Question for the brains trust

[ramjet]

Ok, It starts, but it is only running on 2 cylinders. Numbers 1 and 3. (removed plug leads and started the car) Initially I thought coil pack, but they are paired numbers 1 and 4, and 2 and 3. Removed and remade all spark plug lead connections. Back to the drawing board.

I can presume that the compression is ok as, if it were not, I highly doubt that it would run on only 2 cylinders.

All injectors are hooked up electrically. I also checked the wiring to the coil packs. All hooked up and ok, but as I said the pairs are different to what I have running.

I am also getting a noise from the front of the engine, which started a bit after the car was running. (New tensioner bearing. I had the centre shaft pressed out at an engineering firm and then pressed into the new bearing. (I wonder if that could be it? I was there when he did it and am sure that he supported the inner race.) I have checked belt tensions and everything appears ok. Timing belt tension still shows the correct frequency when plucked.

I did get some smoke from the front left hand side of the engine bay after the car had run for a bit with a smell, but nothing is touching where it shouldn’t be and no belts are showing any signs of rubbing. The smoke has not come back again, but I have not run the car for long since. I am presuming that something may have been on the exhaust which has burnt off. Considering the proximity, this could have been PAS fluid from when I removed the pump etc.

I have no water leaks or oil leaks that I can see or see any evidence of.

I have packed up for today, but depending on what time I get home from work tomorrow, I will try and change spark plugs around and see what happens.
So, is there anything else that anyone can think of that could be causing a 2 and 4 cylinder issue? Is there anything else that Is common (like the coil packs)?

signed,

Confused.

[Escape]

The injectors are also paired 1-4 and 2-3, but still worth checking.

Good luck,

Filip

[ramjet]

I had them disconnected when I took the injectors out. When I put them all back, I put the injectors in the position they came out of. The way the wiring is taped up, I couldn't confuse the wiring when I put them back.

Can you suggest what I should be looking for?

Another thing. I am not getting a CEL when the engine is running on just two cylinders?

[Vulcan Grey]

I've had 2 injectors fail at once (clogged), mine just happened to be on 2&3. So if I moved them to the other positions, the problem followed the injector. Try that.

[s4simon]

Sorry Michael, your problems are far beyond my brain capacity.  If you do nee any photos of the stock setup (leads and stuff) just ask and I'll click away with the instamatic.

From memory I think you have all the manuals, so can't help any further there either, so this pic is of no use to you then.

 

 

[Chillidoggy]

Start from first principles: Take the ignition leads off and make sure they're connected to the right post and corresponding plug. If it makes things easier to see, take the leads out from behind the heatshield and connect them up over the top of the engine for test purposes.

[ramjet]

Have now triple checked the leads and they are all correct.

I am working today a bit over an hour and a half from home, so my intent is to start the car when I get home and then pull the plugs from the offending cylinders and see what that might tell me.

[Escape]

I'm not suggesting it is the injectors, because there is nothing common to cilinders 2&3. But as said, simultaneous problems can occur. So if the ignition checks out (did you check for sparks with plugs out?), fueling would be the next step.

[ramjet]

I have not been able to get near the car again so I have not been able to check anything.  

[Vulcan Grey]

Generally an electrical fault will take out the pair.  An electrical problem on the injector will also cause the pair to fail.  A fault with a coil will also take out the pair.  

It is possible to have 2 bad (plugged) injectors that will not effect the pair, and will not set a check engine code.

Or you could have a broken or other heat damaged (internally) spark plug wire.

I usually say to try things in this order, some of which you have done already

1) check spark on each cylinder by idling the engine and the disconnecting the IAC connector. 

• pull each plug lead, one at a time, and verify that they all drop the RPM's the same amount.
• if one or more cylinders did not cause the rpm's to drop, then that is a non-firing cylinder

2) Disable fuel pump (inertia switch or pull fuse)

• Pull out each plug one at a time (connect plug lead) and hold spark plug near engine to observe spark while engine cranked.
• If any spark is weaker, look into why. Ohm out leads etc..

3) Install fuel pump fuse and or re-enable inertia switch)

• Pull out fuel rail complete with all injectors firmly clipped in.  Place paper towels under injectors and crank engine.
• Verify each injector has approx the same size wet spot in the paper towel, if any are not wet, write down location and whether pair is same.
• move fuel injectors to different cylinder and see if problem follows. Move at least 2 moves to the different pair combos.

4) check resistance of each injector when warm with Ohm meter

• Primaries should be 2.0 +/- .1 Ohm
• Secondaries should be ~14 Ohm.

5) check fuel pressure

• should be ~43 psi at idle

6) verify injector signal with noid light.

7) get fuel injectors cleaned and or flow tested, and or replaced.

 

There are some more detailed instructions in the EMH manual.

 

[ramjet]

Well it is chucking it down with rain where I was going to work today on some balconies, so I will be into the car. Will let you know what I find. I haven't had a day off since I first posted this issue.

[ramjet]

So I have four good sparks. I had two quite sooty spark plugs when I pulled them all. The ones that were running were the sooty ones obviously. The other two were clean as. So now I will pull the injector rail and check whether they are working. I expect two of them have quit. What I don't know is how to check the secondary injectors for flow?

I can only think that it would be best to take the whole lot to an injector mob and get them cleaned etc. Don't know why they would have quit when they were all working when I took the car off the road 15 months ago? Would fuel going off in them block them up?

I would also add that checking the resistance in each of the leads showed 2,3,4 to be about 9,000 ohms and 1 to be about 11,000 ohms.

[Escape]

Your findings pulling the plugs certainly points towards injection. I would concentrate on the primary injectors first. The secondaries, being in the plenum, are unlikely to affect 2 out of 4 cylinders. You could always swap injectors on the rail, to see if the problem moves with them to be sure, before taking them to a cleaner. Could still be an easy-to-fix electrical issue.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Filip

[ramjet]

Ok. It is probably because it has sat so long and I have changed the fuel filter etc so who knows what may have entered the system. All injector leads say they are ok. Putting paper under each one showed 1 and 3 to be spraying fuel. Nothing from 2 and 4.

The paper showed small black bits in the fuel from both 1 and 3, so I am presuming that has clogged 2 and 4. The chance it has got through to the secondaries is likely as well.

So my question now is do I bother getting all the injectors, both primary and secondary, cleaned or do I just go and buy new ones? About $35 each to get them cleaned and flow tested.

[andydclements]

An injector that's been cleaned, tested and set correctly will probably be as good as when it left the factory, so if you were looking at buying like for like, then I'd say go the cleaning route.If you were going to use that as an excuse to upgrade then it's a different matter.

[ramjet]

As I looking to sell the car, I will be making some calls for cleaning prices with a couple of shops.

Buying new is $ prohibitive.

[DanR]

Swap the injectors with the working ones to confirm it's them. Do you have access to a noid test kit. Maybe those injectors aren't getting a signal.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/like/301555397772?chn=ps&dispItem=1 

(Many years ago I had a similar problem with one cylinder on my motorbike (suzi RF900). Everything checked out, lead resistance, swapping plugs etc etc. Eventually found the problem to simply be a loose piece where the h/t lead fitted into the coil.

I doubt you'd have a problem with the secondary injectors. They only work under high boost conditions.

[Vulcan Grey]

clean all 4.  They do get gummed up with varnish from the fuel, if they sit a long time.

 

Be careful!  Make sure to depressurize the fuel system AND remove the fuel filler caps before removing any part of the fuel system!

[ramjet]

8 hours ago, DanR said:

Swap the injectors with the working ones to confirm it's them. Do you have access to a noid test kit. Maybe those injectors aren't getting a signal.

I doubt you'd have a problem with the secondary injectors. They only work under high boost conditions.

The ECU tests each injector at startup by sending a pulse when the key is turned on. All injector leads show 12V momentarily when the key is turned on.

5 hours ago, Vulcan Grey said:

clean all 4.  They do get gummed up with varnish from the fuel, if they sit a long time.

Be careful!  Make sure to depressurize the fuel system AND remove the fuel filler caps before removing any part of the fuel system!

Have already been caught out by the fuel rail once Travis. Put a fan on the car to dry everything up before turning the key on or doing anything around the engine. Numpty.

[ramjet]

I'm throwing around the idea of trying to get the injectors going myself as the principle is quite simple. Push a cleaner through them while cycling the solenoid. What I am not sure of is if I can damage any internals or the filter basket by doing so?

Does anyone know if getting the filter baskets out is difficult?

[ramjet]

So sent the injectors to a shop down here and they are all done and back in.

IT RUNS!!!!!!!!!! And on all four.

I have something that I am going to try when I next get a chance to work on the car which will probably be after our tiling job in Lorne is finished, which could be another 5 days yet, and if it works, I will post my results up in here.