General Election - 8 June 2017

[oilmagnet477]

My Wife ALWAYS maintains Private health care is good for the basics and mechanical stuff but if you are seriously ill, then the NHS is second to none.

From what I've witnessed, I haven't yet found her to be wrong.

[C8RKH]

I agree. When the shit hits the fan, medically speaking, the NHS works wonders.

I do wish it was more efficient though. I do wish it every success. I do with the Politicians would stop pissing about with it and using it as a willy waving symbol!  The NHS should transcend party politics and needs a stable, long term, hand at the tiller to drive through efficiency whilst ensuring the staff work in good conditions and patients are treated as well as they can be. The current approach is sadly killing off the NHS - whether it be from the Conservatories or Labour in England, Labour in Wales, or the SNP in Scotland. They are right royally fluking up the NHS and it seems to be a race to the bottom to see who can fluk it the most the quickest. It's a damn crying shame and all the politicians should hold their heads in shame, as should the BMA and other trade unions who are not above putting politics first either in my very humble view.

[oilmagnet477]

Slim - I echo your every wish.

If the political classes would wake up and realise that the NHS, Education and policing are not political footballs, we might get somewhere.

However, until there is a grown up debate about what we can afford, and then what the General Public should expect from these services within that pot of available resource, things will not change.

At the moment, certain people expect the State to provide everything and want someone else to pay for it.

That will never be acceptable but there must be a balance somewhere that shouldn't be rocket science to determine...

I purposefully left Welfare of the list as I believe many in this country have become fixated on it being a human right.

As far as I'm concerned, I am more than happy to pay to make sure everyone who genuinely needs support is adequately supported - however there are huge issues around this. Seek a definition of  'adequate' and you will get multiple and conflicting answers.

I choose to wait to have kids until I was 35 - partly because I hadn't met my wife (quite an important factor in the decision making process ) but also (having had earlier opportunities) took the decision that I couldn't afford to have them.

Education plays a massive part here and I truly believe that the current state system is a race to the bottom, simply because it is starved of cash. So many of our services need long term, sustainable investment.

I actually think that bringing the significant % of voters back into the frame for spending restraint makes absolute sense. People keep saying that the Tories have abandoned the pensions triple lock as if it is a bad thing - it was introduced to give pensions an uplift, which it has largely achieved. By maintaining pensions at index levels rather than an arbitrary 2.5%, when a large proportion of people of working age have seen wage rises limited to less than 1%, is a fair adjustment (however unpopular it may be seen by those in receipt of the state pension).

Ring fencing a large % of spend means that any cuts are particularly harsh when focussed on what is left.

Until any Government faces up to ensuring that we spend less than we receive in Taxes, we are screwed. I'm not against tax increases per se but anything that is introduced has to be fair. The first thing I would do is to ensure that it is impossible (or as near as damn it) to avoid paying the tax you are due to pay.

[C8RKH]

Agree with a lot of what you say @oilmagnet477 . I think it is not just about tax.  I'm an employee so everything I earn is taxed and HMRC take it. I'd like to be confident that everyone was paying their way. I'm not though. So, I think the answer is that we stop pedalling the story that everything on the NHS should be free for everyone.  For instance, many of us could pay for some NHS services - be it prescriptions, GP visits, etc.  This "affordable" contribution would go some way to helping and as a bi-product it would give us the facilities to avoid people coming here for treatment for free as the ability to pay would be a part of the system ( I know this is but a small problem but a problem never the less that needs to be addressed ). So, if you are a high rate tax payer (an indicator of ability to pay as good as any) then you should pay for these things.  It would be fairer than just ever taxing higher earners more, and more, and more.

I think the Conservatives have been very brave re the "winter fuel" allowance. Why should pensioners who are very well off, get it. It should be focused on ensuring that those who need it get it, get it, and they get it promptly etc.

We need to think differently and reset expectations etc. In doing so we need to engage with the population better to explain the need for change and we need a long term plan.  The relentless throwing of money at stuff in a blunt attempt to fix it must cease. That is not a sustainable strategy.  We need to stop obsessing about how much money we put in, whether it is health, education, or police etc., but rather we need to focus on the outcomes that are achieved and how they are delivered.

[oilmagnet477]

We are at significant risk of agreeing with each other lol!

Another factor for me is food within the NHS - why shouldn't people pay for it - even if it were a set figure for every day spent in a hospital?

We don't feed people at home, other than provide the available benefits so why when we go to hospital do we get fed for free - they are not hotels after all.

I'm not talking huge amounts either but does any one (however poor) spend less than £3-5 a day of food?

Imagine how much money that would yield - directly to the health service.

[oilmagnet477]

Part of the problem is the class/social/political strata issue that still perpetuates in this country.

"I can't vote for that idea, even if it is good, because it is from the other side and I'll never vote for them"

Since the collapse of the Lib Dems and the removal of the need for UKIP, we have returned to a 2 party system. I suppose the positive from that is that there is a clear difference now between them. Problem is, I don't think either side have got it right, just that 1 is less wrong than the other.

Bit like choosing a car on the basis of not which is best but which is least shit.

[Chillidoggy]

Winter fuel allowance, I agree should be means tested, and go to those who need it.

 What about the free bus passes, though? I'd be quite happy to hand mine back when I get one, as the last time I got on a bus it was full of skanky Thanet chavs, smelly old people, cranks and foreigners. Dreadful experience, I'll never be able to hold my head up in Waitrose again.

[oilmagnet477]

We have a sign at the end of our road telling people that it is no longer a bus stop (I kid you not!).

There would be no point of a free bus pass in our area - there are so few to catch.

I can see that for some it provides a vital link and so should be maintained, but again on a needs basis.

[C8RKH]

Again, free bus pass should be means tested.  There are plenty of pensioners who have one and could afford to pay - future pensioners will need one as there will be frig all in the pot for them as all the final salary schemes (apart from Public Sector) will have gone.

The bus is a lifeline for many pensioners and often their only way to get around as they can't drive with many long term health conditions.  Again, "free stuff" needs to be reviewed.

The other thing we should do is to force all institutions that have a car park (restaurants, pubs, shops, factories, whatever) to enforce the no parking in disabled spaces rules. I don't need these spaces but it infuriates me when I see people miss-use them (usually women with young kids who would be the first to shout and scream if you take up a "parenting" space at Tesco's or wherever. There should be a standing £150 immediately payable fine for anyone who abuses these spots.

[Dan E]

The winter fuel allowance is a complete joke. I had this chat with my Mother the other day and she agrees and has absolutely no need for it. Elton John gets it last time I looked he was definitely comfortable 

 

[pete]

Yes my winter fuel allowance goes straight on the fire ?

[Barrykearley]

Pah old folks- scrap the cold winter payments and let's have a harsh winter. Should free up some desperately needed housing stock

Oh and here's a thought...

[Steve V8]

While we're on the subject, bloody motability cars, what the f**k is that all about, giving disabled and old people a new car every two years, surely they should be on the bus with the skanks and chavs. Firstly, I am aware that a proportion of the cost is subsidised, it would be interesting to know how much of a burden the taxpayer picks up. Not only that I suspect 50% of the people in A&E are either the motability drivers themselves or the victims they have mutilated with their Hyundi's and Kia's.

[Barrykearley]

Higher rate DLA and they get a nice free car. Tax, insurance all maintenance - just add fuel.

its lazy fat spongers who are on the con. Time and time and time again I see it........

once in a blue moon I see someone whom should have one of these cars - and they deserve it.

[C8RKH]

16 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

once in a blue moon I see someone whom should have one of these cars - and they deserve it - but they can never get one because of the lazy fat spongers on the con.

FTFY

[Barrykearley]

you @C8RKH makes me laugh -but you ain't going to leftie heaven 

[C8RKH]

Oh I am @Barrykearley. I'll be crashing through their gate's in a mother ..........er B52 stacked with more MOAB's than America has MickeyD's and I'm gonna have some fun...  But then again I might just stay cozy in righty hell with a bag of marshmallows and a poker.

[Chillidoggy]

Marshmallows and a poker? Must be what passes for entertainment on long, dark nights north of the border.

[basalte]

Hi its me again, the lefty Lotus fan .

(Let me rephrase that...more left-wing than the very right wing posters on here who are arguably told by the newspapers that their opinions are merely "moderate" or "centrist"). 

I know your arguments pretty well-the main one being horror and ridicule expressed at the "Magic Money Tree" possessed by anyone to the left of Ebenezer Scrooge who wants to spend money on the well-being and security of the British people . 

"Everyone wants free stuff and we can`t pay for it" is the mantra.  

(Of course you may remember that  there was a magic money tree of 500 billion plus to bail out the bankers / bombing Iraq and Libya and Syria-but leaving that aside.....)

There are various posts dealing with the concept of borrowing. Yes there will be borrowing. In the same way that any business borrows to invest to grow that business. 

THE COSTS PROPOSED BY LABOUR : 

Scrap tuition fees. Reinstate grants : £11.2 billion

Schools :                £6.3 bn

Childcare               £6.3 bn

NHS/Free hospital parking £5 bn

Scrapping public sector pay restraint  £4 bn     (the ultra-rich just increased their private capital by 14 % last year to £658 billion -perhaps look at that figure in that context!)

Reversing benefit cuts £4 bn

Free further education : £2.3 bn

Social care extra funding £ 8.2 bn

TOTAL : 48.6 BILLION

HOW TO PAY FOR IT :

Raising Corp tax to 26 %        (some of you with long memories will remember that it was 30% then 28% under that well-known Socialist Maggie Thatcher )

Raised Income tax on all salaries over £80,000 (oh the poor oppressed will have to pay an extra £400 year according to the BBC)

Tax on fat cat bonuses  £1.3 bn   (wonder what will happen to Mr. Cruz of British/Spanish Airways now the IT "outage" (hmmmmmmm) has hit the fan.....must be another thread in that, surely ?)

Tax on offshore property £1.6 bn

Anti tax avoidance measures £6.5 bn

Tax on financial transactions: £5.6 bn

Corporate  tax loophole closing :  £3.8 bn

Inheritance tax adjustment : £ 3.7 bn

VAT on private school fees £1.6 bn

Other savings : 2.6 bn

TOTAL : 52.5 BILLION (with a 3.9 billion reduction margin) 

Now I would be a fool to expect you to take those figures on trust and I am aware of IFS criticism

(although much seems to be based on a frankly cynical view that  the target taxpayers will dodge their patriotic duty to help their country`s balance of payments )

But-and it is a BIG but. So big that its not an elephant in the room, its a bloody MAMMOTH 

Where are the COMPARATOR Tory figures ?

Its THEIR election-they didn`t have to call it ! They were the ones who should be ready (alright I know in reality it was just Theresa`s and Lynton`s wacky idea that caught her ministers on the hop...)  

Where are the Tory figures ? They are so keen to rubbish Diane Abbott ( who BTW was calling for finance for  more police officers) but where are THEIR own figures ?

A third time. Where are the Tory figures ?  Where are those Strong and Stable figures that so many of you will love to cheer to the echo ?     

 

   

 

 

    

[pete]

Don't know the Tory figures personally but am at a loss to understand how one party is certain it needs more cuts and the other party says it can spend more. Why did it go so wrong last time Labour was in power. Personal tax was over 30% when I started and now is around 20% so surely everyone should pay more to get more.Just taking one of your above figures if 3million people are earning over 80thousand and pay the 400 that only comes to 1.2 billion not very much in the whole scheme of things. Would love Corbyn to be right but past form doesn't give me much confidence

[franjipane]

I think austerity has failed us miserably and was obviously a bunch of measures to help the Tory party's rich mates pay less tax/get more rich, we were perfectly able to pay for things like tuition fees and the NHS before austerity.  I would love to see some figures from the Tories on how they plan to spend our money over the next few years, but if they can't even be bothered to do the maths i don't see why they should be trusted.  Talking of trust, the Tories seem to be changing their minds about policies constantly now.  

Both parties are a bit vague on taxes with some figures that are tough to compare, the Conservatives more so.  The biggest issue i have with the current Tory manifesto is they have promised to cut corporation tax from %19 to %17, which means we will be far, far lower than most of our friends around the world.  Labour wants corp tax at 26% the same as Canada, just below Germany and far below USA at 40%.  So it's not even a crazy amount, it's still on the low end of the scale.  Labour wants to cut tax for small business, which should help get more people working, happy days.

Basically i think the Tories are happy to continue letting public services, pensions, police, fire, support for small business etc slide while protecting the top 5% richest people from paying globally normal taxes.

I'm not a fan of Corbyn, but i'm much, much less of a fan of May and her party.

Just to add, in an economy that works wages should increase (while i wasn't a fan of Blair/Brown) wages actually increased between 2003 and 2009, but since the Tories have been in power they've gone down.  Add to this that government spending has been cut during this time and we were told that it was to reduce debt.  Nonsense, the ratio of national debt to GDP has gone up!

[franjipane]

On a more local note, where i live my kid's school has had massive cuts over the last few years, with more to come.  While Labour plans to reverse the cuts.

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, franjipane said:

I think austerity has failed us miserably and was obviously a bunch of measures to help the Tory party's rich mates pay less tax/get more rich, we were perfectly able to pay for things like tuition fees and the NHS before austerity.  I would love to see some figures from the Tories on how they plan to spend our money over the next few years, but if they can't even be bothered to do the maths i don't see why they should be trusted.  Talking of trust, the Tories seem to be changing their minds about policies constantly now.  

Both parties are a bit vague on taxes with some figures that are tough to compare, the Conservatives more so.  The biggest issue i have with the current Tory manifesto is they have promised to cut corporation tax from %19 to %17, which means we will be far, far lower than most of our friends around the world.  Labour wants corp tax at 26% the same as Canada, just below Germany and far below USA at 40%.  So it's not even a crazy amount, it's still on the low end of the scale.  Labour wants to cut tax for small business, which should help get more people working, happy days.

Basically i think the Tories are happy to continue letting public services, pensions, police, fire, support for small business etc slide while protecting the top 5% richest people from paying globally normal taxes.

I'm not a fan of Corbyn, but i'm much, much less of a fan of May and her party.

Just to add, in an economy that works wages should increase (while i wasn't a fan of Blair/Brown) wages actually increased between 2003 and 2009, but since the Tories have been in power they've gone down.  Add to this that government spending has been cut during this time and we were told that it was to reduce debt.  Nonsense, the ratio of national debt to GDP has gone up!

This kind of post just makes me so fed up.  How quickly it is forgotten how many of the former LABOUR cabinet where public school, rich background, hooray Henry's.  They had mates in the top jobs in the banking sector just like anyone in the Tory party. Remind me, was it not the LABOUR Government that went for soft management and legislation on the twat bankers that ended in financial meltdown!  Yeah so that's right, it's so easy to throw the trashy "the tories just help their rich mates" line.  Yeah right. Myth one dispelled there then.

Corporation tax cuts might just be what we need come Brexit to keep businesses based here. Let's get Brexit out of the way before we start to isolate the businesses. Just a thought.

Do you really want to go down the dark alley of pensions - or is it just public sector pensions you care about.  That total idiot Mr. Brown didn't seem to care a jot, not one iota, about the impact that his policies and his short sightedness and his total bollocks did to my, and several million other hard working peoples, pensions.  So yeah, right on, dream on, that ONLY the Labour party cares about pensions. Public sector pensions maybe. Myth number two busted.

So, why should wages increase every year when, for many of tose years inflation was actually negative. So, does that mean salaries should also be reduced? I mean, logic dictates, that if wages have to rise as inflation rises, then surely they go down with inflation?  Funny how it is only the public sector that thinks they are ENTITLED to an ANNUAL pay rise. Those of us in the private sector are often just happy to have a job for another year.

How quickly we forget the last act of the Labour Chancellor was to leave a note saying "good luck, the bank is empty, we've spent it all".  Great social responsibility there.

I come from a working class background. A council estate and a product of the comprehensive schooling system. No university for me, I just wanted to work and earn. Never did me any harm.

Not everyone needs to go to University. Not everyone benefits from it. Why should university be "free" for all. why not pay for tuition fees? Indeed, was it not the LABOUR government who introduced the tuition fee's?  Whoops...  So sorry, we didn't mean to do it.

The Tories are no better or no worse than anyone else. The one thing they will deliver in my humble opinion is a good Brexit deal. Or no deal, depends, on your point of view of course. I work hard for my living. After 33 years I am now earning really good money. I've been lucky, but then through hard work, a willingness to follow the work and move around, I've made sacrifices to get where I am. It really pisses me off to hear Corby and Macdonald go on about how the richest people need to pay more. How MY hard earned cash needs to be handed over and shared with others. Why? What's stopping them doing what I did? I already pay enough.  We talk about people on more than £80k being "rich". What pish!  So I'm rich am I. I'm the sole bread winner. Have been for 23 years. And yet because someone somewhere picks out a random number I am classed as rich. Not my neighbours of course. They both work. Both earn under £80k but total household income is well over £130k. But hey they're not rich. They still got their child allowance whilst mine was stopped as I, the key thing hear, I, earned too much.

Neither of the main stream parties really deserves my vote. Labour can go and throw themselves off a high mountain. The Tories off a bridge into a deep river. But no one else is even close to either of these shits. The Liberals are a joke. That Farron/Fallon bloke is just a motor mouth on steroids and in my humble opinion just talks crap.  The Greens. Haha, I'll stop laughing in a week....

Just a wee rant. Always better to get it off your chest. Bit sick of hearing how everyone wants something for nothing. Is entitled to something for nothing. And how they are just the victim and it's not fair and not their fault. You don't need to be born with a silver spoon to get on. Hard graft, a bit of luck, more hard work and who knows you make some luck....

[oilmagnet477]

Maybe, just maybe, the Tories haven't bothered costing their manifesto cos they know it's all bollocks anyway - now there's political honesty for you lol

As for Coryn's figures - well sure they add up if you assume that everything will stay the same as they based their assumptions on but, just as 1 example, their plan to add 20% on to Private School Fees (which the 'well off' pay for out of taxed income) will directly result in those kids (and quite a large %) ending up back in the state system. So the Govt has to spend more educating these kids and the private Schools suffer through less kids - ergo more Private school staff looking for jobs elsewhere........

Not saying that either side has it right or wrong but it is never as simple as it seems

[C8RKH]

Agree it is never simple. It's just that simple people think Labour = good guys and Tories  = bad guys.  Many of the people who freak and whinge about the Tories have either benefited from their policies in the past or will benefit in the future.

My parents had the chance to buy a house. It was the council house they had rented for almost 20 years. The only way they could get on the ladder.  Eventually they were able to sell it and buy a nice little cottage. That'll be my inheritance one day. Something my mother and father never thought they'd be able to do.  I don't care what anyone says, but Mrs. Thatcher. Thank you!

Many of the screaming lefties will have benefited from "right to buy". Many of them will benefit in the future through inheritance. Yet they after 30 years they still bitch and moan about the woman who helped more than anyone else, millions to own their own homes!  Yeah, totally shit, selfish, right wing bitch eh?  No. Not really!

These same screaming lefties are the ones who live in their ever increasing valuable houses. The ones who revel in the value increase, remortgage for cars, or holidays, or that little chalet in Chamonix. Whilst at the same time, whinge about how little Jonny or Isabel can not afford to get on the housing ladder.  Oh the irony in the situation. Oh how simple the problem. Just blame the Tories for everything and everything will be OK.

As I said, both sides as bad as each other. Both sides as feral as each other. Both sides as blinkered as each other. We need a new type of party. One that truly is open and listens and thinks long term. Won't happen in my life time though I don't suppose. And neither Corbyn nor May would be in it. They certainly would not be leading it. But then neither would Fallon, Sturgeon, Wood and whoever leads the greens. So irrelevant I cannot even remember their name!