Future of Lotus

[The Pits]

Sadly it’s the other way around at Porsche dealers. The customers are the ones sucking up to the dealers, buying cars they don’t even want to get on their obnoxious ’preferred customer list’ they figure it will all be worth it when they can start flipping  the latest GT car for a quick tax free profit.

[Jacques]

Hmmm, maybe, just maybe, at least some chaos car owners, are not really keen on driving their sportscars proudly advertising that they only drove 150 km's that year (thereby being a proven pro-driver), then a still stand for some 5 years, where after they go to one coffe and cars show, driving a measely 100 km's, but more likely to see them as investment options, that will rise (or fall - hardly) as future becomes past. And by then, all of their more mundane models will be sucked up by not so firstmovers, who are glad to invest their money, trying to get the same effect on their future back account. Fortunately, there are also some owners who are really keen on actually driving the crap out of their cars - how they are meant to be used

But yes, Porsche is an institution in itself, they can hardly do anything wrong these years, and not a day after a person who has now become appointed some sort of leader, or rather head of department, they hurry to the nearest Porsche dealership and get their badge of proof of their job, a chaos car. Each to his own of course.

The strange part of it all is when buyers will actually accept errors on their cars, just because it's a 911. Same thing happens to Ferrari. In these instances, it's called "character", "personality" or "hard core race car for road use" or similar...

Luckily I think Lotus car owners have a far more mundane down to Earth and practical approach to their car(-s): they want it to go like the clappers. Again - each to his own of course. Me? I like them all, because they are sportscars. Luckily, personally I am not at all a die hard fanatic or defending my own Esprit's errors at all. And I nearly never lie.

I think some of you are right: I think that Lotus passed some great chances.

Suv's? Pah...

Kind regards,

Jacques

[NedaSay]

As I'd like to see some positivity  and less doom and gloom in this thread may I interject with this:

Now testing at the track at Hethel.

I was going to put the picture with the doors closed but somehow it looks just as good with both doors open...

Please resume, normal posting now, nothing more to see here.

Edited December 19, 2019 by NedaSay

[Jacques]

.... at 1680 kilograms,

The Evija is only slightly heavier than my 30 year old Esprit at 1231 Kilo (no fuel),

and only slightly heavier than an Exige S at 933 kilo (no fuel),

while the Exige S was offered at around 1500000 dkr, the Esprit Turbo SE was sold at 1653000 dkr, 

The Evija is priced at only 40000000 dkr, which to the observant reader, is only slightly more expensive.

I'd say simplify, then add lightness.

Then there are all the little duracells inside it that will some day run flat, and to which there are currently no solution of how to propperly  dispose of, where as my 30 year old Esprit, I simply do a burnout, and voila, the tanks are empty. Toyota, the worlds biggest car manufacturer, came up with the idea of using all the burnt out batterycells from electric cars, to pair with solar cells to power all the 7-11 shops in Japan. Hmm, if by 2030 the majority are going to be driving electric cars, we can then expect quite a lot more 7-11 shops on each and every street corner.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/6/20951807/electric-vehicles-battery-recycling

But then it's getting serious, as 27% of emmisions from a cow is CO2. With 1,5 billion cows on the planet, each letting out 2300 kilogram CO2 each year which is 34500¹²  kilogram of CO2, my Esprit makes a max of 313 gr/km, and since I drive some 2500 km per year on average, that makes a total of 782,5 Kilogram of CO2 per year.

That means that I will have to have a total amount of 4408945687 Esprits driving my distance, each year, all driving at the same time, to equal the amount of CO2 the cows make. This equals to half of Planet Earths population in 2019 each driving a 30 year old Lotus Esprit Turbo SE. The total amount of Esprits ever made, will make 8353187,5 kilogram of CO2 each year driving my distance per year, and that will take all of the 10675 Esprits ever made, 413016 years to produce the same amount of CO2, that the collective population of cows makes in 1 year.

Since I am a vegetarian and have been so most of my life, I make no CO2 from cows incl. if I don't do diary products from cows, which means I can drive nearly 3 years in my Esprit for every cow I don't eat. My Esprit, the Corrado G60 and Laverda SFC1000 makes a total of 2 years of driving for every cow I don't eat. Than means I produce only half the CO2 while driving all 3 vehicles. So driving my Lotus is 3 times more CO2 efficient than eating a cow.

 

Hmm... Now I understand Lotus need to drop the Esprit, Elise, Exige and Evora, and make an Evija instead. Makes perfect sense.

But a nice picture it certainly is. It's going to be a great car.

Jacques

[Barrykearley]

Can you please quantify that into the 16oz rump with chips, side salad and onions rings together with a shed load of cider I’m gonna have Saturday night please 👍

[Jacques]

The point here Barry, was to demonstrate how silly it is to drop the curent program and make ev's. Lotus should just not make ugly little suv's possibly electric driven, and compete with every single other car maker, but stick to their ethos.

Kind regards,

jacques

[Loquacious Lew]

 I have no predictions since I'm not  smart enough to know where this is all headed but it seems to me that if I were Lotus and wanted to build something relevant yet still appealing to a wide range of enthusiasts, I'd build a hot hatch or the like. Maybe even try to redefine the segment. I don't know what they can build in the next few years that will replace my Evora but I would love to buy something from them to replace my GTI. 

[C8RKH]

14 hours ago, The Pits said:

Sadly it’s the other way around at Porsche dealers. The customers are the ones sucking up to the dealers, buying cars they don’t even want to get on their obnoxious ’preferred customer list’ they figure it will all be worth it when they can start flipping  the latest GT car for a quick tax free profit.

Just shows what dumb asses they are then.

Cars are very, very, rarely an investment when new. Much better ways to invest exist.

This just confirms to me that Porsche is more about street cred. Lotus is for those who actually want to use their cars.

But of course. I admit my bias.

[Bibs]

21 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Cars are very, very, rarely an investment when new

Porsche GT cars, eg the 911 991 GT3 and Cayman GT4 were being flipped for an easy £50k when they were launched. If you got one, as Jonny says, it's a quick and easy tax free profit but you do have to be on the dealers' 'golden' list to get your hands on one. That's one (of many) reasons I'd never entertain buying and owning a Porsche. 

[C8RKH]

Got that Bibs and understood that, hence why I said very, very rarely. However, how much did they lose on the lesser shite they had to buy to get on the list in the first place?  Also, my understanding is that Porsche take a very dim view of the flippers so it becomes harder to stay a "special" customer if you do that. It's just like a bloody Ponzi scheme to be honest.....

[TheKevlarKid]

28 minutes ago, Bibs said:

Porsche GT cars, eg the 911 991 GT3 and Cayman GT4 were being flipped for an easy £50k when they were launched. If you got one, as Jonny says, it's a quick and easy tax free profit but you do have to be on the dealers' 'golden' list to get your hands on one. That's one (of many) reasons I'd never entertain buying and owning a Porsche. 

Well I've just gone and bought the missus a 718 for Xmas and I'm a lotus die-hard..

I would have loved to put her in a lotus but there is nothing suitable in the current range for her needs as a 2 seater sports daily driver that can be used without having compromise... I didn't take two thoughts about it, there was no contest.

If lotus want to widen their appeal to more of the market then they are going to have to change part of their philosophy at least in certain models they make in the futrue, adding weight and tech (and ease of use) doesn't mean it looses the "lotus" connection you have with the road. The Evora is testament to that already, weighty yes but still a driver's car at heart, just a shame it didn't sell better from the start. 

 

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

 

This just confirms to me that Porsche is more about street cred. Lotus is for those who actually want to use their cars

I'd argue the exact opposite... 

[C8RKH]

10 minutes ago, TheKevlarKid said:

I'd argue the exact opposite... 

I probably should have said drive as it was meant to be driven...

[electro_boy]

@TheKevlarKid was the new Alpine in the running at all?  Or are they all sold out due to the limited numbers?

[TheKevlarKid]

35 minutes ago, electro_boy said:

@TheKevlarKid was the new Alpine in the running at all?  Or are they all sold out due to the limited numbers?

not at all, the only other thing I looked at was a Golf/AudiS3/RS3 as she likes the hatchbacks but presented with this car it was again no contest.

It's a surprise pessie for the missus, not me. She will have never heard of a Alpine...

It's the lowest power version they do (300hp), guards red, shit loads of options (wheels, heated steering, bose etc etc) due to being the dealer demo, 19 plate, they stuck another 12 months warranty on it so it's got 3.25 yrs all for 43k. the missus will never asked or even think about how much power it has,all she will see it's a red porsche, it looks great, it has nice wheels, the roof comes down at the touch of a button, it can get her shopping in with relative ease, she can get in it with relative ease and it plays radio4 on the stereo... Not my bag (give me a pick-up for the week and a lotus for teh evenings and weekends), but for her its going to bring a tear.

 

Lotus need something in their stable that can do the same, hubby has the raw weekend driving machine, missus has the attractive everyday useable.

Edited December 20, 2019 by TheKevlarKid

[TheKevlarKid]

Ask yourself the question... would you buy the missus a current Lotus, the answer is probably yes!! Would she be happy with it? Probably not!! 

Edited December 20, 2019 by TheKevlarKid

[PAR]

5 hours ago, TheKevlarKid said:

not at all, the only other thing I looked at was a Golf/AudiS3/RS3 as she likes the hatchbacks but presented with this car it was again no contest.

 

Lotus need something in their stable that can do the same, hubby has the raw weekend driving machine, missus has the attractive everyday useable.

What about a Ferrari FF? Did not make the list? Sounds like a good alternative the above? Or maybe you just don’t live the wife that much (I mean the how much of an FF).

i think lotus could definitely do something in that space, they have forms.

[NedaSay]

From  AM : 

https://www.am-online.com/news/car-manufacturer-news/2019/12/06/lotus-wants-its-dealer-network-ready-for-sales-growth

[C8RKH]

Wow some interesting numbers there @NedaSay. So 165 dealers globally managed to sell 1630 cars globally - so less than 10 each. Less than 1 a month on average! 

Just 275 cars were sold in the UK between 28 UK dealers (from Lotus website dealer locations map) - so again, just under 10 each per year but about 17% of global sales in the UK.

Just think about that all you guys on here who moan and whinge like f@@k that the dealers are not good enough, need large new swanky showrooms, should not be in an industrial unit etc. Do the maths and come back and tell us how these Dealers can justify the showroom upgrades please?

The number of dealers in the UK is expected to remain at around 25-30, but sounds as though some will go and be replaced judging by the strategy.

Lotus has a 10 year plan to take it to the 80th birthday. Might that just explain why they are not rushing out new special editions just now? Might it be that they have been given the funding assurances they have needed for so many years to actually do the refresh and repositioning of Lotus right this time? After all, we've had the haste due to dwindling cash from Bahoo and JMG, maybe, just maybe, the Chinese are taking a longer time view? I mean, hardly out of character for them is it?

The good news, they care about the way dealers treat and work with customers, rather than the expensive floor tiles in the showroom. Come on, that's great news surely to any one of us who has been in to, and been put off, by the stuffy pretentious showrooms with their stuck up sales guys who look like they'd rather shit on you than actually serve you?  Got to be good for the majority on here who are much more down to earth and genuine surely.

I know, I know, let the flaming begin from the usual suspects who tell me to shut the fook up for being too positive, for not taking off the rose tinted spectacles. Good news is my skin is so thick, flame away, it'll take some time till this piggy gets roasted and loses that optimism.

Just wish the buggers would release some news on the new car so we could finally see with some certainty where they are going with it.

 

 

[The Pits]

Details of next year’s more accessible car have been posted on here several times already. Beyond that we are into a combination of logical deduction and speculation based on what has been publicly spoken about.

It’s now clear that their plan is to lead with Evija and that they consider the current range to be a lost cause. They are on course for what must be the company’s biggest ever loss given the amount of hiring and development going on at Hethel while new car sales fizzle out.

One of the bigger questions for next year is what they’ll do with the current range. Last hurrah editions or interior revamp with Volvo switchgear? The latter would suggest that they plan to let the current cars limp on for a while longer. An Elise Final Edition would be just that. To let them carry on unchanged would suggest a complete lack of interest in the current cars, dealers and customers. It’s only conceivable as a way of culling dealers and distancing themselves from their current fan base.

There is no argument in favour of doing nothing now in any event. I’m not convinced that anyone actually believes  that Lotus are taking their time to do things properly. Doing things properly involves talking to existing customers while reaching out to new ones. One simple thing Ferrari have had a lot of success with is offering customer previews before the press get hold of their new cars. Helps customers to feel that Ferrari puts them first and helps get cars sold before they’re officially unveiled.

 

 

[Mark030358]

Bought two brand new Exige’s in the last 5 years and guess what.... not a follow up from the factory. `They don’t care about the punters at all....

just my 2p worth

 

[C8RKH]

2 hours ago, Mark030358 said:

Bought two brand new Exige’s in the last 5 years and guess what.... not a follow up from the factory. `They don’t care about the punters at all....

just my 2p worth

 

So what other cars have you bought, from other manufacturers, in that time where the factory followed up directly with you? And I don't mean those automated surveys via the phone or email etc.

Bearing in mind that also, in these days of GDPR, the dealers are not actually allowed to share your information with the factory unless you expressly give permission first.

[NedaSay]

I think it is fair to acknowledge that the company - even-though they have been on a big spending/hiring spree -  is still small. Therefore workforce and ressource allocation at Hethel  has been and is still somewhat a challenge. The Marketing/PR/Aftersales depts were - still are - all really small. Especially when JMG had to downsize the company from 1200 to a little under 800 when he took the reigns, if I remember well. Under his guardianship the goal was clear ; produce refreshed models on a shoe string, make sure they are solid enough not to have aftesales crippled by requests for fixes and keep the lights on. In more ways than one he has succeeded doing that. Proof is we are still here today talking about our beloved company.

Then Geely came along and they started funnelling money into the company, quite a lot of money, but it doesn't mean results are going to be instant. Geely took 4 years at Volvo to present a brand new car, the XC90. And the Volvo brand did survive on refreshed and retooled cars for a while, and theY presented prototypes... Volvo was/is significantly bigger than Lotus and had a lot more tools to work with even before Geely acquired them.

Now, Lotus have one global car right now, the Evora, should it get a refresh?! Well, I would say yes if they are intent on keeping it going for another 2/3 years and selling in big numbers. But by big what do I mean? A few hundreds? A thousand, two? How deep should the refresh be?

Should Exige and/or Elise get refreshed. Well one question is in how many markets are the cars available in and are going to be available in the future?Right now, they do sell them in Europe, the Middle East, and Asia-Pacific but not in China for some reasons. Here again you can ask the same question, if you refresh the car how big is the refresh supposed to be? If we consider that they have been thoroughly rejuvenated style wise recently, the only aspects you can now refresh are powertrain and interior. Both require re-homologation. And Oh yes mandatory side airbags on both cars are going to be tricky to install, not impossible just very tricky and costly. Again how many cars can they sell? 

Last I checked, the Exige is the brand's best seller. But isn't it being replaced soon?  So then, what is the point? Do we give the car a refresh for the sake of a giving the car a refresh. I believe it take very little time to put together a final edition when you only put a coat of paint,  a sticker and some extra options (leather, alcantara, bluetooth...) But I do believe that Lotus has done a lot of that in a not so distant past and maybe too much (just my impression).  I think it is better to have the next sport car unveiled before announcing the final edition, it makes the entire thing more tangible.

I do think Geely knows that the company is headed toward the biggest loss in its history, that is a non starter conversation. Also in the big picture of the group, this loss will be just another dotted line. Geely Group (ZGH) is healthy, Geely Auto (Geely, Lynk & Co, Geometry) are on course to salvage year on year growth, yet again, despite having to course correct and bring their initial objective back in line with the economic realities of 2019, they are not going to reach their initial goal of 1.51m cars sold but should reach over 1.36M cars while Volvo's sales are also up thanks to the XC40 selling like hot cakes and the company beating the market odds, edging ever closer to 700,000 cars sold. 

So Lotus is now part of a group that sells over 2M cars per annum and is profitable regardless of Lotus performance for the time being. Not that Lotus is not supposed to stand on its own to feet ever,  but for the time being Lotus is the baby of the family and Geely has proven before that they were a patient, attentive and caring parent, without being the helicopter kind.

So even-though I'm not the type, and many of us here - me included - would like to see tangible changes manifesting... Lets be patient and lets hope that, despite the fact that I am sceptical of the early impact of some department heads, the amount of work done behind the scene will deliver the goods we are waiting for.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by NedaSay

[The Pits]

The popular notion of Geely pumping money into Lotus is not correct that is not how they operate. They don’t see Lotus as a charity case, passion project or status symbol like Bugatti. They expect them to wipe their own nose and will soon run out of patience and, I believe, will radically course correct the business plan if Evija fails to break even and next year’s car doesn’t sell 5000 units. Volvo didn’t abandon their existing range, dealers or customers. Most of Phil Popham’s interview answers are really aimed at reassuring Mr Feng. Talks of soon outgrowing Hethel like it’s a fait accompli. We haven’t heard a convincing word on either how or why this will happen. A nice looking new Evora based car appearing out of thin air will only remind the company that they need to build from their existing and customer base, many of which are migrating to the likes of McLaren and Alpine as we speak. Forget your customers and they will soon forget about you. Doing things properly will need to involve actually doing things at some point!

[KAS-118]

16 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Wow some interesting numbers there @NedaSay. So 165 dealers globally managed to sell 1630 cars globally - so less than 10 each. Less than 1 a month on average! 

Just 275 cars were sold in the UK between 28 UK dealers (from Lotus website dealer locations map) - so again, just under 10 each per year but about 17% of global sales in the UK.

Just think about that all you guys on here who moan and whinge like f@@k that the dealers are not good enough, need large new swanky showrooms, should not be in an industrial unit etc. Do the maths and come back and tell us how these Dealers can justify the showroom upgrades please?

The number of dealers in the UK is expected to remain at around 25-30, but sounds as though some will go and be replaced judging by the strategy.

 

Just a bit confused by these numbers - as this article suggests that there's only 16 at the moment - which will grow to 30? https://www.motortrader.com/motor-trader-news/automotive-news/lotus-wants-uk-dealer-network-grow-30-outlets-20-12-2019

[C8RKH]

2 hours ago, KAS-118 said:

Just a bit confused by these numbers - as this article suggests that there's only 16 at the moment - which will grow to 30? https://www.motortrader.com/motor-trader-news/automotive-news/lotus-wants-uk-dealer-network-grow-30-outlets-20-12-2019

Go the UK Lotus web site, go to dealers, bring up the map and you will see there are currently some 28 dealers on the map. If the number is wrong then Lotus needs to update its website. The article suggests that some dealers will go, and they replaced by others, but the net result is a similar 25-30 dealers in the UK.