Future of Lotus

[blindside]

1 hour ago, Bibs said:

I know a fair number of people who have had them but very few who would have more of them. 

I thought Mclaren had a fairly hard core of loyal repeat buyers. I personally know 2 people who are repeat buyers & that's in N. Ireland with their nearest authorised Macca dealer being in Glasgow. That said, although its a few years old this article is very revealing 😁

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motoring/cars-mclaren-what-do-workers-drive

[C8RKH]

43 minutes ago, The Pits said:

McLaren bashing is currently all the rage. JayEmm is just jumping on the band wagon, it’s helped his channel no end by the look of it. After putting up with years of prejudice against Lotus I’m not inclined to join in with it, especially without any first hand experience.

They’ve ruffled a lot of feathers among the supercar establishment. Making the usual names look a bit slow is probably the biggest insult you can dish out. Make no mistake, Ferrari’s turbocharged 488 was a direct response to the 12C wiping the floor with the 458. Lots of fanboys wish to see them fail. Porsche fans tend to mock and sneer at anything built in Britain anyway. Makes it easier to hand over huge cheques to the Germans I guess?

Very fair points. AndrewC on here has a Macca and to my knowledge, no problems, and he is still very happy with it. It certainly looks great!

[Bibs]

2 hours ago, The Pits said:

12C wiping the floor with the 458

I thought a lot of that was the other way around. The 12C was a technical genius but the 458 was the better drivers car? Very similar to a lot of German cars, the 12C was exceptional at what it did but was no fun doing it. 

I've been around Brands in a Cayman and mid-low 50's were easy but I'd be much happier taking over a minute around the Indy in an S1 Elise. Completely different experience and the Elise was always a lot more fun from a driving perspective. The Cayman may have well been on a TV with an xbox controller in my hand, it was very sterile and I thought that similar to what people said regarding the 12C vs 458.

Quote

So we’re going to ignore the empirically ‘better’ car, and choose to take home the car that delivers a sucker punch to the soul - the Ferrari 458 Italia. Because sometimes winning isn’t just about being faster.

^ From Tom Ford writing for Top Gear in 2011. 

https://www.evo.co.uk/ferrari/458/7405/ferrari-458-beats-mclaren-mp4-12c

& Evo agree, although I'm surprised a Porsche didn't come top even though it wasn't in the test!

[Bibs]

1 hour ago, blindside said:

I thought Mclaren had a fairly hard core of loyal repeat buyers.

We all met and talk to different people, I wasn't offering an analysis any more than that I know a dozen friends who have had them, and only 2 who have had more than 1 of them. That's all. Your mileage may vary. 

By comparison, there aren't that many people who only have 1 Lotus once they've had 1. I'm on my 5th now in around 20 years of pretty much always having one in the drive and can't imagine not owning an Lotus of some description at any point. 

[The Pits]

Simply in terms of performance. 458 and 488 claimed performance figures are not that far apart. However the 458s were in the great Ferrari tradition of massaged numbers. 488s are more honest and able to be reproduced outside of Maranello. 12C exposed the 458, real world difference was enormous. Ferrari had to turbocharge the 488 just to keep up. They are proud Italians, being the fastest matters.

Ferrari and McLaren are the bitterest of rivals going back to the 70's. They continue to have a profound effect on each other. McLaren have taken strides to make their cars more emotional, Ferrari have gotten increasingly technical and cranked up performance since McLaren showed up on the scene. I don't think Ferrari consider Porsche to be rivals at all really. But McLaren... whole other story.

[Bibs]

That's no bad thing, the drivers are the winners from both sides!

[The Pits]

World has gone completely mad. These new top end supercars really do accelerate like superbikes now. Even quicker at high speed. That has never been the case before.

McLaren really didn't hold back with the 720S, pushed it's performance into hypercar territory. It's giving everyone headaches, including McLaren. The £1m P1 can't do a lot more in a straight line or around a track. It takes away something from the megabucks Senna's achievements too. It's absolutely nuts. For reference my ZX12R remains the fastest thing I’ve ever been on down Hangar Straight, hitting an indicated 165mph. My Suzuki GSXR 1000 at the time couldn’t pass 160mph. 720S owners are seeing 170mph down there and those who know Silverstone will tell you it’s not that long a straight. 140mph used to be my benchmark for fast in a car there.

 

[blindside]

Gone mad in a good way Jonny! Now possible to buy a decent used 720S for under £150k. Even more bargains are likely for cash buyers in 6 months or so when the post corona pain really has kicked into the economy.

 

[The Pits]

I hear you on that one but these cars are distorting notions of fast. Testers are saying the 600LT doesn’t feel ridiculously  quick in comparison and a more useable level. From a lightweight McLaren with near 600bhp! Not that long ago that would have been a life-changing experience so I think it takes something away to have the bar set so high. Much like other cars feel numb after a Lotus, so there’s a danger that a lot of fast cars would feel underwhelming to someone used to a 720S.

My Evora feels properly naughty to me still. Much as I’d love a 720S, I wouldn’t like to lose the appreciation of what is by normal standards a seriously fast car. Nice pre-rationalisation for you there! 😁

[The Pits]

720S just sold on Collecting Cars for £124500 to a bloke called Tex. If that was you @Tex congrats! Epic car, fab spec, killer price! 👍👍👍

[The Pits]

Swiftly back on topic....

Looking amazing and exotic is certainly going to help the next car find some homes. The Cayman is actually quite awkward looking from most angles, to say the least. For a car of undeniable capability it's remarkable how undesireable I find it. Many 'worse' cars appeal a lot more. Boxster Spyder for a start. But not everyone wants to be gawped at, a Cayman will certainly end most journeys without being noticed. There are advantages to that for a daily driver.

Having seen the early design renders for the next car it looks like it belongs in a completely different catagory to the Cayman. There's a reasonable chance that the management might seek to tone it down for a number of reasons. Firstly to distance it further from the Evija and to also send out the right message that this is a daily useable car and make it more obviously Caymany. That seems to be increasingly important to those now steering the ship. There's a lot of baggage they want Lotus to get away from, not least people like me! They won't be keen on anything that reinforces the preconceptions that Lotus only make tiny, austere, track cars.

However, that's if they manage to deliver it as a Cayman level car. Note the £55k-£100k spread recently mentioned is very broad, deliberately so to keep their options open. I think the big decision they're having to take right now is where to position this new car.

This is of course pure speculation entirely for lockdown entertainment purposes but I reckon a Cayman/Alpine level car at the £55+k end, would mean toned down styling, a few compromises made inside and 4 cyl turbo more likely. 

The £100+k baby McLaren/Esprit level car means going all-in on styling, higher-end interior and V6.

Which would you personally prefer and be more likely to buy? £55k basic Cayman competitor or £100+k junior supercar?

[Frickin_idiot]

I’m interested to see the design renders - are they available online?

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Just the Usual Suspects’ kids on school holidays and photo shop. Nothing realistic yet.

[The Pits]

No official renders online to my knowledge. No way anyone’s going to share them if they had them either. Nothing to gain, everything to lose by doing so.

[mg4lotus]

I thought they were taking design cues from the Evija

[scotty435]

Not sure which side of the fence I am on in this thread🤔 Constantly criticising the groups future products and the direction they are heading is not helping anyone, especially as it looks like we are all reading between the lines and coming to a conclusion that things are in dire straits or as in the other camp things are looking rosy and the Group needs time. To be honest we do not have a clue what’s coming because the company as not released enough information to make a fair judgment and yes they take some blame for that lack of information. Do you have a bigger say in the future products if you only buy new cars from the factory as opposed buying from the used market that’s up for debate, for me having purchased two of my five car Lotus history from new I would say no because there is a very likely chance that if you are buying a used Lotus the previous owner could well be buying a new lotus product. Lotus have always been at the forefront of cutting design and technology until the last two decades when they have not had two pennies to rub together and yet still managed to make great cars. So let’s hope the big investment in the brand keeps the present owners happy, but even more so brings new customers for the first time and like US LOT the present enthusiasts it will be the first of many Lotus that they buy. Challenging times for the automotive industry and for the whole world. Let’s hope a some good comes out of these dark times and we carry on with this lively debate for years to come.

[yeller77]

Sums things up well. However. The unease comes in that this exact thread post could have been made, and probably was, 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago (?). Perhaps, though, that uncertainty is the other part of the Lotus DNA where those evolutionary stresses through the years, including Colin's day, still result in coming up with some cracking cars that keep us excited and wanting more.

[NedaSay]

On 28/04/2020 at 08:41, mg4lotus said:

I see a lot of posts on here talking about the new Esprit. I'm probably being naïve, but why isn't the Evora the new Esprit?

Cause it wasn't meant to be an esprit successor from its very inception.

[Techyd]

11 hours ago, The Pits said:

Which would you personally prefer and be more likely to buy? £55k basic Cayman competitor or £100+k junior supercar?

My first thought was basic Cayman competitor ~55k.  But then I corrected myself because I don't want a Cayman competitor per-say, I want a Lotus albeit, with usable every day capacity and I want it to have interesting and innovative design ideas and not be 'corporately' styled like all Porsches.  The podcast from a few days back was both interesting and momentously dull at the same time.

So picking up from previous posts in this thread.  It has been several years now and I have to say we're simply not getting the information that should be coming from the management team now.  I am honestly thinking that they don't yet have clarity on what they want to Lotus to be; its corporately fueled with masses of cash yes, but not charismatically led.  This Lotus DNA isn't just car dynamics.  Its a charm, an embodiment of charismatic, enthusiastic and passionate* personalities that started with Colin Chapman.

*about cars people!

 

 

[C8RKH]

7 minutes ago, Techyd said:

I am honestly thinking that they don't yet have clarity on what they want to Lotus to be; its corporately fuelled with masses of cash yes, but not charismatically led.  This Lotus DNA isn't just car dynamics.  Its a charm, an embodiment of charismatic, enthusiastic and passionate* personalities that started with Colin Chapman.

*about cars people!

 

 

100% absolutely, in my humble opinion, spot on, totally correct. We are not saying Popham and others are not good or great people. But they come across as "Corporate People" (again not a bad thing). 

[The Pits]

I think there are endemic problems within our big corporations and the sort of people that succeed in these environments. Chapman type characters probably wouldn't do very well within a large corporation, they don't play the game and haven't got the patience for the procrastination and meetings about meetings. In my experience it's often the people that aren't especially talented but are smart enough to know their limitations that often thrive. They quickly work out how to survive on bluff and bluster and know exactly when to keep their mouths shut and who's arse to kiss. The proliferation of buzz words is a perfect example. They're a way of making you sound more clever than you are, that you know more than anyone else. The core competency here being the ability to level-up by picking the low-hanging fruit to really get the ideation needle moving.

 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

The very “talented” are the ones who start a conversation by saying something like “this isn’t just PR guff...” and then continue to spout just PR guff.

[Frickin_idiot]

40 minutes ago, The Pits said:

I think there are endemic problems within our big corporations and the sort of people that succeed in these environments. Chapman type characters probably wouldn't do very well within a large corporation, they don't play the game and haven't got the patience for the procrastination and meetings about meetings. In my experience it's often the people that aren't especially talented but are smart enough to know their limitations that often thrive. They quickly work out how to survive on bluff and bluster and know exactly when to keep their mouths shut and who's arse to kiss. The proliferation of buzz words is a perfect example. They're a way of making you sound more clever than you are, that you know more than anyone else. The core competency here being the ability to level-up by picking the low-hanging fruit to really get the ideation needle moving.

 

Astute observations. I’d echo those comments having worked in medium to larger size organisations. 

[C8RKH]

53 minutes ago, The Pits said:

The core competency here being the ability to level-up by picking the low-hanging fruit to really get the ideation needle moving.

You forgot that we "need to fully leverage our assets, mobilise our talent pool, to ensure that we have aligned the goals, optimised our ducks, so they are all lined up, along the shaft of the arrow, to create a lazer focus on our target and maximise our opportunities to obfuscate the real outcome. We are seeking to drive value to our whole stakeholder groups whilst securing a net zero carbon neutral outcome for the new normal world of tomorrow that will deliver exponential benefits for our customers and ensure a product that delivers, for the drivers, and their passengers, and Costa and Starbucks, through a ruggedised repository for cardboard vessels of hot liquid".  Then shut up, sit back, and watch everyone go wow and nod their heads in agreement at the outstanding strategy that you have just not clearly articulated.

[The Pits]

You just have to go one better don't you! 😁 Stick that on your CV and send it in to Lotus, just what they're looking for!