Drive Shaft oil seal

[DanR]

What he said...

The outer unsprung seal lip is just stopping dust same as the original.

[Vanya]

6 hours ago, DaveyT said:

Looking at my 'box on th garage floor ATM, with a view to doing this.

Which set up started leaking for you Vanya, Double or single?

cheers

 

Hey,

Regular single seal with an o-ring on the shaft. 

/V

[eeyoreish]

7 hours ago, DanR said:

What he said...

The outer unsprung seal lip is just stopping dust same as the original.

Got it, thanks!

[Günter]

as said many times in past years:

First check that the inner differential shafts (short ends the drive-shafts are stacked onto)  do not have to much play, means differential main bearings in the gearbox are set up precize. so those shaft do not "wobble" to much. As a shaft with to much play does have unsteady contact on the sealing lip of any arrangement you put on the end ..

Other point is - if you fit "new" sealing ring again and again, allways in the same position (deepnes) into the casing - it will run on the same "wear point" on your driveshaft, hence the sealing lip on the newly fitted ring will wear out even faster .. that's why the mentioned way  to 'mimic' the arrangement of oil-lip & dust-lip edge via two separate rings with slightly differend dimension is good  (in terms of insertion deepness) if added together .. therfore lips run on formerly untouched surfaces, therfore last as expected.   ..same effect if you not place a new ring into the same position as the previous was fitted into (even 1mm change in position can help)

next technical point - if you in a hurry to pass a MOT, and you have patience to fiddle and price out the driveshaft and the small spring inside of the sealin lip - undo the spring, find the joint point of the "endless" lookin sping, get it off - shorten one end (the right end of course !) .. attach ends together again and fiddle the spring behnd the lip afterwards  (needs patience and at least small modelcrafting screwdrivers or "3 Fingers at a time.." )  - with this you can compensate a problem with delivery time and pass MOT way more guarantied than just a "wash & wipe" with brakecleaner  .. as sometimes even the way to the MOT station causes a drip again, if just wiped clean on easy try.. .  But keep in mind that a shorter spring means stronger contact pressure on the lip, whereas the physical design and sealing effect of those sealing rings is mostly based on atmospheric pressure and hydrodynamic effects, so it wasn't intendet to be in a strong contact  ..so the seal will now wear within 1 month or so and leak even more if you drive with this "manipulation" to long around the streets.  But the method is proven by years of practise anyway .. .

Other more technical advanced method to compensate sealing problems on "worn" (grooved) surface areas of a shaft:

Use the "sleeve type" sealing rings  ..mostly used in comercial trucks where long distance replacements count.  Those rings do have a own "sealing surface" for the traditional sealing lip - but additional inside of the ring is a fabricated 'sleeve' that suits the original shaft by dimension. This sleeve is pressed onto the shaft if you insert the ring as replacement and fit the driveshaft flange or any shaft in this case into a gearbox /  mechanical drive   .. so the surface of 'sleeve to shaft' does not rotate relative to each other, it is additionaly rubberised as well  .. what rotates is the freshly fabricated sleeve-surface in relation to the sealing ring lip. For this the outer dimension of those rings are the same as the traditional ones  .. as well as the inner (shaft) dimension - what different is is the diameter of the sealing-lip  dimension (as to compensate the sleeve diameter)

 

example:

Final note - keep in mind that the splined surface of the short shafts on the differential do have a O-ring on the base  .. means this ring needs to be compressed to seal the oil passage way from inside alng the spline way up to the pin holes  (so if you notice a oil leake even with some dots of silicone on the pin ends - think about to inspect condition of the inner O-rings on the differential stubshafts  .. you can replace them with different (bigger size as well) it just needs more power to press on the dirveshaft in such case, to align the pin holes ..

[Loose Cannon]

Just when I was hoping this thread about double seals etc. was going to get pictures......now even more confused! Think I'll leave this job to the experts.

[DaveyT]

Was going to make this my last job for the week, but only half a day left before I go home again, so not sure now.

Got the hub carrier off, but reading the Manuel, it seems I need to remove the bearing housing (pp.9 and 24 of section FB3)??

Is the drive shaft actually a one piece part from the brake disc to the splines on the inside of the 'box as P24 seems to show?

Does this mean drive shaft seal replacement is a de-facto engine out jobbie?

I'm with Advantage, anyone got any useful piccies?

Cheers,

Dave

[LotuStuart]

I'm notice help to you-but I don't think you need to do as much as you think-and certainly not an engine out for a V8 

[Vanya]

2 hours ago, Loose Cannon said:

Just when I was hoping this thread about double seals etc. was going to get pictures......now even more confused! Think I'll leave this job to the experts.

Nah man, have at it. 

Here's a guide by the almighty Vulcan Grey. With pictures. 

trannyseals.pdf

Edit: For those with a UK car, don't bother trying to undo the lower link pin as in the guide. Leave that for another (life)time. I undid the lower link to chassis mount and the upper link to hub. Easy peasy. 

[andydclements]

On 14/04/2016 at 07:17, DaveyT said:

Looking at my 'box on th garage floor ATM, with a view to doing this.

Which set up started leaking for you Vanya, Double or single?

cheers

 

Dave.

Is this for your '82 S3?

If so, I'd expect you to have a Citroen transaxle rather than the Renault where we face this problem often.

[DaveyT]

Good spot Andy, I am indeed on the C35 box, and I failed to pick up that it was a renault box issue...

Worry is that the seals are over 20 years old. Werent leaking when last run, but thought it sensible to do while lump out...

Anyone any thoughts on the C35 seal?

 

[Mark Blanchard]

The seals dry out and crack if you don't uses your car regularly.  I changed mine in 2002, use my car every weekend and they're still good. 

[Günter]

On 18.5.2016 at 17:16, Loose Cannon said:

Just when I was hoping this thread about double seals etc. was going to get pictures......now even more confused! Think I'll leave this job to the experts.

wasn't meant to confuse anyone - what I tell is just technical background, basic engineering for the home-garage, not spaceage sience.

 

So everyone with a Renault box can service the driveshafts in DIY. All you need is a (self made) precice tool to press rings in, if you choose to fit new ones.  And if you do that, just keep in mind what I've told about "weared surfaces" - "insertion deepnes" - and the O-ring inside on the diff shaft.

 

The note about "sleeve type" sealing rings was meant as a help, in case of a really worn surface on a mechanical system, with a problem on a leakin shaft.  It is also used on classic car engines on the crankshaft, where a piece of leather or labyrinth type sealing was used in past century.

[Barrykearley]

If the cars left sat for a protracted period - I would argue this can deform the seals and lead to weeping.

use the car - and it improves - it was a fact on my old one.

[eeyoreish]

I'm planning to do these at the weekend using the double seal method. All the tools and parts are to hand as well as Travis's guide and the Lotus workshop manual.

Just one question... In Travis's photo of the old seal in place (below) it looks fairly flush with the casing. So, if I use 2 seals where does the second one go as it doesn't look like there is enough depth?

Or, is the original Lotus seal deeper than a standard oil seal (which I have) so I tap the first to the depth of the 'back' of the old one, then the second sits on top and finishes where this one is.

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I haven't done these before and I'm trying to avoid having it in pieces on the garage floor and then realising I'm stuck!

[DanR]

That's why I use a vernier caliper to take measurements before I press the two seals in. Once you know  the total width of the two seals (should be 15mm) and depth of the alloy shoulder in the case it becomes clear how far to press each seal in. I've done a few now and hasn't failed me yet.

[swindon_alan]

Does anyone have a spec/dimensions for the o-rings please?

[Barrykearley]

When I get home I can !!

[Barrykearley]

Righto

i have a proper kit - roll pins seals and o rings.

i also have a Cheapo screwfix o ring box

the o ring size is indeed in the screwfix box - it's a r-21 Id 26.5 section 3.5

hope this helps

@swindon_alan What about the internal light I smashed today being clumsy ?? It's got citreon/Talbot/Peugeot signs on the back of it made by axo

[swindon_alan]

Top man Barry, thanks on the o-ring! That's great intel as it has been asked many times on here

What does the other side of the interior light look like? Has it got a switch on it? That's different on a '98 from mine, S4/S4s etc. which have festoon bulbs. I think that it might be a 206/306/406/Berlingo/just about every other frog car item. Post another pic please bud.

PS I just scanned and copied your fingerprints and now have a biometric of you. I claim your chickens and also your car lift. I'ze own ya baby!

[Barrykearley]

It's the same as in the 205 and 309 and probably others.

its a rocking lens one - I bust it being over heavy !!! Trying to fit an led panel into it. Doh!! 

You asked just in time about the seal - it nearly got fitted today. 

[swindon_alan]

@Barrykearley hopefully you haven't done your drive shaft seals yet...

Can you measure up the roll pins for me please Barry? Lengths/diameters. Ta.

[Barrykearley]

Not done them yet ..... There's two different sizes in the bag - will measure them for you

[Barrykearley]

Fat roll pin - 50mm long, 6.5mm od

thin toll pin - 50mm long, 3.9mm od

seal has this written on it

sog. 116092    42.    58.   9/16.  W

[swindon_alan]

Thanks Barry

[swindon_alan]

On 18/05/2016 at 19:00, Vanya said:

Edit: For those with a UK car, don't bother trying to undo the lower link pin as in the guide. Leave that for another (life)time. I undid the lower link to chassis mount and the upper link to hub. Easy peasy. 

Doh! I didn't see your tip @Vanya. I did a very quick turnaround job on my offside seal as it was leaking, I didn't want to take the car on holiday to France with it in case it got worse. So I followed Vulcan Grey's guide. Removing the lower link pin wasn't too bad, it came out relatively easily using washers and spacers and winding it out with the one of the nuts:

The pins and seal came out easily enough with the right tools. I tried the double seal fix as described on here but just couldn't get them in square or to the right depth without the proper insertion tool (my piece of waste pipe wasn't up to it and it's an arm breaker working through the wheel arch with the car on a jack and axle stands. Two pairs of buggered seals after repeatedly pushing them in and fishing them out again... Anyway, a big thank you to @Barrykearley for helping me out, an OEM seal went in nicely with the pipe to the right depth. Getting the lower link pin back in was more of a problem, lining the holes up with the hub, washers and arm took some doing and plenty of swearing.

1,400 miles around France and not a trace of any gearbox oil

Oh and Vanya, why did you say "For those with a UK car, don't bother trying to undo the lower link pin as in the guide"? I thought all markets had the same rear suspension?