Is electric really the answer?

[exeterjeep]

Buyers play 'waiting game' for further used EV price drops

https://www.am-online.com/news/used-cars/2023/03/23/buyers-play-waiting-game-for-used-ev-price-drop

Some 40% of those looking for a used EV said they would wait up to 12 months before buying.

 

[Kimbers]

I don't think they will buy! It costs more to use one than an engine car, its less useable than a PHEV, they cost a lot more than the equivalent engined car, they don'[t warranty the batteries, they are excessively toxic to dispose of and more and more people are coming to realise all of this.

Now we are hearing "rumours" of extending the ban on petrol to 2035, Including Self and Plug in Hybrids in exclusions and quite a few manufacturers are looking at alternate sources to develop away from battery/Elec.

I genuinely think everyone who wants one has one. Those who have one have realised how extortionate they are to run fuel wise and for my daughter the main factor was crippling range anxiety. When I had one that was the main factor for me. That and the cost. My neighbour won't buy one again till shes forced to after her car is down to 80 mile range after 5 years and its worth £8k with an £8k bill to get new batteries. 

Nope. I think more and more people have realised everyone has been conned!

Edited March 23, 2023 by Bibs

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

I’m going to start a Law firm specialising in suing car manufacturers for mis-selling their products. Oh hang on…

[Rambo]

@Kimbers I think you summed it up in 1 word. The very last one of your posting above.

[Bibs]

6 hours ago, Kimbers said:

It costs more to use one than an engine car, its less useable than a PHEV, they cost a lot more than the equivalent engined car, they don'[t warranty the batteries,

I've done 26,000 miles and it's cost me less than £400 in electricity. An annual service is £85. The battery in my car has a 7 year, 100k mile warranty. 

It's a tool, it's not meant to do everything and if cars were, they'd only be 1 type of car for sale. If you don't do many motorway journies, EV's are very cheap to run on a daily basis. If you do a lot of motorway miles, buy a different car. 

[Kimbers]

If you can charge at home, yes its cheaper. If you are charging on motorways and pay as you go then no, its a third more expensive than Petrol. And you have a Kia. Their 7 year service is better than every other manufacturer. Most Companies only cover Batteries for 3 years.

HOWEVER, if you read the small print, "Natural degradation" is not covered by any manufacturer, even on KIA's. So if your Niro has a 50 mile range left in 5 years time even the 7 year warranty will not cover replacements.

[Rambo]

Did Germany just kill the e car?

https://www.energymonitor.ai/sectors/transport/did-germany-kill-the-electric-car/

[Bibs]

Charging away from home is extortionate, I avoid it at all costs and agree that home charging makes a massive, huge difference to the costs. When I was paying 4p/kwh overnight, my car was £2.56 to fill up. When Ionity etc went up to £1/kwh, it was £64, eg 25 times more expensive! Imagine if the services were charging £37.50/l of fuel, it's the same uplift! 

Battery degredation isn't so much of a thing nowadays, gone are the days of early Nissan Leafs. Mine still charges to 100% (282 miles) after 2.5 years/26k and even if it only charged to 50%, that's still a massively usable range if you only do local, town driving. 

[Kimbers]

Here's the Science

"The chemical makeup of the lithium-ion cells means that they start degrading from the moment they are made. When used in an electric car, the average degradation is 2.3% each year according to a study of 6,300 EVs by Geotab, a telematics company. Furthermore charging an EV battery to 100% will lead to a further reduction in the total usable capacity of the battery." And this from KIA themselves “Frequent use of DC Fast Charging and now newly described "Super Fast Charging" can negatively impact battery performance and durability even more than the normal degradation seen from chemical makeup, Kia recommends minimizing use of DC Fast Charging.

Some manufacturers see up to a 5% reduction per year and with the introduction of new "Supercharging" this may be as high as 7%.

[jonwat]

Interesting article on e-fuels and how are they made

[Rambo]

I don't have and e-car because a) I couldn't afford it and b) couldn't justify it on eco/enviro. terms.

But I do have an e-bike and, as good as it is, I do suffer from range anxiety, particularly when it is cold, windy and an uphill battle. However, even if you do lose all electic power you can still cycle home, unlike an e-car wher you're stuffed. But it's bloody hard work as an e-bike is twice as heavy, or more, than a normal road bike.

[Bibs]

In 26,000 miles I've not ran out of electricity. Pretty much the same reason as I've never ran out of petrol. 

[C8RKH]

21 hours ago, Kimbers said:

they are excessively toxic to dispose of and more and more people are coming to realise all of this.

I said all of this 3 years ago when I was arguing with a numbduck on here. Glad people are finally catching up/on......

[MPx]

2 hours ago, Kimbers said:

Here's the Science

...

It may be the science - or it may just be more internet misinformation, who knows?  I have a sample of 1 that does not conform to the stats declared.  2.3% battery degredation is probably not noticeable over one year, but our car is coming up for 5 years old and in useable range terms (ie how far it will go on a full charge) it has not changed in any noticable way over that time.  Still does 130 in the summer and 100 in winter.  According the those stats, it should have lost more than 12% compound by now.  Even this week doing short journeys in moderate temps I've done 50 miles and its telling me I've got over 70 left.   Maybe the real story is that batteries need careful/considered charger management and some cars do that whereas others are just set up to maximise the headline range and charge speed and ignore the consequences?

[C8RKH]

Typical thick entitled tw@t - I would not have been as "nice" as this "homeowner" was...

 

[Kimbers]

On 24/03/2023 at 17:33, MPx said:

It may be the science - or it may just be more internet misinformation, who knows?  I have a sample of 1 that does not conform to the stats declared.  2.3% battery degredation is probably not noticeable over one year, but our car is coming up for 5 years old and in useable range terms (ie how far it will go on a full charge) it has not changed in any noticable way over that time.  Still does 130 in the summer and 100 in winter.  According the those stats, it should have lost more than 12% compound by now.  Even this week doing short journeys in moderate temps I've done 50 miles and its telling me I've got over 70 left.   Maybe the real story is that batteries need careful/considered charger management and some cars do that whereas others are just set up to maximise the headline range and charge speed and ignore the consequences?

Whilst I don't disagree with you I have to point out that the figures are correct according to even the manufacturers. 

I also don't disagree with you. There is no doubt that fast Charging and now Supercharging can and will damage the batteries over time.

I must point out that myself and a huge % of the general public couldn't use a car with 130 mile range (100 in winter). Even an average workday I would be charging that car 3 times!!

[exeterjeep]

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/eu-adds-e-fuel-exemption-to-upcoming-ice-ban-following-complaints-by-italy-and-germany/281861

The EU has announced that vehicles running on synthetic e-fuels will be exempt from its upcoming ban on new ICE sales.

The bloc has been trying to push through the ban throughout this year but has been thwarted following complaints by both Italy and Germany.

 

[MPx]

6 hours ago, Kimbers said:

I must point out that myself and a huge % of the general public couldn't use a car with 130 mile range (100 in winter). Even an average workday I would be charging that car 3 times!!

...and I agree with you Tony.  Right car for the right application.  Twas ever thus:  Don't buy a city car (or even an old shape Defender) if you do a lot of motorway miles; don't buy a Bentley if £/mile is a key factor for you, don't buy an SUV as a track car, etc, etc.   A surprising % of the general public households have more than one car, and a surprising % do 6k miles or less a year.  As a low milage second car where home charging is available, EVs can be perfect.  As a 35kmiles/year repmobile even the Tesla LongRange models need a significant degree of evangelism to make sense.

[exeterjeep]

48 minutes ago, MPx said:

don't buy an SUV as a track car,

thought that this was my Eletre R.

[MPx]

Ha!   However fast it is in a straight line, I doubt that it will be as much fun on track as your GT430 Keith.

[Rambo]

From 11 April, people with e cars in Glasgow will be charged accordingly - see below. The once free service is costing Glesgae Cooncil too much money, not surprisingly 🤣

"Motorists who use the chargers will have to pay a £1 connection fee to use them.

They will then be charged 40p for every kilowatt hour (kWh) - which will give a motor a maximum of seven to 22kW of charge.

Charges for the rapid charging units is 70p per kWh and will give out max 50 to 150kW.

Drivers are also being slapped with time limits on when they can use the chargers depending on where they park"

[jonwat]

Fifth of cars must be electric from 2024 in UK’s net zero plan

Car makers will be forced to ensure that 22 per cent of their UK sales next year are electric as part of the government’s plans to “power up” Britain.

Ministers set out the long-awaited “electric vehicle mandate” this morning, with a flurry of environmental policy announcements expected today.

• Push to build turbines and ditch gas in dash for energy security
• EU waters down its ban on sales of petrol and diesel cars

The mandate on car sales will rise to 28 per cent in 2025, 80 per cent in 2030 and 100 per cent in 2035.

Grant Shapps, the energy security secretary, will unveil the full raft of measures today in what is being called the government’s “green day”.

[Kimbers]

Difficult to ensure 22 percent are Electric sales if only 5% want Electric cars! 

One thing many manufacturers know well is that you can't sell something if people don't want it!

[jonwat]

Electric car makers are advertising exaggerated vehicle ranges because the official testing regime does not accurately reflect real-world use, a large-scale study has found.

Independent testing of more than 70 electric vehicles shows that their actual range is nearly 20 per cent less on average than the figures put in manufacturers’ websites. That means an electric car claiming that it can go 240 miles is likely to achieve less than 200 miles before running out of power.

The testing, by the consumer group Which?, also found that the average electric car battery needs 15 per cent more power than advertised to become fully charged, meaning vehicles will cost more to run than expected.

Who'd have thought 

 

[NAC63]

Another future money maker for the solicitors