Future of Lotus

[C8RKH]

3 hours ago, Bibs said:

Dealership CI was on the agenda.

Service item pricing was too. 

Ok so was pretty dull then 

[Andrew C]

On 20/01/2020 at 14:00, swindon_alan said:

Nope, NHP again. Not his problem. Renewables are the same, solar panels with their horrid contents, wind turbines that slaughter birds (how eco friendly).

 

This just confirms what i have been saying for the last 2 years. 

[mg4lotus]

Everyone here is continuously comparing Lotus with Porsche and that Geely are wanting to introduce a SUV.

How about this for a thought and comparing the Elise / Exige  with that other track day car, the Ariel Atom and then continuing the thought process to the Ariel Nomad. Of course there is no mass market so it will probably never happen but it is interesting to think what it might be like.

[au-yt]

2 hours ago, Andrew C said:

This just confirms what i have been saying for the last 2 years. 

This is the tip of the iceberg however I don't think this is the right forum for such an emotive subject.

[JG220]

On 18/01/2020 at 16:37, The Pits said:

You have to hope that Lotus are paying attention to the car maker they aspire to emulate. If so it should help the improve the chances of future 6 cylinder, manual sports cars no end.

Can't see who would go for a new 6 cyl GTS when the choice is between saving a lot on a used 981 or spending a bit more for a GT4 but 4 cyl Cayman sales really must have been dire for Porsche to reverse their plans. Pretty dumb if you ask me to take away your car's USP in the first place but there you go.

I ordered one yesterday 😊

718 is better in every respect vs 981, In particular the steering. 
 

GT4 might get more available, but still not open to me. GTS4.0 also £15k lighter once you spec the bare minimum on each. Kept the GTS below £70k. Astonishing when you think an Exige Sport 410 is £20k more. 
£10k more if you buy a prereg/stock item. (I know a GTS won’t be as good on track and that maybe I’m comparing two different USPs. If you’ve got £70ish and want a manual mid engined non turbo car you are pretty short of options)

also python green only available on GTS

Orders seem to be going quite well. the OPC I ordered from has 3 orders ahead of me. Finally a Porsche product where you don’t have to have a prior buying history. 

i think we have to thank our US friends. Four pot sales on 718 there have Been particularly poor.

that was my reasoning anyway. 

i did my bit for lotus, 4 new cars in 5 years, time to try something different. I’m sure il buy a new Elise when it comes. 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by JG220

[jep]

1 hour ago, JG220 said:

i did my bit for lotus, 4 new cars in 5 years, time to try something different. I’m sure il buy a new Elise when it comes. 

 

Sorry to lose you but 4 new Lotus is brilliant going and customers like you are crucial to a company such as Lotus. 

I tend to buy second-hand (I hope to get a 5 year old IPS 400 in 2021) but couldn't do so without the folk who put out the folding for these cars fresh out of the box.

I hope you will be back soon and that you enjoy your Stuttgart steed (but not too much).

Justin 

[JG220]

thanks

Nothing will beat the residual on my V6S. Paid £52k new in 2016, nearly four years on its for sale at Hoffman’s for £46k. 

I still have my GM lotus, which for me, is still the best ‘lotus’ I’ve ever had. And that is appreciating - glacially. 

No real Lotus in the household for now though

Edited January 26, 2020 by JG220

[jep]

12 minutes ago, JG220 said:

thanks

Nothing will beat the residual on my V6S. Paid £52k new in 2016, nearly four years on its for sale at Hoffman’s for £46k. 

I still have my GM lotus, which for me, is still the best ‘lotus’ I’ve ever had. And that is appreciating - glacially. 

No real Lotus in the household for now though

Fab you have not left altogether. M100, I assume is your GM Lotus (not a Carlton), is a brilliant car. A shame they could not sell as required but recession and buyer preference for slower, cheaper, inferior MX5 did for it. Thank goodness in many ways.....Elise arrived in 96. 

I have not bought a new Lotus since 340R in 2000. Still got it, perhaps worth more than I paid but is a bit battle-worn. 

Justin 

[C8RKH]

10 hours ago, au-yt said:

This is the tip of the iceberg however I don't think this is the right forum for such an emotive subject.

Not sure why you think this is not the right forum. Can understand why not the right thread/topic.

The points raised in that video are very valid and yet again go to prove that as a civilisation we continue to fail to heed, listen and learn from our past mistakes.  For decades, longer in fact, we have listened to the story tellers that promise riches and power untold and we have followed, headlong, in a rush behind them to make sure we all get our share, some share, any share.  The current headlong rush into renewables is causing more environmental damage, in a shorter period of elapsed time, than the Oil industry. Yet, no one wants to hear that as the it's not trendy and on message.

Lotus, if it decides to rush headlong into BEV's will be a part of the future problem, not a part of the solution. It will just be another "me too" organisation cashing in on the latest trend. This is hugely disappointing to me as one of the reasons why I have grown to love Lotus is because it was different!  It did not merely follow the path that others had laid.  It sought to do things differently and often the things that it did where better than what everyone else was doing.

The cars of the 60s, 70's, 80's and 90's where as good as anything else from any other similar manufacturer.  They competed with, and in seriousness beat, the might of companies like Ferrari and Porsche in terms of engineering etc.

The Elise when it came out was truly revolutionary. It was a real game changer.  You can argue that the Evora, when originally launched, with its super stiff sectional alloy chassis again, was revolutionary.  However, the rot started not long after the launch of the Elise when Lotus was "owned" by people who did just not understand the brand, the legacy, the uniqueness that was Lotus.  For the past 15 or so years the brand has been starved of proper, long term investment and a clear, cohesive strategy for the future.  That Lotus still manages to make and sell around 2k cars a year is a bloody marvel to be honest. Despite the bashing, even on here, a Lotus forum for members who love Lotus cars, Lotus continues to push out some of the best drivers cars ever made.  Are they as cossetting as a Porsche? No.  But then neither are they as bland and samey as a Porsche.  They are different.

I like the Evija.  I think it is a bloody marvellous thing. Beautifully proportioned (unlike the increasing leviathons from Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti and even McLaren), focused and clerverly engineered. To me, it is everything that a halo car for Lotus should be.

I just hope, like many on here (despite what many on here are pedalling) that the silence from Lotus on anything but the Evija, will be broken by the announcement of 2/3 new cars that take styling cues from the Evija, but combine that with the driving dynamics of the current cars, with a range of engines that are for now, not for 10 years plus from now (i.e.not all electric).  We need to remember that as we are tolling the bells of doom for Lotus petrol cars, rivals are pushing out up to 4 litre (in the case of Ferrari etc much more than that) petrol cars that provide the oomph and noise to excite "alongside" their all electric Halo's and complimentary models.  The Porsche Tincan in all of its BEV beauty is not, unless I have missed something, the replacement for the wonderful GT3 or GT3RS 911. It sits alongside, to allow Porsche owners a choice. Lotus I hope will be doing something similar or, it will indeed die as I fear the current owners will look elsewhere and Lotus will need to massively reinvent to tempt new owners to their brand, without being able to really leverage the "beauty and majesty" of her past.  In essence, Lotus may become like Maserati, Bugatti et al. A corporate pale imitation of itself that is living of it heritage to sell massively over priced cars to massively wealthy people who just seek the next "trinket" for their garage.

It's interesting that even the mighty BMW (who has been in partnership with Toyota for 5 years!) thinks that BEV's solely are not the way forward and that customers deserve or will demand choice in the near future:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/news/fuel-cell-powertrains-could-cheap-petrol-five-years-says-bmws/

The other advantage of Hydrogen fuel cells that should be totally relevant to Lotus is that the Hydrogen stored for circa 250-300 mile ranges only weighs around 5-6kg including the carbon/lined tanks. When you compare that with the weight of Battery Cells and the fact you can be more creative re the Hydrogen fuel storage shapes, then this surely plays into Lotus strengths re lightweight, performance focused, packaging.

Hmmm. From eco warriors to future of Lotus in one post. So still on topic. Phew! 

 

[Andrew C]

Its a great shame that Lotus have not got into bed with Toyota they have worked together for many years and Toyota have come to the rescue a couple of times over the years

The  Hydrogen fuel cell would be the game changer for Lotus and Toyota are doing a great job developing it. The 2 together would make a great team and the cars we want.   

Lead the field once more. 

[JG220]

4 hours ago, jep said:

Fab you have not left altogether. M100, I assume is your GM Lotus (not a Carlton), is a brilliant car. A shame they could not sell as required but recession and buyer preference for slower, cheaper, inferior MX5 did for it. Thank goodness in many ways.....Elise arrived in 96. 

I have not bought a new Lotus since 340R in 2000. Still got it, perhaps worth more than I paid but is a bit battle-worn. 

Justin 

You have to whisper it round here but ...VX220

[jep]

Of course. Silly me. VX220. Lovely looking car. I have never driven one. Griffin no problem with me, I loved my Astra GTE Mk 1. 

Lotus Cortina is loved by the Lotus community. VX220 has more Lotus in it than that. 

No GM...probably no Elise. M100 failure led to Elise, under new ownership. 

Sorry, off topic. Will cease. 

Justin 

[JG220]

5 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Not sure why you think this is not the right forum. Can understand why not the right thread/topic.

The points raised in that video are very valid and yet again go to prove that as a civilisation we continue to fail to heed, listen and learn from our past mistakes.  For decades, longer in fact, we have listened to the story tellers that promise riches and power untold and we have followed, headlong, in a rush behind them to make sure we all get our share, some share, any share.  The current headlong rush into renewables is causing more environmental damage, in a shorter period of elapsed time, than the Oil industry. Yet, no one wants to hear that as the it's not trendy and on message.

Lotus, if it decides to rush headlong into BEV's will be a part of the future problem, not a part of the solution. It will just be another "me too" organisation cashing in on the latest trend. This is hugely disappointing to me as one of the reasons why I have grown to love Lotus is because it was different!  It did not merely follow the path that others had laid.  It sought to do things differently and often the things that it did where better than what everyone else was doing.

The cars of the 60s, 70's, 80's and 90's where as good as anything else from any other similar manufacturer.  They competed with, and in seriousness beat, the might of companies like Ferrari and Porsche in terms of engineering etc.

The Elise when it came out was truly revolutionary. It was a real game changer.  You can argue that the Evora, when originally launched, with its super stiff sectional alloy chassis again, was revolutionary.  However, the rot started not long after the launch of the Elise when Lotus was "owned" by people who did just not understand the brand, the legacy, the uniqueness that was Lotus.  For the past 15 or so years the brand has been starved of proper, long term investment and a clear, cohesive strategy for the future.  That Lotus still manages to make and sell around 2k cars a year is a bloody marvel to be honest. Despite the bashing, even on here, a Lotus forum for members who love Lotus cars, Lotus continues to push out some of the best drivers cars ever made.  Are they as cossetting as a Porsche? No.  But then neither are they as bland and samey as a Porsche.  They are different.

I like the Evija.  I think it is a bloody marvellous thing. Beautifully proportioned (unlike the increasing leviathons from Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti and even McLaren), focused and clerverly engineered. To me, it is everything that a halo car for Lotus should be.

I just hope, like many on here (despite what many on here are pedalling) that the silence from Lotus on anything but the Evija, will be broken by the announcement of 2/3 new cars that take styling cues from the Evija, but combine that with the driving dynamics of the current cars, with a range of engines that are for now, not for 10 years plus from now (i.e.not all electric).  We need to remember that as we are tolling the bells of doom for Lotus petrol cars, rivals are pushing out up to 4 litre (in the case of Ferrari etc much more than that) petrol cars that provide the oomph and noise to excite "alongside" their all electric Halo's and complimentary models.  The Porsche Tincan in all of its BEV beauty is not, unless I have missed something, the replacement for the wonderful GT3 or GT3RS 911. It sits alongside, to allow Porsche owners a choice. Lotus I hope will be doing something similar or, it will indeed die as I fear the current owners will look elsewhere and Lotus will need to massively reinvent to tempt new owners to their brand, without being able to really leverage the "beauty and majesty" of her past.  In essence, Lotus may become like Maserati, Bugatti et al. A corporate pale imitation of itself that is living of it heritage to sell massively over priced cars to massively wealthy people who just seek the next "trinket" for their garage.

It's interesting that even the mighty BMW (who has been in partnership with Toyota for 5 years!) thinks that BEV's solely are not the way forward and that customers deserve or will demand choice in the near future:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/news/fuel-cell-powertrains-could-cheap-petrol-five-years-says-bmws/

The other advantage of Hydrogen fuel cells that should be totally relevant to Lotus is that the Hydrogen stored for circa 250-300 mile ranges only weighs around 5-6kg including the carbon/lined tanks. When you compare that with the weight of Battery Cells and the fact you can be more creative re the Hydrogen fuel storage shapes, then this surely plays into Lotus strengths re lightweight, performance focused, packaging.

Hmmm. From eco warriors to future of Lotus in one post. So still on topic. Phew! 

 

I agree with all of that. 
 

With the average co2 directive of 95 then manufacturers need to have mass Low CO2 (I’d be content with an electric daily) in exchange for petrol sports cars. 
 

Porsche need to sell 1.5 Taycans to sell a GTS/GT4 Cayman. That’s the model Geely need to adopt too, which they probably are with Volvo, Lotus and so on. 
 

 

[C8RKH]

I love my VX220. It's pure Lotus fun with a big V on the front.

Without it yup, no Elise S2. No Exige. No Evora.

Shame some people at Lotus have such short memories.

[Geoffers]

8 hours ago, C8RKH said:

The Porsche Tincan in all of its BEV beauty is not, unless I have missed something, the replacement for the wonderful GT3 or GT3RS 911. It sits alongside, to allow Porsche owners a choice. 

 

Whilst watching coverage of the Daytona 24hrs last night, the commentators interviewed someone high up in the Porsche hierarchy, can't remember his name. He stated that although Porsche are investing in electric powered cars there are no plans to power the 911 by anything other than a petrol engine.

[JG220]

...for now. There is bound to be an electric 911 one day.

[Loquacious Lew]

It sounds like we are losing our dealer here.  They have been with the line for 3 years and were enthusiastic at the start.  Now they are quietly going away.  

Lotus has not yet acted to support its existing customers here in ways that will make a visible difference.  What is different in America  is that very few if any dealers rely on Lotus as a main line. Lotus' low volumes don't necessarily put dealerships out of business.  It just impacts their willingness to be Lotus dealers.  

Although my complaints are relatively minor (and I love my car)  little has visibly  changed in the years since Geely has surfaced as savior.  Hopefully that will change with time but the things they could have done to show a bit of forward motion where the rubber meets the road (which isn't on You Tube) have yet to be accomplished. For me, the future just got tougher as my closest active dealership is now likely to be  6 hours out and back.  I will be coming off warranty in 5 or 6 months so I could opt to use an independent service center  but my preference for a car like this is always going to be authorized specialist  service.  

We all agree Lotus cars are great fun,  different and better than the reputation they bear but for those of us invested in Lotus by dint of our purchases,  the situation appears static and there is no guarantee that buying a new Lotus Evora today will result in a happy motoring/ownership experience  five years from now.    We buy the cars here despite the reasons not to and on that front there has been little progress.  

[jep]

51 minutes ago, Loquacious Lew said:

We all agree Lotus cars are great fun,  different and better than the reputation they bear but for those of us invested in Lotus by dint of our purchases,  the situation appears static and there is no guarantee that buying a new Lotus Evora today will result in a happy motoring/ownership experience  five years from now.    We buy the cars here despite the reasons not to and on that front there has been little progress.

I would struggle without good dealer input. I am very fortunate to live 15 minutes from the oldest surviving Lotus dealer, Bell and Colvill. 

When I first caught the bug in 1992, I had an Esprit S1. I depended heavily on specialists to keep me on the road. I would never entrust my Lotus to a generic mechanic or for that matter,  any of my cars. I still use Renault specialist for my 10 year old Frenchies. 

Well done to all who cope without the great back-up I receive. Hopefully Geely have the answer but as Lotus has struggled to find a good US operation since the year dot, and how Jaguar struggled in the 70s and 80s to do the same, I think one has to allow them some considerable leeway in their attempts to find a solution.

Justin

 

[Loquacious Lew]

It turns out I am seriously  mistaken in suggesting that my dealer is disappearing. I'd  edit that out but the forum software won't let me. In any case I posted that info  based on some inside info that turned out not to be well informed. 

[Bibs]

They're not short of a few quid! Good on them.

[JG220]

😱impressive!

[NedaSay]

Geely has a very vested interest into making sure that they don't loose part of their workforce to that thing... Wuhan is where they are building their Luxury Lotus factory... I don't mean to take anything away from this  initiative it is great to see companies step in this way.

[Ccd]

Before I start, yes I have complained about this before and I’m going to do it again.  The Washington, DC auto show is taking place right now in my nation’s capital.  Just read that this is the 5th largest auto show in the country and Lotus is nowhere to be found.   Hard to sell cars when people don’t even know you exist!

On my side of the pond, you get the distinct impression that Lotus considers the Evora a lost cause and is unwilling to spend resources to promote the car.  All of their money is being saved for what comes next.

 I’d like to consider an Evora for my next car, but it is very hard to do.  First, I’d have to drive 2-3 hours just to test drive one.  Second, I’d never buy a new one because I’m not driving 2-3 hours for warranty repairs or haggling with Lotus for reimbursement for warranty repairs made by 3rd parties.  This could easily be addressed by Lotus negotiating a deal with a local repair shop to accept warranty repairs and give people considering the car confidence that there was someone local who could do the repairs.  Third, I’m concerned about the level of support Lotus will offer for its current lineup once it transitions to their new cars.  

So I will be attending the auto show this year.  Guess I will be looking at all the Lotus alternatives, which is a shame.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

5th largest auto show in the country? How many do you have?

[Loquacious Lew]

On 27/01/2020 at 12:51, jep said:

I would struggle without good dealer input. I am very fortunate to live 15 minutes from the oldest surviving Lotus dealer, Bell and Colvill. 

When I first caught the bug in 1992, I had an Esprit S1. I depended heavily on specialists to keep me on the road. I would never entrust my Lotus to a generic mechanic or for that matter,  any of my cars. I still use Renault specialist for my 10 year old Frenchies. 

Well done to all who cope without the great back-up I receive. Hopefully Geely have the answer but as Lotus has struggled to find a good US operation since the year dot, and how Jaguar struggled in the 70s and 80s to do the same, I think one has to allow them some considerable leeway in their attempts to find a solution.

Justin

 

I want to say again that it was some bad dope from a former employee substantiated by another owner that caused me to prematurely announce the demise of my dealer That however prompted me to respond here.  Happily authorized service is still  less than half an hour away.  I can easily live with that.

 

Indeed, Lotus have  struggled but at least lately some of that is  due I think to a lack of visible investment. This was understandable when Lotus was  struggling on its own or through that  successions of ownership changes, right through Proton. This was anticipated and tolerated by owners given the company was struggling to survive.  Almost three years later,  we still suffer delayed warranty approval/repairs,  parts delivery delays, and the understanding that if one is  bold enough to buy an Evora,  one has  to be resilient enough to deal with any  roadblocks in sorting it out.  

I expect repairs requiring parts may result in days or weeks of delay.   One sucks it up and reminds oneself they have a daily driver  on the one hand and something unique on the other.    I'm a  understand how challenging  it is to deliver low volume, hand made cars through a nascent network at a price. It would yet be prudent  for Lotus to construct an efficient infrastructure starting now to support dealers and clients with dispatch.  Doing so prepares the company to support the growth it needs,  retains owners and encourages us to act as sales reps.  Which I do anyway  because, Lotus.  

A  million dollars (probably one fifth of that) would provide the parts backup  given our low vehicle count.  A review of warranty policies and dealer reimbursements  could make the company more competitive overall.   

I say this all the time, over and over,  but I love my car as much as anybody can love an inanimate possession. It brings me  joy on an almost daily basis.  That's the way you need to feel about owning a Lotus because like children, puppies and kittens, it's a damn good thing they're so cute or you'd kill them!