Future of Lotus

[KAS-118]

On 02/05/2020 at 09:08, DarrylV8 said:

But would you spend £153K+ on a limited run Alfa Romeo Giulia GTA even with 533horses?

Great though that car is; the Quadrifoglio is just over £65k and has 510bhp.

OK so that has lots of carbon (but supposedly so did the QF) - so I jus don't see why you would spend £153k on it for the additional performance that you're not going to use very often.

Had they produced something akin to a modern day Montreal - I could perhaps see it; or maybe if they had got another 100-150bhp above the QF. 

IMHO Alfa target price for the QF should have been £80-85k.

I hope Lotus aren't going to bring out the 'new Esprit' with say 455bhp and think - hey, the Evora 'Phil Spec' is £83k, lets sell these for £200k 😱

[KAS-118]

On 02/05/2020 at 15:16, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

You’re missing part of the point. There was no Lexus brand. It was Toyota. Should Lotus attempt to go upmarket by creating a new brand, such as Loxus or something? The LS400 was a copy of another company’s product. I hope Lotus doesn’t just make another Cayman or 911. I want to see a new Lotus.

I don't think Lotus need to change brand identity.

Toyota produced cheap cars - and when they tried selling more expensive ones - needed to change their brand identity to, in part, justify the premium price.

Lotus went 'up-market' in the mid-1970's - and I'm sure I recall someone from Geely saying that they were once comparable with Ferrari.

I catullus think there is a market for a brand in the £60-£100k price band which would be attractive to the 'expensive' BMW, Audi and Jaguar drivers by being a bit more rarer and unique and not having a lot of 'basic' mass-market models which look very similar to the more expensive ones. 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Not particularly relevant in a thread about the Future of Lotus, but I have a copy of the Autocar road test of the Renault GTA V6 Turbo dated 23 July 1986.

They list 6 cars as The Opposition. Here they all are in price order only.
£29,033 DeTomaso Pantera

£27,547 Porsche 944 Turbo

£23,905 Renault GTA V6 Turbo

£23,440 Lotus Esprit Turbo

£20,395 Jaguar XJ-S 3.6

£18,275 TVR 350i FHC

£17,751 Nissan 300ZX Turbo

What would their respective values be now if you had bought one of each new and kept in mint condition?

 

[C8RKH]

17 minutes ago, KAS-118 said:

a brand in the £60-£100k price band which would be attractive to the 'expensive' BMW, Audi and Jaguar drivers by being a bit more rarer and unique and not having a lot of 'basic' mass-market models which look very similar to the more expensive ones

Erm isn't that exactl;y where Jaguar, BMW and Audi are and exactly what they have done? I mean every 3rd BMW is NOT M badged these days. Merc have more AMG models than I have nasal hairs (and I have a lot!) etc.  It's hard to tell apart the X1, X2, X3, X4, X5 and X6 - 6, yes 6 different SUVs and people buy them to feel special and different!  Then you have the M1, M2, M3, M4, M5, M6, M7, and probably the M52, M62, M74, M11 and god knows what else. All look identical with some being shrunk and some on steroids.

Would it not be great if Lotus had 3 or 4 models, different price points, all hugely focused on the driver, but with packages to suit the different buyers?  You could argue the Elise AND the Exige are too hardcore, too similar in many ways. The Evora is just sublime but no one knows about it. Paddleshift or manual with 550bhp and it would slay EVERY 911 this side of a Turbo S or GT3.  I'd pay £125k for that rather than buy a Macca, Jaguar, Porsche etc.

 

[KAS-118]

1 minute ago, C8RKH said:

Erm isn't that exactl;y where Jaguar, BMW and Audi are and exactly what they have done? I mean every 3rd BMW is NOT M badged these days. Merc have more AMG models than I have nasal hairs (and I have a lot!) etc.  It's hard to tell apart the X1, X2, X3, X4, X5 and X6 - 6, yes 6 different SUVs and people buy them to feel special and different!  Then you have the M1, M2, M3, M4, M5, M6, M7, and probably the M52, M62, M74, M11 and god knows what else. All look identical with some being shrunk and some on steroids.

Errrhhhhh...that's my point.

There are a large number of cars that are sold at that price point that are bases on more bog-standard cars'.

I think there is therefore a market at that price point - where you could sell something that is a 'bit different'.

1 minute ago, C8RKH said:

Would it not be great if Lotus had 3 or 4 models, different price points, all hugely focused on the driver, but with packages to suit the different buyers?  You could argue the Elise AND the Exige are too hardcore, too similar in many ways. The Evora is just sublime but no one knows about it. Paddleshift or manual with 550bhp and it would slay EVERY 911 this side of a Turbo S or GT3.  I'd pay £125k for that rather than buy a Macca, Jaguar, Porsche etc.

IMHOI, in addition to the Evija, Lotus need a 'Elise' type car - perhaps with a version going into Exige territory; an Esprit/Evora (the latter which I consider to be really only a 2-seater because the rear are unusable other than for someone who needs a baby seat - or is a Chihuahua) ; and  proper  2+2 Coupe (Elite/Eclat).

They err towards the side of driver focus (especially the Elsie) but should not be 'impracticable' to such a degree that only a masochist would want one. 

[Techyd]

On 02/05/2020 at 10:47, The Pits said:

It has often been said that the Mercedes Benz S class is consistently the best engineered car in the world

FWIW the latest E-Class is well below par! Build quality I would say is fine but ride comfort and noise levels have turned out to be quite shocking....so a much smaller mountain to climb if Mercedes remains a benchmark.

[KAS-118]

21 minutes ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Not particularly relevant in a thread about the Future of Lotus, but I have a copy of the Autocar road test of the Renault GTA V6 Turbo dated 23 July 1986.

They list 6 cars as The Opposition. Here they all are in price order only.
£29,033 DeTomaso Pantera

£27,547 Porsche 944 Turbo

£23,905 Renault GTA V6 Turbo

£23,440 Lotus Esprit Turbo

£20,395 Jaguar XJ-S 3.6

£18,275 TVR 350i FHC

£17,751 Nissan 300ZX Turbo

What would their respective values be now if you had bought one of each new and kept in mint condition?

 

Not sure of their present value - but according to the Bank of Englands Inflation calculator that Esprit would be £70k at todays value - so the Evora has gone 'up-market' by £10-15k 

[electro_boy]

What car would I like Lotus to make?  Hmmm tricky one...

On one hand I'd like them to make a ~£50K Alpine competitor.  I really I'd like them to stick to supercharged engines ( I like the power delivery) but I guess a turbo inline 4 will be the only option stay competitive, regarding power and emissions.  It needs to have easy ingress, even easier than the Evora.  Current Evora levels of interior quality and I think in terms of tech what is offered in Evora is fine, reversing camera, Sat Nav / Car play, Bluetooth, done!  I think it will help get them in the mainstream a bit more, sell higher volumes and help to generate a bit more revenue and profit.  A bit like an updated S2 Elan but with rear wheel dive. I think that maybe better for the company.  

But for purely selfish reasons I'd like them to make to make a £100K junior supercar ie an update to the Evora (ideally if they can make that for ~£50K then even better as I can just about afford one 😉 ).  I'd want a proper drivetrain in there, don't mind if its bought in from outside or developed in house but I don't want compromises to the layout.  I want it longitudinally mounted, get the weight lower down and shift the weight balance just a tiny bit further forward (get rid of the +2) and a proper gearbox with a good shifting action.   I know the latest Elige and Evora models have a good shift but its taken ~8years for them to get there.  With a proper drivetrain hopefully they should be able to produce a great shift from the start without having to spend a long time to develop it.  Also if they can shed a bit more weight from the Evora then even would be great but imagine thats gonna be pretty hard for something that isn't a stripped down cup version.  I think I'm asking for Exige handling with Evora refinement?

 

[tim_marra]

Isn't the Evora regarded as the better handling car though?

[C8RKH]

24 minutes ago, tim_marra said:

Isn't the Evora regarded as the better handling car though?

On the road yes. For sure.

 

1 hour ago, KAS-118 said:

should not be 'impracticable' to such a degree that only a masochist would want one.

I actually think this is dumb - the many on here who have met me know I ain't no whisper thin size 10 whippet. I'm more like a St. Bernard that's eaten all the pies. BUT, I have an Evora 410 that I have no issues getting in and out of at all - in fact, bizarrely my S90 is harder for me to get in because of the door pillar position between the front and rear doors!  I also have a VX220 - so similar to S2 Elise for getting in and out of - and I have no problem getting into it, driving for 300 plus miles for a track day, doing the track day, then driving back.  I'm not brave enough to be a masochist (my safeword is "chocolate" lol) and do not believe you need to be a masochist or have masochistic tendencies to have or want a Lotus. You do need to be willing to make a compromise or two. And there in is the rub. These days people want (1) the badge and status  (2)  to belong to the right crowd  (3) for other people to think "oh wow, he/she's got a new xxxxxxxx (insert porsche/bmw/audi/merc model name here) so they must be doing really well".

However, for those that are willing to step out of the safety and anonymity of the crowd, a whole new pleasure dome exists for you to explore.  As my mate Frankie would say, "Welcome......" 

[KAS-118]

 

16 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

I actually think this is dumb - the many on here who have met me know I ain't no whisper thin size 10 whippet. I'm more like a St. Bernard that's eaten all the pies. BUT, I have an Evora 410 that I have no issues getting in and out of at all - in fact, bizarrely my S90 is harder for me to get in because of the door pillar position between the front and rear doors!  I also have a VX220 - so similar to S2 Elise for getting in and out of - and I have no problem getting into it, driving for 300 plus miles for a track day, doing the track day, then driving back.  I'm not brave enough to be a masochist (my safeword is "chocolate" lol) and do not believe you need to be a masochist or have masochistic tendencies to have or want a Lotus. You do need to be willing to make a compromise or two. And there in is the rub. These days people want (1) the badge and status  (2)  to belong to the right crowd  (3) for other people to think "oh wow, he/she's got a new xxxxxxxx (insert porsche/bmw/audi/merc model name here) so they must be doing really well".

However, for those that are willing to step out of the safety and anonymity of the crowd, a whole new pleasure dome exists for you to explore.  As my mate Frankie would say, "Welcome......" 

Do you now....so just to clarify, you think its dumb to say that Lotus should NOT produce a car that only a masochist would want. I find that odd, as the way you desrcribe the Evora and the Vauxhall is that they are outwith that definition.

My definition of dumb is something, or someone, who fails to adapt to a changing circumstances and/or apply itself properly to the situation that it is faced with.

Of course, you do need to make a compromise - and a manufacturer needs to decide where it wants to be in respect of that compromise. Both a Caterham Super 7 and a Maxda MX5 are small 2-seater sports cars. The Caterham errs towards the track to such an extent it has little comfort, practicality and indeed lacks many modern day features including safety features. A Mazda MX5 errs more towards comfort and everyday usability. 

Of course someone may want a out and out racer and buy the Caterham - but the problem is, very very very few people will want to use it as an everyday car.

The Mazda MX5 is still 'impractical' compared to a Hot-Hatch or SUV, but many people do use them as 'every day' cars. They have space to store things, you don't get drowned when it rains.

But everyone I've known who owns one still thinks they are great driver cars and great fun.- and for the masochist's, you can modify them and strip the niceties out of them.

Personally, I have enough faith in Lotus to think that they are capable of producing cars that do have a nod towards some practicality  (just enough to make it liveable as a daily user) but still make it a dynamic and fun car to drive - and those traits are not mutually exclusive to making it 'reasonably' satisfactory to get in and out of - as indeed you confirm your Evora is. 

 

[C8RKH]

What I thought dumb was your inference, that I may have read wrong, that the current Lotus cars are just for masochists and so I, in a light hearted way by taking the piss out of myself, tried to explain that I do not think that Lotus cars are just for masochists.

So for that you call me dumb. I think you need to lighten up a bit.  As do I. But then I'm just tucking into one of the largest scones ever made - it's hard being married to a wonderful baker! So hard to lighten up.

Keep smiling. Keep safe.

 

[KAS-118]

You seem to have misread my posts twice then. Because I did not call you 'dumb' in my first post 4 hours ago - and as far as I'm aware a 'mascochist' isn't necessarily 'dumb' - nor did I call you 'dumb' in the 2nd post 1 hour ago - I merely set out what my definition of 'dumb' was - in response to you setting out your own definition - which was that Lotus should NOT produce a car that only a masochist would want.

Keep safe too. 

[Dan E]

Both to your bedroom, no dinner, phones and iPads you leave down here with me 😂👍

[C8RKH]

But that only leaves me one thing to play with and you told me to stop playing with that already!!! I'll go blind...........

[KAS-118]

On 02/05/2020 at 12:51, PAR said:

For Lotus there are 2 potential markets, the over 100k market equivalent which is where the Esprit used to be and the 50-60k market where you compete with more traditional mass volume brands.

In the first category, prices keep going up for the leaders Ferrari and Mclaren as price sensitivity of customers is low (people would rather pay 150-200 for a dream car than 110 for a super good car)

To sell cars at more than 100k, the best chances Lotus has are probably electric cars as they would be early there and can be differentiated. Having the Evija has a halo car makes sense for that and it would be new customers.

for the 50-60k segment, they need so be able to have the volumes and to make good margins at those prices. I am pretty sure the investment in the factory is to make this possible but they will need have the network too. Probably feasible selling 10k car a year (basically 10x the current Elise volumes and what was about the peak volume for the Elise ever)

In my opinion, like Volvo, they have to do things differently from what is out there rather than just better as better will always be too difficult to judge.

As you say - it looks like Lotus are aiming for 10K plus https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/lotus-ceo-outlines-ambitious-production-expansion-plan-electric-future. I think Ferrari sold over 10k for the first time last year - and Aston Martin about 6.5k; so I can't help but think Lotus will need to aim at a majority of cars below the £100k range to get those kind of figures..

I agree that they will need to increase the dealer network, but I guess they could share some Volvo garages? Having said that Tesla see to be doing OK with few dealers - and I think (in the UK at least) Polestar are primarily looking at on-line sales - at least initially. 

 

[electro_boy]

To clarify my post above.  I think the Exige handles better on a track and the Evora better on the road.  If paying over £100K for a car then I want both, otherwise I'd rather save the money and make a compromise with a Exige or Evora depending on which side of the compromise fence I wanted to be on. 

[The Pits]

That's exactly what the GT430 offers in my opinion. It might not match the Exige 430 for ultimate lap time but it runs it very close. Closer than it has any right to given a weight penalty of over 200kg. Exige is only faster through superior power:weight, it shows up mostly on the brakes in my experience and the Evora was actually the more benign, balanced and composed car on the limit. This is of course subject to the set up of the Exige Cup 430 I drove, I'm sure it could be improved by someone who knew what they were doing with the dampers.

 

 

[electro_boy]

Oh nice video you made there, not seen that before, thanks for sharing.  Hmm I guess what I want is already here then? 🤔  Errmmm... can I have more of then 😀

On a serious note, I guess I'd like Lotus to make a more refined (from an engineering point of view not comfort or refinement of that kind) and a properly updated version of the Evora GT430 not just a little tweak here and there.

It is genuinely is amazing what they can do with a drive train really not designed for this packaging and performance level and how good a 10 year old chassis design can happily cope with adding an extra 50% more power than it originally was launched with and compete with the best cars in the world.

But I'm sure there's all kinds of extra performance gains or weight loss opportunities if the engineers had components properly designed for the packaging they intend.  I bet if they were allowed to create a new chassis and drivetrain they could find significant gains on top of the amazing levels they are currently achieving.

Now I'm no automotive engineer so that ask maybe out of reach for a car costing £100K or only achievable by selling the volumes Porchse do but I would love for Lotus to start manufacturing cars with less packaging compromises and having to use their ingenuity to work around and reduce the compromises.  It would be great if the engineers could focus more of their efforts on performance rather than work arounds.

[The Pits]

Yup a Lotus with a big development budget was always the dream. Though it’s often been said that we’d never have had a creation like the Exige from a big company. It would have been watered down by committees, too much money at stake for anything so extreme, the need to appeal to a wide audience would have resulted in a more conservative, more sensible, less exciting outcome. Other hateful nonsense like being restricting the engine to ‘protect’ the Evora and allow future token power upgrades. 

Regardless, expensively engineered thoroughly developed and optimised versions of what we already have is a compelling thought. It was a chance squandered by Dany Bahar. Sadly I fear the crowd we have now have very different priorities and little appreciation of the current cars. I don’t think we’ll see lower, longitudinal mounted more engines for instance, I still dream about an Elise with the GT86 flat four but I don’t think they would see the business case for it or believe anyone really cares where engines go, as the 911 continues to prove. But by happy accident we might just get a last update on the current cars with more modern Volvo sourced interior switchgear. I did wonder if the Elise announcement last week was going to feature some new interior parts at the very least but it wasn’t to be. Another missed opportunity to move things on but new crowd just will not invest time or money in the current cars.

I like the designs themselves but the presentation was cheap and very poorly done, I genuinely thought one of them was grey and gold. We had to tolerate stuff like this with JMG because he had no money. Yet we’re told Popham has access to over £1.5bn. I thought we were long past the days of selling cars based on cheap CG renders? It reinforces negative stereotypes about Lotus and sends out the message that nothing has changed right at the time when giant strides need to be taken. I could genuinely do better colour matches myself. How those renders got past Popham and his many very well paid new recruits is alarming frankly. No pride. No progress. 

Remember we were supposed to be seeing the Evora based new car this year which should have meant some final editions of the current cars already revealed and on sale. Instead all we’ve had so far is a return to a 2015 spec Evora. I have no doubt the GT410 is a very fine car but it’s a retro step. Necessary perhaps but a day late and a dollar short. Now a very half-hearted attempt at flogging a few Elises. I don’t get the business case at all. 100 Elises is neither here nor there in terms of revenue, drop in the ocean of debt. If it was an attempt to promote the brand then you don’t putting out cheap renders will undo that. Can’t be the final edition Elise. If that follows soon it will make 100 people very upset. The mystery as to what they are actually up to in Hethel these days continues.

[C8RKH]

I fear that the dreaded "committees" are watering down things already, to an extent where we get washed out "renders" of new editions (they all had a black interior did they not on the external shots?).  I am sure they have a strategy that they are executing, however, for the real Lotus enthusiast and fan boys and girls the last 2 years has been painful with little (other than the stonking if we are honest) Evija - but that is a $2m hyper Halo car that most traditional owners will never be able to afford - I am not aware of anyone on here having placed an order, I am aware of one or two who boasted that they could place an order on Seloc. I am sure everyone who can and does buy one will be delighted with it. The other 99.9% just need to be more patient I guess. Oh, and still no news re a dealer or servicing option (Approved) for owners in Scotland which has been, and is, a solid base for Lotus ownership and support. I believe for a couple of years at least Murray's sold more Evora's than any other UK dealer for instance.

[KAS-118]

I think the actual production of New Cars/New Editions has been delayed because of Coronavirus - hence its necessary to resort to CGI - but at least we can appreciate what they'll look like to a greater extent.

Perhaps I'm an optimist - but I see this all as somehow building momentum to a big reveal - by getting the Lotus name i front of the public again. The Evija was a big 'spike' in the Lotus interest levels when it was announced - and there has been 'updates' on that. Popham is giving interviews hinting at the future direction of Lotus (albeit I'm still unclear if its hybrid or EV - I personally hope the latter), the the 'leaked' new Esprit Photo's, the Heritage Elise Collection, the announcement with Centrica and then some more about the Evija's aerodynamics. It's all keeping the 'Lotus' name in the news which can help build momentum for the new car.

Hopefully, the recent activity and announcement will mean that a reveal isn't too far off 🤞

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Maybe a limited edition Exige in the beautiful, but short-lived, Martini metallic green F1 livery?

 Certainly not the new sports car before 2021.

[The Pits]

Corona virus excuse will be used to get them out of jail with Geely who would be giving them some serious hairdryer treatment. The numbers must look apocalyptic. It’s very unlikely that they have sold many Evijas to date, lovely as it is. But delays and inactivity were well underway long before the virus showed up.

Anyone who buys a Lotus must be an optimist almost by definition! I still hope for the best and always will but Lotus racing and road cars have been a lifelong passion of mine. I happen to believe that Lotus are capable of making better drivers cars than Porsche and Ferrari. That actually comes from first hand experience. I bought into the hype around Ferrari briefly and traded a Lotus Carlton for an F355. It remains the biggest disappointment of my automotive life. I sold it and bought an Esprit V8 GT and back to back comparison was overwhelmingly in favour of the Esprit in every regard, measurable and unmeasurable - apart from the posing in London/wealth statement angle perhaps. The Esprit wasn't as well finished in some areas but it was half the price of a new F355 at the time, on another level dynamically and so much faster in a straight line it wasn't even funny. So that was all the convincing I needed that Lotus have gifted engineers who really know what they're doing. I have never looked back since and have remained wary of motoring press/internet hype around certain cars and brands. For me, the rest promised so much while Lotus quietly delivered.

I only want the very best for Lotus but have yet to be convinced that it's what they're getting. This really is the last chance to transform the company into a major player and it won't happen without an inspired vision, massive investment and endless reserves of passion for Lotus - past, present and future.

[au-yt]

Lotus working on vehicle-to-grid technology... 
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