars - and that's on the bass of what that are currently offering. So they're going to have to offer a range of cars that broaden their appeal. Yes, I do hope they are comparatively light, yes I do hope that are comparatively compact and nimble, yes I do hope they are comparatively fast and dynamic - but I also hope they incorporate the cutting edge of technology and are not archaic and outdated even before they've come out. 

 

 

 

[The Pits]

A reasonable sounding argument if somewhat exaggerated to stress the point.

The thing that concerns many is not storage bins or tft screens but the change in focus and where that might lead. It could lead to a better, more useable sports car that is shot through with Lotus feel and precision. Or it could lead to the gradual erosion of the things that make Lotus special and different. Road car design operates in a narrow window. A car maker’s focus and priorities are what distinguishes them from their competitors. 

Adding tech is a given, no-one’s arguing against that. But it seems the ambition of many is just for Lotus to catch up. Shouldn’t we be expecting radical innovation from Lotus with access to a big development budget? A game changer that no-one else could make? Or perhaps a radical step change in quality control and build quality (perceived and actual)? With a focus shifted to connectivity and interior tech my concern is that we won’t get any great innovation in areas that affect driving dynamics. You may take the view that Lotus doesn’t need improvements in that area but standing still here feels like a missed opportunity. There does not appear to be an ambition to surpass the GT430 as a driver’s car. The focus now is to surpass its daily usability. I would argue the GT410 already does that but doesn’t appear to transforming Evora sales. Exige has considerably less daily usability and practicality yet continues to outsell Evora.

[Bibs]

They've not repurposed every engineer into car stereos and cubby holes. Lotus still have a large number of people in the driving dynamics sphere working on their cars going forward, and they're in the main the same people who have worked on previous cars so as mentioned in the video, the focus will always be foremost on the driving dynamics of the cars. Yes, they are trying to address the reasons the car volumes aren't reaching the potential that they should have over the years, but they aren't making them all ride like Range Rovers. 

[The Pits]

Precisely why all hopes lie with the continued involvement of the likes of Russell Carr and Gavan Kershaw. Not the new greasy pole climbers from JLR. Nobody apart from Rolls Royce perhaps is making cars 'for the passengers' so I don't get much reassurance from something that could be said of any performance car company.

I have some great stories of some of the things the engineers did to preserve some Lotus attributes against JMG's instructions but perhaps too soon for a public forum. Where there's a will, there's a way!

[C8RKH]

I don't think people are saying at all that we don't want seat belts, or "good infotainment systems" (for the record I have never had an issue with the infotainment systems in my Evoras and am still at a loss as to why people complain about them or pay extra as you will never get "quality" sound in a car!  You will get better, but never real quality so why pay thousands more for it?). I also don't think people want exactly what we have now or are anti-change or stuck in the 50's/60's. That's just a stupid argument to be honest.  I do think people want different, BUT, they don't want the baby thrown out with the bath water. So that means new models, new packaging BUT with the same focus on drivers, driving dynamics, handling and NOT on trying to out Bentley Bentley or out Range Rover Range Rover.  The emphasis from the people on that Q&A video did not, for some on here, radiate the enthusiasm or passion "for the drivers" and I don't see anything wrong in that being called out.  By all means, celebrate the fact that cars have seat belts and ipads and great infotainment systems, but that is not, I would argue, why the majority on here follow Lotus or buy Lotus.

The elephant in the room is that people keep coming back to well the current models are not selling in enough volume, or the current approach is not delivering the sales. I would strongly suggest and argue that it doesn't bloody well take a rocket scientist to work out that if no one knows about your products, if no one knows they exist, if no one knows how great they drive, then why are you surprised that no one drives them or buys them?  How many times on the "People's reaction to your Elise/Exige/Evora" threads do we hear, time and time again, how people are stopped at the shops and garages and the most common comments are:

1. Wow, a Lotus, I did not know they were still around / making cars

2. An Evora? Never heard of it, never knew Lotus made a car like that I always thought they just made those skateboards with engines (e.g. Elise)

3. Wow, Lotus does a four seater, I can get kids in the back of that?

4. Wow, they use Toyota engines and gearboxes, they'll be really reliable then? (or from Coxster owners, "How's your Camry?")

I would strongly suggest that the reason the Evora has not sold is because Lotus, and the Evora, does not and has not resonated with the general public as they know bugger all about it, that it even exists.  So, there's the issue. The engineers create wonderful cars but let's be frank here now, for 10 years or more, Lotus marketing has been complete and utter shite. Practically non existent. Poorly targeted and executed. Totally under funded and under appreciated by the "management".  So given this, how surprised are we that more people do not buy a Lotus? What's the biggest complaint from the States?  Lack of dealers. Poor dealers. No marketing. Little or poor factory backup or owners and models that are not sold in the US. The owners of there love their Lotus cars, The Evora owners on places like LotusTalk are hugely enthusiastic about their cars. The tuning scene in the US is huge compared to anywhere else. Some of the best aftermarket products are coming out of the US. Just imagine with a decent dealer network, good factory backup, and reasonable marketing and ask yourself WHY Lotus could not sell 5k cars a year in a market of almost 300m people!

My own case. 6 years ago I never even knew the Evora existed and I considered myself a petrolhead and had mates and colleagues who had Elise's, but no one, even then, ever spoke about the Evora.  By chance I went past the Edinburgh Lotus dealers forecourt on a tram and saw a red Evora NA and my eyes dropped off their stalks. 24 hours later that car was mine! I'd always lusted after an Esprit Turbo, but this new, modern Lotus was just wow.

6 years later, I fire up a presentation at work/clients and the current Evora jumps on to the screen as it is my background. EVERY TIME it gets a response. The number of "petrolheads" who are just wowed by it. never knew it existed, never knew what it was. And the ladies. Blimey, never had ladies comment on a car before the way they do on the Evora.

SO, what's the issue? It ain't the engineering. It ain't the driving dynamics. It ain't the lack of cupholders or a decent stereo etc. First and foremost it is because too few people just know anything above modern Lotus or its cars - aside of course from the aficionado's on here which probably represents at least 60% of UK&I Lotus owners! Well, that's my humble opinion anyway.

[Redwing]

For once, @C8RKH, I completely agree with what you are saying!

[stephenwhyte]

33 minutes ago, Redwing said:

For once, @C8RKH, I completely agree with what you are saying!

And me!😉

[blindside]

Very well articulated Andy! Your comments entirely reflect my ownership experience & current views around where Lotus are probably headed based on all the evidence so far. 👍

[C8RKH]

 

3 hours ago, Redwing said:

For once, @C8RKH, I completely agree with what you are saying!

3 hours ago, stephenwhyte said:

And me!😉

 

Maybe Lotus will be give me a job lol!

[Frickin_idiot]

7 hours ago, Bibs said:

They've not repurposed every engineer into car stereos and cubby holes. Lotus still have a large number of people in the driving dynamics sphere working on their cars going forward, and they're in the main the same people who have worked on previous cars so as mentioned in the video, the focus will always be foremost on the driving dynamics of the cars. Yes, they are trying to address the reasons the car volumes aren't reaching the potential that they should have over the years, but they aren't making them all ride like Range Rovers. 

We have similar trains of thought. I am looking forward to the injection of cash and the new models that Lotus introduce. 
 

Lotus have always nailed the driving dynamics, what they have missed the mark on is now having the necessary expertise and development put into it. I don’t believe that they will lose focus and I’m sure that the new car will be a belter!

[Neal H]

I have no doubt that the new car will be a belter! The Evora 4xx are all belters, the Exige is an extraordinary sports car and the Elise is still unsurpassed as a driving machine after 25 years. But still almost no one buys them. I agree that it is because almost no one knows about them or their qualities. I can only hope that the Lotus marketing machine is poised and ready to spring into overdrive when it’s launched.

We all know that there’s no money to be made hand building a few £50k sports cars,  hand building 5000 six figure sports cars is probably a different matter though, which is exactly where McLaren sit and where Lotus must be heading in my opinion, which means that the typical customer profile is going to have to change which sadly excludes me, but that’s okay if it means Lotus survives and thrives. There’s loads of good options on the used market 😀

I believe Lotus are deliberately ignoring the current cars as they play no part in the future.

[The Pits]

Senseless to wait until the new car launch before starting to talk to potential customers. Lexus starting promoting the company's philosophy long before you could buy an LS400. The Relentless Pursuit of Perfection campaign was based on the Japanese principle of Kaizen (continuous improvement). The thought that went into that first car was incredible. Just one example - an engineer called Ichiro Suzuki devised an anti-aging program to ensure the quality and longevity of components and finishes. The ambition was that a 50,000 mile LS400 should feel, sound and drive exactly like a brand new one. Most would say he achieved that. Things like this were promoted in a terrific print campaign, paving the way towards launch. Like Lotus does now, Toyota had a huge hill to climb to convince anyone that a Japanese car could match and even surpass the best European saloons. This was the late 80s remember, Japanese cars were of thought more like Chinese or Korean cars today. They worked tirelessly with the ambition of making the best luxury saloon in the world and they told people what they had done in an engaging way. It's a fascinating story. They put the ground work in, built a brand from scratch and reaped the rewards.

But as you point out, perhaps they consider spending time and money on educating people about what's great about the current cars to be counter productive. There seems to be a strong desire to distance themselves from the fantastic cars that have taken the company to this point. Didn't work out well for Bahar either.