second thoughts?

[Simon Bateman]

1 hour ago, Beady said:

I had an Evora LE (6 yrs), S (2 yrs) and 400 (2 yrs) so i think i have done my research and love Lotus cars for handling and also rarity appeal.

I am not for one minute suggesting the V6 is a bad engine, far from it - it has generally proven to be reliable, reasonably economic and i agree the 400 sound is fantastic.

My concern is that such an old engine in a stunning brand new car just doesn't feel quite right.

There also seems to be a view that the drop out rate on initial deposits might be up to 30% so I am curious about the causes of this - what make people have second thoughts?

 

 

You clearly have good experience of the V6, but from your comments, it seems you are more concerned with its design age, rather than its overall performance.

Journos will always fill magazine paragraphs with whatever they want.

If it's a Porsche, they would write that it has the 'classic, high performing, proven engine from previous model'.  In a Lotus, it would have 'the same old V6 from a Camry'

But if the engine has good performance, sounds great, is ultra reliable and returns good mpg, isn't that the most important stuff to focus on?

[Barrykearley]

Sadly in the modern consumerist world we live in - it’s new that counts.  

[ramjet]

I was thinking about the power thing which keeps seeming to come up.

Maybe Lotus have started with lower power for a twofold reason.

1) Attract people to the car who may not have ever driven something this powerful.

2) Possibly the Emira is much more dynamically superior as far as the handling goes, that the power of the engine is even more useable for more of the time you are driving and so does not need to be some >430hp figure?

Everyone keeps saying that the way a Lotus handles, the way it makes you smile etc. are more important than 0~60 figures etc.

I am not saying that people should leave their deposits in place. To each their own.

If there is an expectation for people to finalise a deposit before being able to test drive the car, that causes a bit of a quandary.

I just hope that people that did have deposits in, drop out, don't then third guess themselves and want to hop back in line. That would be having them wait for a much longer time.

[bosshog]

I have a deposit but might still pull out or delay at least. I don't really want to spend 60-75K on a car thats just a weekend car and I already have an Elise for that which is a keeper for me. Not sure I could daily an Emira in winter . I tried in the Evora for a while, but it just doesn't feel up the task with dodgy boot release (and small volume/shape), water ingress in windows etc.  Also I really do need a 2+2 for the occasional kid run.

I definitely have concerns about LE quality issues - it just going to happen. Plus I really want to drive one first to see how it compares and ideally the i4 vs V6 as well. Finally I want a colour thats not on the LE cars and don't want/need all the options that come with the LE.

Regarding the V6 , having had an S and a 410 there is nothing wrong with it per se. My only real issue is the woeful lack of torque compared to its contemporaries. Even my old Golf Gti 'felt' just as quick as the 410 at legal speeds. I'm currently in a 991 S and it would feel a real step down in this department. Also the drivetrain is a bit agricultural at low speeds and very occasionally notchy.  

Just need to sit and drive in one to see if it wins me over.

[Evotion]

Sounds like you are looking at a delay then Wayne. It might be that you will not be able   to drive the V6 , never mind the i4, before you have to commit to the car.

Options:

• Speak to the dealer and see what can be done so that by releasing your current deposit that  you are put to the top of the queue for the next main run, which will likely have many more options.
• Keep the deposit and there might be a chance of making a bit of money selling your deposit on to somebody else next year who has more money than sense
• Buy the car, enjoy it for a month to see what you like and don't like about it and then sell it one for a small profit perhaps, due to vast demand

All maybes, but looking possible from the demand seen on other niche marques.

I suspect the long-term, daily 'driverability' of the new Emira might surprise you in a big way. They may have got in spot on.

In your position, being unbiased, I have to say that an older 911 for the same price seems sensible.

4 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

Sadly in the modern consumerist world we live in - it’s new that counts.  

This is true in general but we also have to go buy the demand stats which show close to a 50-50 choice on the engines so it looks like to does not matter to 'enough' buyers for Lotus to worry too much. I still see the V6 being stopped though, maybe right after the FE run, who knows.

I'm getting both and expecting the AMG i4 to be more 'fun' but it will 100% be the V6 that I keep if I had to sell one and the engine being a Toyota unit matters to me not one jot.

[Simon Bateman]

1 hour ago, bosshog said:

I have a deposit but might still pull out or delay at least. I don't really want to spend 60-75K on a car thats just a weekend car and I already have an Elise for that which is a keeper for me. Not sure I could daily an Emira in winter . I tried in the Evora for a while, but it just doesn't feel up the task with dodgy boot release (and small volume/shape), water ingress in windows etc.  Also I really do need a 2+2 for the occasional kid run.

I definitely have concerns about LE quality issues - it just going to happen. Plus I really want to drive one first to see how it compares and ideally the i4 vs V6 as well. Finally I want a colour thats not on the LE cars and don't want/need all the options that come with the LE.

Regarding the V6 , having had an S and a 410 there is nothing wrong with it per se. My only real issue is the woeful lack of torque compared to its contemporaries. Even my old Golf Gti 'felt' just as quick as the 410 at legal speeds. I'm currently in a 991 S and it would feel a real step down in this department. Also the drivetrain is a bit agricultural at low speeds and very occasionally notchy.  

Just need to sit and drive in one to see if it wins me over.

I'm not sure I'd agree that the V6 is 'woefully' short of torque.  I had an RX8 and the torque on that was woeful 😫

Clearly Lotus have had to manage the torque of the engine to work within the constraints of the gearbox, but IMO that's a reflection of the gearbox and not the engine.

To me, a supercharged engine feels closer to NA than it does to a Turbo, despite being forced induction. That gives a less stepped and a more linear performance.

My 320ps type R often feels quicker than the 400, but has around 10lbs/ft less torque, but as you said, they 'feel' quicker and turbo engines always do, because even the recent ones still have a small lag before the shove, but the sudden push is what we experience.

I think it comes down to what people want.  I've no doubt the AMG 4 pot will feel quicker than the V6. Around a track I'd expect the V6 to 'maybe' be slightly quicker, but in the end, its whether people want a large (ish) capacity engine, with an almost NA feel, or a 4 pot turbo that is not a million miles different to some of the better hot hatches currently available. 

 

[bosshog]

I’d say the supercharged V6 is exactly like a NA in terms of delivery. Shame the limiter wasn’t at 8.5k. I was constantly was bouncing off the limit on the 410. There will be nothing in them as you say but the i4 could well feel quicker even if it’s not. 
It would be the V6 manual for me 99% sure. 

[Evotion]

That drive in the Exige 410 Sport I had I assume was supercharged?

That car was very fast and there was not the slightest hint of any delay. Sounded epic too. Made it a mad car to drive and very thrilling.

Yes, the Emira is about 15% heavier but at 416HP it will still be a fast car.

[Likuid]

6 hours ago, ramjet said:

I was thinking about the power thing which keeps seeming to come up.

Maybe Lotus have started with lower power for a twofold reason.

1) Attract people to the car who may not have ever driven something this powerful.

2) Possibly the Emira is much more dynamically superior as far as the handling goes, that the power of the engine is even more useable for more of the time you are driving and so does not need to be some >430hp figure?

Everyone keeps saying that the way a Lotus handles, the way it makes you smile etc. are more important than 0~60 figures etc.

I am not saying that people should leave their deposits in place. To each their own.

If there is an expectation for people to finalise a deposit before being able to test drive the car, that causes a bit of a quandary.

I just hope that people that do have deposits in, don't then third guess themselves and want to hop back in line. That would be having them wait for a much longer time.

Honestly I think it has everything to do with Geely not wanting to invest into the powertrain much. Part of me thinks the only reason they are keeping the V6 is because of the manual option. If Geely gave Lotus the money to put a 500HP engine in the Emira I am sure Lotus would have. When it comes to ICE I think they are working with what they can. The power (or lack there of IMO) is the only reason my name isn't down for an Emira. I love everything else about it. While I doubt they will ever take the V6 beyond 430HP, here's hoping the AMG sees some higher numbers in the future. I may go and try some other non-Lotus cars for awhile and maybe come back home once the Emira matures a bit.

[TomE]

Yes, the Exige has the supercharged V6.  Lotus have done a great job in getting a very linear power delivery.  Some people would prefer a peak somewhere in the middle/upper end of the torque curve, to give that "oh my, it's accelerating even more" feeling.  But Lotus have chosen not to do that.

I understand from talking to various people that the AMG engine has quite a peaky torque curve in it's existing applications.  Lotus have said they're doing their own intake, exhaust and mapping on the AMG engine to meet their own requirements for driveability (and emissions and other stuff) and so that it "drives like a Lotus".  I suspect that means they've made it more linear torque-wise and hence perhaps there won't be as much difference between the driving feel of the Toyota and AMG as you might think - apart from the 56hp power difference.

[Simon Bateman]

38 minutes ago, Likuid said:

Honestly I think it has everything to do with Geely not wanting to invest into the powertrain much. Part of me thinks the only reason they are keeping the V6 is because of the manual option. If Geely gave Lotus the money to put a 500HP engine in the Emira I am sure Lotus would have. When it comes to ICE I think they are working with what they can. The power (or lack there of IMO) is the only reason my name isn't down for an Emira. I love everything else about it. While I doubt they will ever take the V6 beyond 430HP, here's hoping the AMG sees some higher numbers in the future. I may go and try some other non-Lotus cars for awhile and maybe come back home once the Emira matures a bit.

I think Lotus are a bit fixated with taking Cayman sales and as such, around 416ps is comparable with even a GT4.

The consensus seems to be that the engine as standard can be coaxed to around 475ps, which would then compete with a GT3, but thereafter, it would need 550ps + to be a true junior supercar.

In between 475ps and 550ps, it's sort of marooned between a rock and hard place in terms of market placement. 

Clearly at that point the investment required to source a new engine or modify the internals of the current one, just don't stack up.

[Evotion]

Makes sense.

I am still of the opinion that not only will they NOT try and get more power out of the V6 but they will drop it completely as soon as they can.

Anyway, my main issue here is that people keep using the term 'underpowered'.    

Yes, I'd love it to have a Pub Bragging right of 500hp but the car would be well over 100k as I see it with the changes required not to make the car a joke.

There are cheaper, more powerful cars and there are similarly priced cars with more power but this is the last ICE Lotus, looks the mutts nuts and will be S P E C I A L.

If you want mad power for the sake of it, get another car.  No way I am waiting 18 months on the 'chance' a more powerful version will come out.

368 to 416 is enough guys to enjoy the car.

 

[Barrykearley]

Folks are obsessed with bhp on the V6 - but the current manual gearbox is completely at its limits.

the i4 amg with the dct however……. Well - like it or not - that’s the future 

[IwantOne]

I don't understand this obsession with power. Its not surprising because that is what most manufactures have been promoting over the decades but in today's age what are you going to do with 5, 600, 700+ horsepower?

Press the loud pedal for two seconds and it's off to jail in most countries.

300 ~ 350hp, shorter gears and a 100kg less will probably give you a lot more fun in real life without having to do stupid speeds.

Won't give you bragging right numbers and I suppose you give up the fun of feeling all that power on the rare occasion you can you it but for me that is not much of a sacrifice for more everyday fun.

@Evotiondidnt Lotus already say they'll keep the v6 as long as they can? I don't see the point in putting all the engineering resources in the v6 only for the initial run of cars.

Btw I feel we had the same conversation before 😛

[Likuid]

 

2 hours ago, Simon Bateman said:

I think Lotus are a bit fixated with taking Cayman sales and as such, around 416ps is comparable with even a GT4.

The consensus seems to be that the engine as standard can be coaxed to around 475ps, which would then compete with a GT3, but thereafter, it would need 550ps + to be a true junior supercar.

In between 475ps and 550ps, it's sort of marooned between a rock and hard place in terms of market placement. 

Clearly at that point the investment required to source a new engine or modify the internals of the current one, just don't stack up.

The 311 used the same V6 with 450HP I believe, but used a sequential gearbox. I don't believe Lotus will take the V6 past 430HP in the Emira with the current gearboxes. Just because Komotec is squeezing 475HP out of it doesn't mean Lotus will. Lotus probably doesn't believe the engine and gearbox are reliable much past that point. Maybe they have something up their sleeve, but to my knowledge any change to the internals of the engine would require re-federalization which is expensive.

[glen8]

The first batch of cars does worry me, as does not seeing the colours in the flesh.

[E1M2I3R4A]

No plans to pull my deposit, but sound is main concern as assume Lotus will get the handling/feel right. Not a daily for me so do want the same (or close to same) drama as the current V6. Keen to see colours in the flesh but loved the blue at Goodwood, so that works for me if others don’t. 

[DaveC72]

I'm not having second thoughts about the car, but the buying experience is less than satisfactory.  Lotus have effectively gone radio silent since the launch, apart from some InstaFace posts with no new information. 

I wasn't in the Lotus world for the Evora launch and it seems this is nothing new, but the absence of updates is poor considering this is the company's big move to being a grown-up manufacturer. 

I get that things are difficult in manufacturer land right now - although not automotive, it's my reality - but there is a worrying and frustrating silence. 

No doubt someone will be along in a second to say, "well, MY dealer is keeping me up to date" etcetera etcetera, but that really is my point.  Consistency, messaging and communication to your customers should be at the heart of what any manufacturer is doing.  If you're in the inner circle, then I'm genuinely pleased for you.  The rest of us mere mortals need to get what scraps we can and hope for something soon.

[freefall_junkie]

I agree the silence after the initial launch is deafening and it does make Lotus marketing look a bit amateurish. If you have a load of people who have put deposits down but are not yet firmed up into orders, I'd have thought it would be common business sense to make sure those individuals are kept informed with regular updates to feed the enthusiasm and give a greater chance of them committing to buy. I am also a little frustrated that my local dealer still can't give dates for the roadshow, even though it is probably less than a month away. Many of us have busy lives and need to plan ahead around other work/family commitments. 

I am still very excited about the car, but Lotus have clearly still to get their sh1t together on the customer relations front. Plus ca change...

Edited to add: I wonder if anyone at Lotus looks at this forum and others like it to see what prospective buyers are thinking? 

Edited September 8, 2021 by freefall_junkie

[mg4lotus]

If I were Lotus marketing I would be getting input onto the forums to keep enthusiasm up amongst the deposit holders. All you need is a super enthusiast, I wonder if anyone on here fits that bill? 😄

[DaveC72]

21 minutes ago, freefall_junkie said:

 I am also a little frustrated that my local dealer still can't give dates for the roadshow, even though it is probably less than a month away. Many of us have busy lives and need to plan ahead around other work/family commitments. 

Very much with you here.  I've had very little from dealership, certainly nothing proactive.  I am almost certain by the time dates are confirmed it will be too late...

[mg4lotus]

Conversely, competing manufacturers will probably infiltrate to spread doom and gloom and encourage people to back out. A manufacturer I used to work for used to spy on competitors to get an inside handle on what they were doing. These things do happen.

[jimichanga]

You have to wonder… things have certainly  changed here since Emira launch. Porsche are super manipulative, so many of the youtubers are in new Porsches now, a number of them have admitted to not being into Porsches previously.

[Nick in Sydney]

1 hour ago, freefall_junkie said:

I agree the silence after the initial launch is deafening and it does make Lotus marketing look a bit amateurish. If you have a load of people who have put deposits down but are not yet firmed up into orders, I'd have thought it would be common business sense to make sure those individuals are kept informed with regular updates to feed the enthusiasm and give a greater chance of them committing to buy. I am also a little frustrated that my local dealer still can't give dates for the roadshow, even though it is probably less than a month away. Many of us have busy lives and need to plan ahead around other work/family commitments. 

I am still very excited about the car, but Lotus have clearly still to get their sh1t together on the customer relations front. Plus ca change...

Edited to add: I wonder if anyone at Lotus looks at this forum and others like it to see what prospective buyers are thinking? 

This is something Porsche seems to do well.  When I was waiting for my most recent car to be manufactured/delivered, they sent me a model of a Porsche 356 Speedster (complete with a small screwdriver to construct it) with a friendly note along the lines of "something to enjoy making while you wait for us to make your new car."  Costs them bugger all, but keeps the emotional connection going and builds goodwill.  Imagine how pleased people on the waiting list would be to receive a model Emira in the post?!!

Edited September 8, 2021 by Nick in Sydney

[Evotion]

I love that, Nick!  Great idea. Anything along those lines keeps the brand alive and forefront in the mind.

One can never take deposits as gospel - Porsche and other Marques are always putting their great products in front of you.