412 BHP...THAT WILL DO NICELY......

[Mike6]

Fantastic set up. but not sure why you would want that performance on our crowded, potholed and 30mph restricted roads, or is that just here in the SE. Personally I would be happy for with 50bhp but then my car is in bits and I am just a tad envious

[karmavore]

I really have no idea why and where I came across as obnoxious, except in my response to GKP, who stared it with his silly criticism. To my mind establishing how the 412 number was derived is critical to understand what it really "means".

Anyway, I'm afraid we'll never get to the bottom of what really got Dave to 412. My hunch is 80% of it is the boost. Heck, I got 330 HP on a Mustang Dyno running at 20psi, just as Dave.

I'd say that puts me within 20-30HP of Dave's 412, assuming a drive line loss of 50hp.

What I want to know now is what size injectors Dave is running, and how many -- 4 or 6? The other key the the turbo size and spec.

But yeah, thanks for putting up with us Dave!

I'd call Artie and I "skeptical but hopeful". We want it to be true, but we're scientists and it's our job to challenge results!

Edited May 2, 2011 by karmavore

[Artie]

Well the first page holds the injector size at 800's and he mentioned ditching the secondary injectors so my guess is 4 800cc mains and no secondaries.....

[karmavore]

Missed that, thanks Artie.

800 is big. I wonder how the delco would idle with primaries that big.

[CHANGES]

Thanks for the great comments..

Artie . on the ECU side of things ...i looked into all the chips available , and then did research... it became very quickly apparent that a chip will boost your power but it was limited by the ECU itself...There was also some evidence that the power gains could be at the cost of engine life term... depending what mod's were or were not fitted.....

I then looked into piggy back ECU.....this was a better option a bit more expensive but research found some area's to consider....The first is the original ECU is actually a pretty good unit , though limited, but is not keen on sharing its data with another. this would cause signal chatter between the two making it a nightmare to dyno and temperamental thereafter. also the Esprit trigger wheel is not recognized by other ECU's .

I then came to the decision to adopt the stand alone unit , the most expensive to install , but massive benefits....

During my research i was informed that some of the factory GT cars ran the Motec stand alone system stealthily installed to look like a Delco unit......is that how they got 400 + i wonder ..IF anyone out there has info on this we would love to here it....

Once i had committed to this line i first had to get past the Trigger wheel issue . the Lotus esprit one does not conform to standard configuration . so something had to be made , once again research ......after talking to several people including an ex development engineer from the factory , Who may i say confirmed i was on the right track, i was put in touch with someone who had made a batch of 36-1 trigger wheels for some rally 900 series engines . he had a couple left over and very kindly sold me one...

Armed with all this info i then had to find a reputable company to fit all the electrics in .plus set it up... research kept throwing up one name. within reasonable distance . N'hampton motor sport...still 1.5 hrs away but highly recommended......

Before doing anything i drove the Esprit down to them for an appraising. they liked what they saw , BUT said that the 2.5 '' quick silver exhaust I had fitted was too small, to get the best out of the engine they wanted a 3.5'' straight through system as minimum . I also bounced an idea off them about enlarging the plenum chamber, This idea was passed to me by forum member John Lescaud ( MrDanger US) who has lots of ideas for possible tuning mod's......They totally approved and suggested installing it to help top end capability and for more even air flow to cylinders 1-4

This work i did before they had the Esprit......

Pics of Trigger wheel on back of front pulley.. And plenum chamber spacer plate. increasing capacity buy circa 60 cu in

[dodge1979]

Well top end figures aside, as were all passionate about the car we drive (except I havent driven mine yet) I must say all the help knowledge and general chitty chat Dave has shared with me over the months has been a reassurance to my rebuild. One day Im sure Ill get over to have a looksee! Dyno dissagreements included Ive found this to be one of the most interesting threads Ive read recently!

Darren

[CHANGES]

Hi Lucas,

You scientist , me engineer. we always end up with the same result , but usually by different methods.... who cares as long as we get there... I value your input....no offence taken...

The 4 x 800 injectors will not work with Delco unit...Far to rich at tick over.....

The advantage is consistent fuel delivery throughout the rev range no lumps and bumps on the graph when the secondaries come in......

Unfortunately the new ECU is needed to operate them ...

second advantage is they can be independently tuned to each chamber to smooth small anomalies....

third advantage is Sequential injection.....one squirt rather than two on each cycle....no fuel beading on top of the valve between strokes just one quality injection when needed..this gives a much stronger burn and also reduces the HC level . also means you can use double the size injectors for same job.... ...

Edited May 2, 2011 by CHANGES

[sailorbob]

Good stuff Dave, very keen to hear more about the modifications you've done

Just to clarify things though regarding the Delco ecu; it is more than capable of handling large injectors (see the excellent work the guys at code59.org have done with essentially the same type of ecu). The limitations are more related to the lack of knowledge about programming it and the need to re-write extensive parts of the code to handle pressures above 2 bar absolute.

[karmavore]

Dave:

I don't think it's been said enough, so here goes: your engine bay is stunning. Just beautiful. I love the matte silver finish and the blue water hoses. Excellent job.

[Iconic Ride]

Aawh, you're just saying that 'cause it's true.

[CHANGES]

Thanks for the kind comments, As very few had seen or knew the details on the engine till recently, its nice to get feedback....

From Derek....,Just to clarify things though regarding the Delco ecu; it is more than capable of handling large injectors (see the excellent work the guys at code59.org have done with essentially the same type of ecu). The limitations are more related to the lack of knowledge about programming it and the need to re-write extensive parts of the code to handle pressures above 2 bar absolute.

Yes i agree but i think they were referring to an ECU with a chip and no other mod's........To clarify ...The Delco unit is very good but limited....yes you can start reprogramming and re-write the codes....but that can cost....and could be riddled with hidden issues....I was advised it would be cheaper to change the lot and start with blank page with programs that could handle anything you wanted..... I now don't think it is cheaper , but compatibility with new components and ease of mapping up may balance out the cost.!!!!

You mention 2 bar pressure....interesting ....we found that the map sensor fitted as std was max 1.5 bar and went out of sync. at 1bar......This map sensor is not good enough if you are increasing your boost...also the Delco ECU . tends to go a bit off track on high boost.,....it was not programed for it.... chipping helps but i feel its bouncing on the upper limits....

The conclusion i came to is......if you are going the extra mile fit a bigger tank.....

From Mike....Fantastic set up. but not sure why you would want that performance on our crowded, potholed and 30mph restricted roads, or is that just here in the SE. Personally I would be happy for with 50bhp

Its more about finding out what is the best that can be done is......The primary point of this project was to get power and drive-ability.....can't fix the potholed road though. its not just the SE. The Midlands is also pretty crap.!!! One good thing we have close to us is WALES... the roads there are fantastic , Twisty , undulating, smooth.. The NMEG regularly go out that was because of the great Esprit roads.

Lucas... pleased you like the engine bay.....The silver finish is 2000' f fire wall.....I was not sure how much heat was going to be produced so catered for the worst scenario...

I will see if i can get some spec on the new turbo today and post it later.....

[CHANGES]

TURBO UPDATE

Having spoke to Turbo Technics this morning , i have some requested info....

This turbo is still classed as a prototype hybrid and has no official parts number yet...Once our tests prove the product does the job then it will have a code...

So the way it has been described to me is , similar to a stage 4 cosy , its a T38 version of the s182 ..with 360 ' thrust bearing and 7 ' cut back....with larger turbine and compressor.

if you need any more specifics , list them and i will see what i can find out..

Dave

[Artie]

Dave,

Any idea what sizes the compressor are and the turbine are? What's the A/R? I've never heard of a T38 except as a training aircraft AKA the T38 Tigershark. The S4 turbo I believe was a 63mm turbo and the SE stock was a 58mm if I'm correct on the compressor side.

[Iconic Ride]

Pedantic Interlude:

T-38 Talon, two engine trainer, tandem seats

F-5 Tiger, two engine until single engine G model, all single seat except training version

G model rebranded as F-20 Tigershark

All built by Northrop, and all having very nice turbos

Dave, am I to understand that you are having your turbo built "from scratch" by Turbo Technics as a one off? Was this their idea, yours, or (as I suspect) a collaborative effort? Did you give them specifications, or did they come up with their own design based on the known 910 characteristics? Would also like to know if a bespoke turbo can be "bench tested" on its own (and if so, how), or does it have to mate up with some existing motor to provide the necessary exhaust flow?

[bosbon_be]

Turbo Technics can use parts from the Ford Siera Cosworth range to build a T38:

http://passionford.com/forum/ford-rs-cosworth-parts-for-sale/375035-universal-turbos-t38-reduced-575-pics-added.html

I have bougt an T34 to install in my Esprit (using an Emerald ECU) It's almost the same as Turbo Technics standard upgrade for the Esprit.

I love this topic, I know several Esprit owners (who are installing aftermarket ECU's), they daily read this topic

[CHANGES]

From John heath...... am I to understand that you are having your turbo built "from scratch" by Turbo Technics as a one off? Was this their idea, yours, or (as I suspect) a collaborative effort? Did you give them specifications, or did they come up with their own design based on the known 910 characteristics? Would also like to know if a bespoke turbo can be "bench tested" on its own (and if so, how), or does it have to mate up with some existing motor to provide the necessary exhaust flow?

Basically yes, at the moment its is a one off spec..... The idea came more from necessity as the T35 was unable th handle the flow... I requested that they come up with a spec / design that could handle the gas flow of this particular engine......From there data the T35 Hybrid design should handle the 910 characteristics...... In conference with N'hampton motor sport using data gathered on earlier dyno runs the final design was arrived at..... then unit will have been bench run to insure balance and ability......It was only when fitted to the engine and tested on dyno that the design was proved for this spec of engine.......

This type of T38 is a Turbo Technics own , not a Garret. And only available from them.

The Exhaust outlet is now 3'' instead of 2.5'' and the inlet from air filter 71.5 mm increase of 12.5 mm The compressor outlet has also increased from 52mm to 64mm ........

This may be one of the area's that would help Lucas and Artie achieve similar figures.....We only achieved 365 with T35 Hybrid ..food for thought....

Edited May 4, 2011 by CHANGES

[mike_sekinger]

I´m enjoying this thread a great deal.

One question on the turbo - The S300 turbo installed in the Le Mans cars were the same as the turbo on the road version of the car. They supported flow upwards of 400bhp on qualifying boost. They were essentially a T34 (although I don´t know what trim they deployed) , so I don´t really understand why you needed something so very special?

Cheers,

Mike S

[Mike6]

A very basic question but looking at those earlier pictures of the engine bay I cannot see where the air intake to the turbo is. Does it have a special arrangement that does away with that dreadful tube arrangement .

[CHANGES]

From Mike S......One question on the turbo - The S300 turbo installed in the Le Mans cars were the same as the turbo on the road version of the car. They supported flow upwards of 400bhp on qualifying boost. They were essentially a T34 (although I don´t know what trim they deployed) , so I don´t really understand why you needed something so very special?

I do not have any of the details on what the factory actually employed Turbo wise on the Le Mans car....What i do know from experience with other factory race cars is,, Not everything is what it seems ,, Especially where homoligation is concerned...

All i can be sure of is the facts as they unfolded during dyno testing. The T35 could not produce any more than 365 with my spec of engine. before failing....When i started this engine build i used my experience gained from rebuilding previous factory engines (various types). In the absence of Lotus factory spec for 400+.. I came up with my own spec ....so any comparison between the two is loose at best......They should be similar, but its all the small little changes added together that can make such a big difference in the final product..

Hope this answers your question...

From Mike 6....... A very basic question but looking at those earlier pictures of the engine bay I cannot see where the air intake to the turbo is. Does it have a special arrangement that does away with that dreadful tube arrangement .

Unfortunately no. but with the new Turbo it is bigger and no longer tapers down its length.....

Edited May 5, 2011 by CHANGES

[Jonathan]

Rumor has it there was a lot of cheating for all sorts of race prep-companies.

The LM cars were done by Chamberlin Engineering, NOT Lotus if my facts are correct.....and they didnt use the T34 from my information (again whether thats right or not I'm not to say....just repeating).

From pictures the compressor housing is huge.

I know the X-180R was hitting 325hp top - totally standard boost when it was racing (rumor has it they fiddle this to run even higher !)

I dont really know what the tech specs are of the T34, but running it at 1.6 bar and it not melting from the RPM would require immense cooling of the air. The LM cars ran the standard intercooler - I think the restrictions were simply put on the diameter of the air intake - from there the engines were tweaked to suit. Clearly whacking a truck turbo on there wont help if your inlet is restrcited to 100mm diameter.

[Vulcan Grey]

X180-R turbo

[Jonathan]

The LM car's one is about twice that size

[Bibs]

Pics?

[mike_sekinger]

Thanks for the answer on the turbo. I imagine there is a lot of truth in the deviations from the homologation rules

You probably know about this car - Michael Rodriques in the States. You will see some similarities here (also over 400bhp)

Cheers,

Mike S

[Iconic Ride]

Travis, that X180 is parked on the grass.

Hoon day?

"Cars 'n Coffee" day?

Car Club meet 'n greet?

Photo op shunt?

Excess fertilizer on factory floor?

And what are the "thingies" next to the header tank? Power pack(s)? Funky distributors?

Is that their normal location, or a mod?