Coronavirus

[andydclements]

@C8RKH I see @sailorbob 's POV. The government have the control over supply contracts, not the NHS trusts. the government have set the schedule for first dose eligibility, not the NHS trusts. The post mentions the government in the context of the second part of the posts (the bit about government focussing on first dose mentality, the first part about missed calls to cancel, may simply be positioning by Sailorbob as to why he was even at the place.

I do agree with @PaulCP 's point that it may be local supply, but any supply chain has to have slack in it to cope with fluctuations, delays, mis-deliveries, or else it has to be perfect and be able to 100% predict patient bookings, so it could be local supply issue or it could be a wider issues, it's insufficient info to judge that but as we've not seen the press screaming about supl=ply issues all over the country, the view of it being localised seems fair.  

[Chillidoggy]

My wife got a text from our GP surgery to tell her to go for the vaccination. Age 58, no underlying health conditions. Me? 62 with underlying health conditions, no text. She managed to get me booked in when she went for her jab.

I called the surgery, “You haven’t got a mobile phone”, was the answer. I’ve had a mobile phone for over 20 years, it’s the same number as I’ve always had, and have received numerous tests and calls from the surgery in the past.

It turned out to be an “issue with the software programme’.  

[thebartman]

Why doesn't everyone who wants either A) A 1st Jab or B) Wants a second jab just go to any "local" area where the indiginous community don't want a jab ?

Maybe "Sir Keir" could walk in front of the line of potential recipients with a Red Flag ???  

[C8RKH]

@andydclements I get you trying to be the voice of reason. But here is why "just blaming the government" really pisses me off. My source for this is the BMJ - so should be acceptable to most people as not government biased. Look at the bold, underlined bits, and then calm me down re the justification of saying "Here's a nice example of the government's ineptitude". Instead of comments like this we should be thanking our lucky stars for having a bloody government that had the right intention and the right priority - to protect it's people. But heh, it's just so easy to blame "the government".

in June 2020, the UK signed a contract for 100 million doses of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine.4 A separate deal securing access to 30 million doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was announced the next month. This was increased to 40 million doses in October.5 “They’ve got ahead on ordering vaccines and they’ve got [the doses in hand] to give,” says Simon Clarke, associate professor in cellular microbiology at the University of Reading. “It’s as simple as that.”

Pascal Soriot, chief executive of AstraZeneca, has said that the early orders were a reason why deliveries to the UK have not been held up in the same way as those to the European Union. Batches of vaccine must be made up months in advance, and because cell cultures are used in the manufacturing procedure, the exact yield is unknown until each process is complete. The UK’s deal was struck three months before the EU’s, so its batches were set in motion earlier and separate to those earmarked for the EU, the yield of which turned out lower.6

The UK’s hefty vaccine orders were made in part thanks to the 2011 film Contagion. Health secretary Matt Hancock was spooked by the ending of the film, in which countries ravaged by a respiratory disease are left fighting for a limited number of vaccine doses. He insisted on ordering 100 million Oxford-AstraZeneca doses despite receiving advice to order a mere 30 million.

Since May 2020 the taskforce, consisting of experts in science, technology, and logistics, has secured orders from seven different vaccine manufacturers—a total of 400 million doses or enough to vaccinate the entire UK population three times over. In an interview with La Repubblica7 Bingham said that her team placed emphasis on sourcing vaccines that could be used as early as 2020. “We weren’t choosing vaccines on the basis of being cheap [but on] being effective and available quickly,”

Different parts of the UK are approaching the priority group cohorts in roughly the same way, with GPs focusing on older patients and hospitals acting as hubs for the vaccination of health workers.

[100th_Idiot]

1 hour ago, Chillidoggy said:

My wife got a text from our GP surgery to tell her to go for the vaccination. Age 58, no underlying health conditions. Me? 62 with underlying health conditions, no text. She managed to get me booked in when she went for her jab.

I called the surgery, “You haven’t got a mobile phone”, was the answer. I’ve had a mobile phone for over 20 years, it’s the same number as I’ve always had, and have received numerous tests and calls from the surgery in the past.

It turned out to be an “issue with the software programme’.  

That's private enterprise efficiency for you

[Barrykearley]

I see Germany have limited the use of AZ again. Great, super, fab - they won’t want any more then.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56580728

[andydclements]

7 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

@andydclements I get you trying to be the voice of reason. But here is why "just blaming the government" really pisses me off. My source for this is the BMJ - so should be acceptable to most people as not government biased. Look at the bold, underlined bits, and then calm me down re the justification of saying "Here's a nice example of the government's ineptitude". Instead of comments like this we should be thanking our lucky stars for having a bloody government that had the right intention and the right priority - to protect it's people. But heh, it's just so easy to blame "the government".

I'd say that if the supply chain cannot maintain second doses at the rate we had 1st doses 12weeks earlier, then we can blame the lack of contingency stock for certainty of second doses on the government's lust for the figures of first doses, but hopefully that will not become a problem (unless the EU find a way to make it one). The BMJ does look to predict political and logistical supply problems, and so that's why I think there is that first-dose-figure lust that some blame can be made.

 

I completely agree that the overall supply is impressive, and wouldn't knock them for that in the slightest. It was impressive that they seemingly went above 100% need, making an assumption that not all suppliers will deliver all orders. The initial reaction to the pandemic seemed slow meaning it had to be harder when it hit, but for the vaccination programme (including initial funding of research) they seem to have excelled, learning from earlier lessons.

[Barrykearley]

There’s some very intense studies currently looking at the benefits of giving different vaccines for the second dose. This would possibly explain the roll out and the getting vaccines into as many as possible.

It’s also worthy of note that vaccine protection doesn’t last forever and breaking the cycle is of stronger strategic importance in fighting this virus .

[PaulCP]

23 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

I see Germany have limited the use of AZ again. Great, super, fab - they won’t want any more then.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56580728

Another interesting view here. Will the EU’s attitude eventually backfire and they become the bad guys if the ‘vaccine for the world’ is pulled

AstraZeneca vaccine - was it really worth it? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56570364

[Barrykearley]

The EU are a disgrace full stop. Rammed full of corruption and are only interested in smothering home nation’s cultural identities. Pretty much all that Adolf Hilter aspired to do.

[Colin P]

2 hours ago, andydclements said:

 

but any supply chain has to have slack in it to cope with fluctuations

Disagree with this. The Pfizer vaccine in particular once removed from ultra cold storage needs to be used or it is wasted. Given the importance of the vaccines, better a few wasted journeys and reschedules than wasted vaccine. 

[andydclements]

No. The slack can still be at ultra-low temps.

[C8RKH]

40 minutes ago, andydclements said:

I'd say that if the supply chain cannot maintain second doses at the rate we had 1st doses 12weeks earlier,

Look again at the table I put up please. 24 Jan - 1.5m FIRST doses.  14 March - 1.3m SECOND doses.  Time elapse = 7 weeks and we are at what, 87% of 1st dose levels with another 5 weeks of ramp up for the 12 week promise limit!  Seems pretty much on track at that point to me!!!  I really don't understand why the people of the UK are not heaping praise on this level of performance, but instead, looking for reasons to talk down the achievement!  Christ, it's like being back on the VX220 forum where every owner is talking down the value of their car!

 

[Colin P]

20 minutes ago, andydclements said:

No. The slack can still be at ultra-low temps.

The vaccine has a shelf life once removed from ultra low temp storage. The vaccine sites do not all have the ultra low temp storage facilities, therefore they have to use what they have and not hold reserves. Keeping extra doses at this point in the supply chain, even to offset a single missed delivery, would result in wastage. 

[SFO]

2 hours ago, andydclements said:

certainty of second doses on the government's lust for the figures of first doses,

 I think there is that first-dose-figure lust that some blame can be made.

JCVI recommended the 12 week interval. Makes perfect sense to offer good protection to many instead of better protection to far fewer in the 1st few months of the vaccination campaign. Studies have shown that 12 week gap offers the same, if not better, protection as the 3 or 4 week gap.

Government Ministers have repeatedly said that we have enough supply in the pipeline to do the 2nd doses within the 12 week gap - this is against the background of the continuing EU export ban threats.

it's not "lust", it's pure good common sense, backed up by independent scientific advice, in the overall national interest. Nothing about it says "lust". It's the sort of characterisation Von der Lying would use.

to arrive at your "lust" conclusion on the basis of a single report on this forum of the unavailability of a second dose is a total over reaction. 

2 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

The EU are a disgrace full stop. Rammed full of corruption and are only interested in smothering home nation’s cultural identities. Pretty much all that Adolf Hilter aspired to do.

To be fair, Germany's decision to restrict AZ to over 60s has nothing to with Von der Lying and her troops. 

[andydclements]

9 hours ago, Colin P said:

The vaccine has a shelf life once removed from ultra low temp storage. The vaccine sites do not all have the ultra low temp storage facilities, therefore they have to use what they have and not hold reserves. Keeping extra doses at this point in the supply chain, even to offset a single missed delivery, would result in wastage. 

@Colin P don't be ridiculous, I've said within the supply chain, it''s you that keeps assuming it has to be at the final point.

[andydclements]

9 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Look again at the table I put up please. 24 Jan - 1.5m FIRST doses.  14 March - 1.3m SECOND doses.  Time elapse = 7 weeks and we are at what, 87% of 1st dose levels with another 5 weeks of ramp up for the 12 week promise limit!  Seems pretty much on track at that point to me!!!  I really don't understand why the people of the UK are not heaping praise on this level of performance, but instead, looking for reasons to talk down the achievement!  Christ, it's like being back on the VX220 forum where every owner is talking down the value of their car!

 

You missed/ignored the single most pertinent word in my statement which is "IF", so your response is completely off the point of my post, IF they have a problem and so cannot keep up with the c12 weeks (I strongly doubt that it's a cliff-effect at 12weeks and looses efficacy at 12w but was fine at 11.8 weeks) then there's a problem, but the government are being driven by getting that count as high as possible for how many have had a single jab.

[C8RKH]

Nope. You missed my points @andydclements which is let's focus on the positive progress being made for mass benefit, rather than trying to undermine these efforts 

We just have a different view on this. Mine is to applaud the Governments efforts to proactively get ahead of this for the benefit of all 

Any supply issues that may occur due to the aggressive actions of the EU to divert from their ineptitude is not down to our Government.

HOwever all of this may be moot given the pictures of the complete fooktards who on day 1 of release from the lockdown thought the best reaction would be to flood the parks in places like Nottingham. Get pissed. And start fighting. I sometimes do wonder why the Government bothers to try to protect us.

COvid has evidenced just how self obsessed, entitled and selfish many people in this country are 

[Colin P]

1 hour ago, andydclements said:

@Colin P don't be ridiculous, I've said within the supply chain, it''s you that keeps assuming it has to be at the final point.

Andy. The original comment was about one person whose vaccine centre ran out and where you cannot have slack in the supply chain at this point without wastage. Hence you are the one that is missing the point.
 

Your replies have been abrupt and borderline rude. I shan’t respond to you again, frankly there are respectful people to converse with. 

[sailorbob]

15 hours ago, C8RKH said:

what does this have to do with the Government?

The government is responsible for the procurement and distribution of the vaccines. Using the data provided by the local health authorities on the number of 1st and 2nd vaccine doses administered the government knows how much is required and where to supply it.

15 hours ago, C8RKH said:

You say they had called her to reschedule but she didn't recall it as she has Alzheimer's. So is that the Governments fault too?

I never said it was and whilst I am naturally annoyed by it my main gripe is that they have run out. And, yes, the vaccination centre are aware of my mothers condition and have been since the before her 1st dose.

15 hours ago, C8RKH said:

So we have one good case, one bad case!

No, we have many more than one 'bad case'. Read what I said about being informed many people were being turned away due to the lack of the Pfizer vaccine. Someone also told me today that one of their relatives has had their original appointment cancelled because of this.

[Neal H]

It still sounds like a local issue rather than a national one. My parents have their second jab appointment booked for Friday which is within the 12 week window. The local GP practice called them a couple of days ago to book it.

So far I have nothing but praise for our local GP vaccination centre (and the national effort), who have been incredibly well organised and efficient in getting it done. I’ll report back if their appointment is cancelled.

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, sailorbob said:

The government is responsible for the procurement and distribution of the vaccines. Using the data provided by the local health authorities on the number of 1st and 2nd vaccine doses administered the government knows how much is required and where to supply it.

Actually they are not. They hand it to an executive agency to administer. Splitting hairs maybe but the government has made the funds available for the procurement of over 400m doses of vaccine for 65m people. Do the maths. They did their bit. The executive agencies were responsible for taking that and procuring the vaccines and then distributing them. The GP surgery's were largely responsible for scheduling the jabs, not the Government.

You might think it is splitting hairs, but I think it is important to hold the right people to account, not the convenient easy target.

3 hours ago, Colin P said:

Your replies have been abrupt and borderline rude. I shan’t respond to you again, frankly there are respectful people to converse with. 

That'll be me then, oh no wait, that's another Andy. Phew!!!  

Just having a cup of tea and a chocolate digestive. Bastard government couldn't be arsed to do that for me when they arranged for my jab. What a shower eh.....

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, sailorbob said:

I never said it was and whilst I am naturally annoyed by it my main gripe is that they have run out.

Are you sure of the facts there?  This would suggest otherwise as the number of 2nd doses are ramping up considerably. Maybe as @Neal H has pointed out it is a local issue only. In that case, not down to the Government but the local centres/GPs.

[sailorbob]

I doubt many people will distinguish between the government and an executive agency, especially as their staff are still civil servants. You will note I never said they have run out nationally. You seem determined to pick an argument and I guess the sarcasm in your various posts sums up your attitude to reasoned debate so I'm done with this thread.

[C8RKH]

Humbly it is YOU who seems intent on a broad brush "blame the government" agenda. You have presented hearsay and limited, local, experience as fact of failings on a broader national scale. I have tried to add fact based evidence with substantiated sources, as opposed to opinion, to fuel an intelligent debate.  I hardly think it is my actions that are picking an argument, but would humbly suggest your tone was the passive/aggressive source of the argument in the first place that back fired on you.

As to my sarcasm, that isn't part of the debate, more me taking the piss at others, and of myself, as I'm only human. 

I often find that when people who spout "hearsay" get "facts" thrown at them they quickly retort with a comment about the standard of debate. You see it on the telly all the time on programmes like question time, Andrew Neil etc and it is usually when politicians are trying to hide.