VW faking emissions tests in USA?

[C8RKH]

So does this take all the questionable vehicles out of showrooms? Are they no longer available?

My son just bought a little VW. Petrol though, but have they been falsely represented as well?

my understaning is it is just the desels and this is to do with emissions not fuel figures. Do not under estimate the size of the hammer US Federal Agencies will use if they have proof a company has decieved them. They will go after them and they will seek punitive damages.

Whatall this does do is put a huge nail in the coffin for Desel and Diesel Cars due to emissions. Small, high efficiency petrol, hybrid, etc is the way forward now and this will boost EV's too.

[MikieP]

News here has it that all affected models are pulled from sales here, but i dunno what that REALLY means. lol.

[Mark Blanchard]

They're now suspecting petrol cars were rigged too.  This is getting messy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/11883357/vw-scandal-petrol-car-risk.html

[mdw]

And meanwhile back in the real world.............................. I didn't really think the mpg of my vw engine fabia  would be as in the brochure and the only reason I looked at emissions was to get  the low road tax.  If I was that worried about emissions I wouldnt have an esprit as well as 2 other cars and would ride a push bike all the time .  Sounds like vested interests finally finding a big enough stick to beat the big boy in the class.   Will I change my car, no.  Will the government now change the road tax band of the car , almost certainly not I imagine.  

I looked at how far out my Passat was on mpg from the brochure and used that to calculate on the Fabia which has been correct.   The fuel and road tax  savings I make  will pay over 4 years for the 2nd hand Fabia I bought. 

[C8RKH]

I thought the issue was about emissions, so why does everyone keep bringing up MPG figures? As you say Malcolm, emissions is key in the UK as it dictates road tax banding, and certainly was the reason I bought the wife a new Qashqai as it gave us all we needed, plus 3 years free servicing (including all fluids) and zero annual road tax. That amounted to around a £2500 running cost saving on her older Subaru Outback, before we factored in the improvement in mpg from low forties to mid fifties. It made the whole argument to buy new a no  brainer really.

The big stick is the fact that VW tried to defraud the US Federal Government. Anyone who lives there / has dealth with the US knows that you do this at your own risk and if caught you will, home company or foreign company, be subjective to heavy retribution. At least the head guys in VW will not have to worry about rendition flights and orange jump suits in a tropical climate!!! T hough boy do they deserve it in my opinion. Also reinforces my opinion about the smoke and mirrors that surrounds "superior German engineering and products". It's a carefully cultivated and much protected myth.  I got in a friends new four door BMW 4 series the other day, sat in the back and to be honest the black plastics were shiny, hard, and tacky looking. Don;t understand whey people harp on about the "premium quality" when to be frank the new Mondeo from Ford does it better for thousands less. It really is just badge snobbery.

[sailorbob]

Emissions and economy are related. The worse the economy the greater the emissions.

As for the UK's car taxation being based upon fuel economy / emissions it's a load of b*******. What pollutes more? The little old lady in her 20 mpg old car doing 5k a year or Ron the rep doing 50k a year in his 50 mpg new company car.

[simon mac]

My Exige V6 did over 31mpg on my 4k mile road trip.. the book says 28mpg!

Lotus yay, VW boo

I have to admit though I do feel a certain level of smugness in the Tesla

[atlasapl]

The more I think about this, the more I realise it could be a major turning point for the global motoring industry. I refuse to believe this is strictly a VW Group issue. This is something that has to be designed into the cars, not shoved in as an afterthought. Somebody had to come up with the idea, it had to be approved, funded, designed, tested and implemented.

The real issue is that politicians the world over have gained a lot of political scoring points by jumping on the green bandwagon. Now don’t get me wrong, I am not an anti-green idiot, but they have done very well by this stance. If this proves to be a global industry problem, they will have no choice but to come down hard on all manufacturers guilty of this. If they turn a blind eye, or go easy on their own national motoring industry, it will only start a tit-for-tat response by other countries.

As for fuel economy, we are all sceptical of the official figures given to us. If the lab tested co2 figures can be faked, so can the fuel consumption figures. I for one would like to see how they come up with the numbers.

I bet car manufacturers all over the world are shitting themselves this morning, wondering if they are next.

EDIT

Been reading about this a bit more. Seems they tested a BMW X5 at the same time, which passed without any issues. The head of Vauxhall UK has resigned suddenly, after being present at the launch of the new astra. Obviously this has nothing to do with co2 emissions. 

[Escape]

 If the lab tested co2 figures can be faked, so can the fuel consumption figures. I for one would like to see how they come up with the numbers.

CO2 emissions are directly linked to fuel consumption: every liter of a certain fuel burned will result in a a specific emission of CO2. There are differences between diesel, petrol, LPG and so on, because of the different composition of the fuel, but the only way to decrease the specific CO2 emission would be to have incomplete combustion and thus emit CO and C. Because all of the C-atoms in the molecules of the fuel will have to exit the tailpipe in some form or another. It's just as was said above, politics decided to get on the green bandwagon and suddenly it's all about CO2 when in reality most car car buyers/drivers were already considering mpg when making a decision. But CO2 sounds greener... NOx etc, that seem to be the most affected by the VW scheme (according to the articles) are a different matter though, as they are only byproducts and in much smaller concentrations. Reducing those typically means lower mpg, because of the compromise needed in combustion temperature, extra resistance in catalysts etc.

[Kimbers]

Its different in the States to the UK. In the States cars MUST have very tight restrictions under law. legal limits are set. Here in the UK you can have what you want but pay more the more CO2 your car produces. Plus, naturally, the more dirty the car the more fuel it tends to burn. Lean engines are efficient engines saving you money.

Going back to the UK. Where it heavily effects us is in company car terms. There are millions of Company Car users in the UK and the company car tax you pay is directly related to the Co2 of a car. So, for example, my Peugeot 308 GT 2.0 Hdi has Co2 of 103g/km therefore my company car tax is 18% of the list price as an adjustment to my tax code. 18% x £25,000 = £4500 adjustment. Actual cost 40% (tax bracket) of £4500 = £1800 per annum.

Take this back to VW. VW is one of, if not the, biggest supplier of company cars in the UK. Many of my Colleagues drive Golf and other products. Lets look at why it effects us so much.

Gold GTD (equiv of my 308GT) List Price basic £25285, Co2 109 g.km stated = 19% company car tax of £4804 x 40% = £1921.66. they are saying that some models are substantially more polluting than they state.Lets be kind and say another 30g/km (though they are saying it could be as much as double). 139g/km takes you to 25% company car tax or £6321.25 x 40% = £2528. Over £600 more per annum in company car tax, PLUS the difference of £100 a year on RFL.

Times that by the several million VW Company cars on the road and you start to see why it can be just as big a scandal in the UK as it is in the US.

[theelanman]

wonder if this will have any effect on them thinking about entering F1........

[Kimbers]

The more I think about this, the more I realise it could be a major turning point for the global motoring industry. I refuse to believe this is strictly a VW Group issue. This is something that has to be designed into the cars, not shoved in as an afterthought. Somebody had to come up with the idea, it had to be approved, funded, designed, tested and implemented.

The real issue is that politicians the world over have gained a lot of political scoring points by jumping on the green bandwagon. Now don’t get me wrong, I am not an anti-green idiot, but they have done very well by this stance. If this proves to be a global industry problem, they will have no choice but to come down hard on all manufacturers guilty of this. If they turn a blind eye, or go easy on their own national motoring industry, it will only start a tit-for-tat response by other countries.

As for fuel economy, we are all sceptical of the official figures given to us. If the lab tested co2 figures can be faked, so can the fuel consumption figures. I for one would like to see how they come up with the numbers.

I bet car manufacturers all over the world are shitting themselves this morning, wondering if they are next.

 

I think you are wrong. I think this is a VW/Audi/SEAT/Porsche issue. We have noticed for many years anomalies in Co2 readings of VW over and above other manufacturers. When most had Small family diesel hatchback models (208/Polo/Fiesta) at 100-120 g/km and then by restricting the engines, VW had theirs at 89g/km. Even now most manufacturers struggle to get a decent engine and under 100g/km.

Many like Peugeot have resorted to 3 cylinder petrol engines to get the emissions low enough and some engines have disappeared all together because it was impossible to keep them as efficient. For example Honda have got rid of the 2.2 diesel and developed a 1,6 Diesel, just to get emissions lower. Kia have developed a 1.1 diesel and cut out much of the 1.4 diesel in their smaller cars. Yet VW continue to build the 1.9 diesel and it's emissions show lower than even some of the other manufacturers 1.1-1.4 diesels.

No, I think this could very well be just a VW issue, though I may be proved wrong.

As for fuel economy figures. No one believes them and they are all done during testing rather than real life conditions. It also states in all brochures that the quoted figure on MPG is from test conditions so no legal issues there.

[Kimbers]

And, unsurprisingly, there goes the CEO...................http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34340997

[Jacques]

Oh, he will probably be covered in gold and benefits, as they usually do...

cheers,

Jacques.

[Bibs]

Although obviously VW are to blame for this, I think govt's should take some responsibility too.

If the emissions requirements weren't so strict, companies wouldn't have to cheat them. I'd imagine to pass all the tests, VW would have had to spend a very significant sum and that would be passed onto us, the consumers. I've no idea of the costs but if it double/tripled the costs of cars to make them all compliant would we all be buying new cars all the time? If the govt's were so strict, this wouldn't have happened.

For all these emissions reductions that are made, I'm sure China burns enough coal in an hour to negate them all anyway.

[Barrykearley]

that's a fair point. But only valid if they can prove everyone's cheating.

i somewhat doubt this will be the case. 

The rules are laid down. They need to be adhered to - why is it that big companies just seem to think it's a challenge to cheat and swerve as much as possible. Who was the guy that thought up this cheat and who was his boss that said " that's a good idea go for it". It all seems really far fetched.

this I'm sure will ripple into Audi, Porsche, seat, skoda and probably more.

in an ever developing world of computerisation and automation this is a very scary development. Sci-if world of the terminators rise of the machines is creeping every closer. Do we really want a cheating and scamming culture to start to become embedded????

we have now all been breathing ever more pollution from these old oil burners than we should have done - our tax regime would almost certainly have raised more revenue and limited the sales market of these vehicles. Let's not forget - simply VW have poisened our lungs and defrauded the exchequer 

[C8RKH]

 Let's not forget - simply VW have poisened our lungs and defrauded the exchequer 

Well said that man. They can dance naked on coals before I will ever buy one of their cars now.

And those who feel sorry for the line workers, think again. Their cheating and misrepresentation will have cost other car workers their jobs as VW grabbed market share based on lies and cheats. Spare a thought for those line workers who had already lost out....

[Barrykearley]

I have owned several VW vehicles.

I shall never own another.......

[MikieP]

Interestingly, reading the aforementioned BBC statement noted that about 50% of cars in the UK are diesel? OMG. UK impact makes this side of the ocean's issues appear miniscule in comparison though our number of cars is larger, the proportion is certainly quite lower gas to diesel varieties I think. I doubt that the person jamming on the wheels knew of this cheating. I suspect those that knew were quite small in number, akin to those knowing the secret codes for nukes given the devastation disclosure would cause if leaked to the public. It certainly affects the entire industry in gobs of ways and I would not be surprised VW is not the sole user of this modded software. I wonder if UK specs are similar to ours and if so, that would almost guarantee this could be world wide in scale for VW. Ooops!

Last VW (old used gas bug) I owned was during a 3 year stint in Pirmasens, DE. around 1970 or so. Almost all cars since returning here to the US were SAAB Turbos: 99, 900T's, things I could afford and get FWD for snowy travels while most here were stuck where they were. The Esprit is the first RWD car I have owned in almost 30 years.

Edited September 23, 2015 by MikieP

[ramjet]

I don't think this will just stop at the manufacturer. With the law as it exists in the US, will we see a class action by worldwide shareholders who will say that the share prices have been good due to scandalous activity? Or is the share market protected by 'you pay your money, you takes your chances?'

I can understand that if it is done above board, but any slump in their share price now is by their own illegal activity?

[sailorbob]

I'd be interested to see the consumption of diesel fuel by cars compared to other uses (i.e. other vehicles, fixed plant etc). I expect around a third of total diesel is consumed by cars which means there are far greater sources of NOx out there.

[nello]

[redshift]

If the emissions requirements weren't so strict, companies wouldn't have to cheat them. I'd imagine to pass all the tests

The emissions requirements have been set by UNECE and the EU directives have been repealed in favour of the UNECE approvals.

Guess who is a major player in the UNECE working groups writing these requirements??

My personal experience of UNECE regulations has led me to the conclusion that UNECE, arse and elbow will often been found in the same sentence.

[Stubox]

The new 'real world' fuel economy tests become required for new vehicle type approvals in Sept 17. You'll see a significant rise in published mpg/co2 (circa 20%) as the test is longer and at higher speeds. The government will love it.

As for VW they were very silly. You do not mess with the EPA.

An interesting tact from VAG on improving emission numbers is the new Audi A4. Comes with only a 40L tank as standard so is tested as such.....then as a no cost option you get a 54L/58L fuel tank and extra size Ad Blue tank...saves a lot of weight in the test procedure not having that volume of liquid sloshing around. Cunning

Anyway good that they were pegged back as they were on course for global domination. I always believed Winterkorn used to sit in board meeting stroking a white cat.

[Bazza 907]

Forgive the Google translate, but this is an article in Auto Bild suggesting other manufacturers may be culpable. BMW shares are currently tanking.

 

‘VW is not the only automaker whose cars produce showy nitric oxide levels. Even the BMW X3 xDrive 20d has the European emission standards (Euro 6 limit) is exceeded during road tests of the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) by more than 11 times. Thus, the car cuts even worse than the situation complained of by the US Environmental Protection Agency VW Passat. "All measured data suggest that this is not a VW-specific issue," says Peter Mock the ICCT. In tests of his institute the VW vehicles had the Euro 6 limit for the toxic nitrogen oxides (NOx) by an average of more than exceeded 22 times - determined the US Environmental Protection Agency.’

 

"Whether other manufacturers use a cheat software except VW, remains to be seen," says AUTO BILD staff Benjamin Gehr. A BMW spokesman commented on the request of AUTO BILD whether BMW at test bench measurements other engine calibrations used than on the street, as follows: "There are at BMW no function for detecting exhaust cycles All exhaust systems remain active even outside the exhaust cycle.."