Radiator fan running in reverse: Eclat 523

[ThatsMrBowlheadtoyou]

3 apologies first: to those who have seen this on Facebook, if this has been covered before (I'm not sure I'm using the search function on here properly) and finally I'm going to have a rash of questions coming now my car is running. This is a project car bought as a collection of bits with no known history. So this is the 1st question:

-The 523 has 2 radiator fans. The primary fan is running in reverse whilst the secondary is running correctly. To be clear, this means the primary is pushing, whilst the secondary pulls. Any experience out there of this? 

-The original soldered bullet connector male/female plugs are there for both fans, to prevent accidental incorrect polarity connections!!

-I had to change both fan relays: 1 missing, the other corroded beyond recognition. I might have fitted the wrong type? The only wiring diagram I have, showing A/C and therefore 2 fans, is from the workshop manual is for a Federal spec car.  Wiring seems to match colours but...

 

[Escape]

The only way a fan can run in reverse, is if the polarity is reversed. If you are sure the bullet connectors are the right way 'round, that means the problem lies somewhere further in the loom.

A wrong relay can never reverse polarity, as it will only see 12V and even if it did manage to ground the feed line, the fan would not run at all.

My guess is the wires got mixed up somewhere in the loom, not unheard of in a project car. Should be easy enough to trace the wiring.

Filip

[ThatsMrBowlheadtoyou]

Thank you for clarity on the relays. I'd love to get the right wiring diagram but guess I'll have to work through without. Not my specialist subject! And the input of the A/C system into the fan operation complicates things for my small brain.

[Tony D]

Many (most) bullet connectors are bullets on both wires and a sleeve with a rubber shroud connecting them.

My guess is it's just the easiest ( or not pushed in properly if a tool wasn't used on assembly) that comes out first and it looks like you have polarised male / female connectors when in fact you probably haven't.

Good luck with your running reports. Keep em coming. And pictures.

[Escape]

It's not that complicated, the A/C just provides a secondary input to the fan relay, in parallel with the Otter-switch.

This is for an Elite, but should be identical for the Eclat as well. If you need a higher resolution, just let me know.

Filip

[ThatsMrBowlheadtoyou]

2 hours ago, Tony D said:

Many (most) bullet connectors are bullets on both wires and a sleeve with a rubber shroud connecting them.

My guess is it's just the easiest ( or not pushed in properly if a tool wasn't used on assembly) that comes out first and it looks like you have polarised male / female connectors when in fact you probably haven't.

Good luck with your running reports. Keep em coming. And pictures.

Thank you. For the fans they are double connectors, male and female and staggered side by side so idiot proof to connect them.  I'd post a photo but not got one to hand. I'll do a full update when I solve it!

1 hour ago, Escape said:

It's not that complicated, the A/C just provides a secondary input to the fan relay, in parallel with the Otter-switch.

This is for an Elite, but should be identical for the Eclat as well. If you need a higher resolution, just let me know.

Filip

OOH that's what I need!! That looks like my wiring unlike the Federal diagram. I'd be grateful for a high resolution copy (for all the other 523/503 wiring too).  If it's better to send direct my email is h#########@gmail.com.

[Tony D]

Thank you. For the fans they are double connectors, male and female and staggered side by side so idiot proof to connect them. I'd post a photo but not got one to hand. I'll do a full update when I solve it!

 

I know what you mean now. A double molding with male / female output.

They'll be a swopped line further up stream then. Should definitely both run same direct on pull air through. 

[Gray14]

'Scuse me jumping in, just been looking at this on mine, and have pics, below plug and socket. Live adjacent the square bit.

[EXCEL V8]

Different plugs on the earlier cars Graham.

Pete

[ThatsMrBowlheadtoyou]

Just to be clear, attached is a photo of the plug type. The observant will spot different wire colours to each: top pair are to the primary fan, bottom 4 paired are from the wiring loom. I need to change 1 relay for sure: it's a 4 pin whereas the wiring diagram (thanks Escape) shows 2 x 5 pins.  Not sure what difference that will make but I want to get it just right for now.

Edited July 18 by ThatsMrBowlheadtoyou

[Escape]

Where do you see a 5-pin relay on the wiring diagram? I just checked and they are in fact 4-pin for both the AC relay and cooling fan relay. Some pins will have multiple wires going to them though, either for daisy chaining or because there are 2 separate inputs (Otter switch and AC request).

Looking at your picture, I'm surprised the connector on the wiring loom has a male for the feed and a female for ground. Usually it's the other way around, as that gives less chance of a short should the connector be unplugged. I can't verify on a similar car, but certainly something worth investigating as it would explain things.

[ThatsMrBowlheadtoyou]

Attached: I count 5 pins to each but only 4 connections used on each? (some multiwired as you say)

[Denis247]

Are both fans the originals, and both 'pullers' (pull air through the rad)?, it's possible you may have a 'pusher' and that it has been wired in reverse to make it more a 'puller'. Take a look at the fanblades to check they both twist the same way to make sure. 

[ThatsMrBowlheadtoyou]

Hi Denis, thanks for your input. The fans are identical, the blades are identical. the primary runs clockwise, pushing whilst the secondary runs anti-clockwise pulling. The primary was already fitted on the car whilst the secondary is a replacement from an Elite: the previous was seized. I'm not aware that any Eclat/Elite/Esprit had 'pusher' fans but I'm no expert of course!

Edited July 18 by ThatsMrBowlheadtoyou

[Denis247]

2 hours ago, ThatsMrBowlheadtoyou said:

Hi Denis, thanks for your input. The fans are identical, the blades are identical. the primary runs clockwise, pushing whilst the secondary runs anti-clockwise pulling. The primary was already fitted on the car whilst the secondary is a replacement from an Elite: the previous was seized. I'm not aware that any Eclat/Elite/Esprit had 'pusher' fans but I'm no expert of course!

Just wondered if an odd possibly non-Elite fan had been fitted. Seen this where people have fitted the low-profile fans and have used odd ones. I use a pair myself but made sure they were both pullers.Just got to find best way to reverse the wires to the fan spinning the wrong way.

Edited July 18 by Denis247

[Escape]

I had another look and there is indeed one diagram (p34) that shows 5-pin relays, although only the AC request actually uses it as a switchover. To prevent the AC and heated rear screen to be operated at the same time. Fair enough. The other diagrams just use 4-pin relays. The wire colors in your picture don't match the diagram on P34 (BY to the fans), so I would use p26 instead (BG to the fans). If you do need a 5-pin for the AC, make sure it is a changeover relay, as there are also 5-pin relays that have the central pin as a second, parallel output. In any case, it cannot explain your issue.

In all the diagrams both fans are wired in parallel. So if one fan is running correctly, logic dictates the other one is wired wrong. Or the wrong type, as Denis suggests. If you have a digital voltmeter (and if not, get one, invaluable when doing elektrickery!), check if the BG wire goes to the relay. If it does, I'd simply reverse the wiring on the primary fan and be done with it. 

 

[ThatsMrBowlheadtoyou]

Thanks again Filip. It's all a bit fuzzy isn't it? Whilst my fan feed is BG not BY, everything else matches the P34 diagram far more closely: for example both relay connector blocks are set up for 5 pin relays rather than 4 pin, also I have the inline diode on the S wire between the 2 -which is not on the P26 wiring.  There are other colour inconsistencies... BUT never mind because I have fixed it! 

You, Tony and co. are on the right track. So I swapped out various relays: no change. I checked all the wiring to/from relays matches P34 -being the closest diagram. No change. I ran the multimeter across some to check consistency with the diagram.  Finally I swapped the fan connectors over from one to the other: still no change. So that means the polarity to the fans is the same through each connector (correctly in parallel). So having eliminated all the possible wiring queries to/from relays, it could only mean the fan itself is wired incorrectly, inside the fan. See the attached: it turns out the connections into the fan are simply spade connectors under the rubber splash seal, rather than hard wired which I expected. So it's a 30 second job to pull them and reverse them -problem solved! And that must have been what someone did previously; re-connect the wires the wrong sides.  Too easy to get wrong.

Edited July 20 by ThatsMrBowlheadtoyou
typo

[Escape]

I did not expect spade connectors on the fan motor! But an obvious cause.

Good job figuring this out!

Filip