Evora GT430

[The Pits]

That’s absolutely where the 430 engine delivers gains.

So now we have horsepower denial to join the weight loss denial! The Ferrari 355 has 30lbs/ft and 75bhp more than the 348 but weighs nearly 100kg more so torque to weight was actually lower. Yet there’s a considerable difference in performance and it’s all horsepower. Same applies to the Honda S2000. A supercharged car has to be revved like an NA to make the power so it’s not going to feel as impressive as an equivalent turbo car in the mid-range. Meaning it won’t suit some driving styles as well. Floor a Sport 410 at 4000-5000rpm and you might well conclude it’s ‘not all that’. Hang on to 7,000rpm when many turbos are running out of puff and it’s a different story.

But of course I’m making the whole thing up because fanboi.

“Once typical options are added back to the GT430 (+50 KG?) torque : weight ratio has increased by 11% ( @ 1k higher up the rev range) compared to the Evora 400.”

Pretty epic fudge there adding options to get the torque:weight down. Aside from that, an 11% increase of a large number is a good increase in car terms. 44 more bhp over an Evora 400? I’ll take that even if peak torque is unchanged. So too, I’d wager, would JayEmm!

Either none of the cars are noticeably faster than the Evora S or they all are. If the Evora 400 is believed to be faster than the Evora S with only 6 lbs/ft more peak torque then the GT430 must be noticeably faster with 23lbs/ft more than a 400. It’s wildly inconsistent to consider the Evora 400 a big step over the S but to deny the GT430.

 

 

 

[andyj007]

i love all this extra that 5% here, bit of weight there.. manual this auto that.  torqe this bhp that..

gt430 looks fast, very fast infact..

therefore its at least fast enough to be faster than everything else....  and is so  by some margin..

very sadly its also out of my financial reach,   so that makes it even faster.. 

my world is so simple 😂

in all honestly im a geek, i love all this weight / hp / torque stuff.

to me power / weight is everything. torque just makes something feel quick.

just look to a diesel engine for that..   i often  look through my Lotus marque book, just in awe at some of the power to weight and performance those 1960 cars..

essential 450-500kg with huge bhp, 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cain-it]

1 hour ago, The Pits said:

“Once typical options are added back to the GT430 (+50 KG?) torque : weight ratio has increased by 11% ( @ 1k higher up the rev range) compared to the Evora 400.”

Pretty epic fudge there adding options to get the torque:weight down.

LOL

Unfortunately Lotus has latched-on to the Ferrari / Porsche trend of quoting dry weights, or deleting standard equipment from base models, so their higher-end models look lighter than they really are. To get the Ferrari quoted weight, you'd have to add all the weight saving options over the standard spec too. This is marketeering, not engineering - great for the pub & 15 yr olds reading car mags. 

You can't drive a dry car.

How many people buy a £50+k road car without  AC fitted, or NVH insulation or some level of ICE ?

Thank goodness DAB ariels are light 😉

 

Edited May 12, 2018 by Cain-it

[The Pits]

Wasn't quoting dry weights as I also think they're nonsense.

I always use the wet kerbweight for working out power:weight. Even that is a bit daft as it doesn't include a driver but there can easily be a 50kg difference between two drivers. The GT430 is quoted at 1299kg wet, that's the figure I always use. Literally don't care what it, or any other car, weighs dry.

My own car has air con and sound deadening but nothing else to add over that. Total is 20kg on top at the most. Sound deadening basically amounts to some cotton wool, factory say 5kg, I doubt it's that much. I still haven't put the car on a weigh bridge but will do and will be happy to share what the real world figure is. Stereo is worth somewhere between 10-15kg depending on speakers, sub woofers and the like. I don't believe there's a figure for what the carbon Sparcos weigh but the Lotus race seats save 18kg over the regular Sparcos so your +50kg estimate is comparing the heaviest possible GT430 with the lightest possible Evora 400. Looks to me like massaging of the numbers in order to support this: "I'm not surprised JayEmm couldn't feel a step change, there isn't one."

My Exige V6 also had aircon and weighed 1135kg with fuel on board. The factory claim was 1110kg without aircon, aircon is thought to be worth about 15kg so the factory weight claim was pretty accurate on that car. Maybe the factory have started lying about weights now, maybe not, I'll find out soon but will wait for hard facts before making sweeping claims one way or the other.

[The Pits]

I read all the cynicism too and it's easy for it to worm its way into your brain. All it takes is a seed of doubt and the internet is full of them along with the perfect conditions for them to flourish. Every duff move by Lotus every is used as proof to confirm a suspicion. I read all the rumours and can't help but fear things have gotten worse. What if it is all window dressing, nothing of substance, all marketing no engineering? What if they are lying about horsepower and weight and everything? What if an Evora S really is as near as makes no difference as fast as a GT430? What if a Cayman S really was better than all of them? How can a Golf GTi be faster around the Nurburgring than an Exige 380?

So I take my car to Castle Combe where I have some reference to other cars I've driven there and it silences all the doubt. That's why I'm now in the mood to counter some of the cynicism, I have some real world experience to back up the claims. Before it was just what I hoped about the car. Now it's what I know. I'd love to do so much more. If anyone has a Komotec uprated Evora 400 let's get them together for a zero BS assessment with real numbers. If the power:weight is correct then a GT430 should be able to match a KT460 in a straight line and, I believe, beat it around corners and over a lap. Wouldn't it be interesting to really find out? If the KT460 wins, it wins.

I do know this. In my first session on track in a 350bhp Caterham CSR, on slicks, weighing under 550kg, close to 700bhp per ton, I only managed to go a second quicker than my best time in the GT430. I'd only been in the GT430 for the morning. I went much quicker in the CSR in my second session with some more heat in the tyres but I got out of the fastest Caterham I'd ever driven more impressed by the GT430! It's not the new messiah, there are a number of things I think they could and should have done better. Even more power (and torque!), harnesses, adjustable seat mounts and more instruments would have been very welcome at the price. It can still understeer if you get on the throttle too early in some corners but it can also display utterly exquisite balance in others. The steering comes alive with more load through the tyres too. The Sport 410 is more communicative at legal road speeds. Lotus are also to blame launching too many cars too rapidly which has severely dented buyer confidence and completely stolen the thunder from all future launches for some time to come. The car itself deserved much better. People should be looking at it like a modern day Esprit Sport 300 but far too many are dismissing it as an Evora 400 with a few whistles and bells attached. Castle Combe put me right on that, much to my relief, so I wanted to share some real-world experience about the car.

Drove home on track damper settings too. It takes no prisoners like that but it's not undriveable. Much nicer on road settings but you need to take the rear wheels off to adjust the dampers, would have been much easier with remote oil reservoirs. There's me being all negative again! 

[Bruss]

No one is doubting your enthusiasm, enjoy it. 

[Michadams]

On 04/05/2018 at 14:42, Hakim0v said:

Guys, 

i just received my auto GT430, one important question:

No TC buttons in all auto 430?!

cuz they did not mention that

You get a TC "button", when Race Mode is activated like the previous Evora TC system.

Sport Mode : TC activated +/- 50%

Race Mode : TC Off
 

[JayEmm]

Question for you @The Pits, something which always bothered me in my 400 but haven't had the seat time in a 430 to assess long enough - my 400 feels like it pulls just as strong, if not stronger, in 3rd than it does in 2nd.

This was always something that bugged me. In 2nd gear my E46 M3 delivered way more subjective "punch", from a heavier car with less power and torque. But in 3rd the story is reversed.

It always bugged me as I recalled the old esprit V8 being pinned back in the first two gears too.

How does yours feel?

[mik]

3 hours ago, JayEmm said:

Question for you @The Pits, something which always bothered me in my 400 but haven't had the seat time in a 430 to assess long enough - my 400 feels like it pulls just as strong, if not stronger, in 3rd than it does in 2nd.

This was always something that bugged me. In 2nd gear my E46 M3 delivered way more subjective "punch", from a heavier car with less power and torque. But in 3rd the story is reversed.

I have felt this sensation before in my S, but I think it's just your brain deceiving you, as you are starting to pile on some serious speed by the time you are fully extending 3rd gear. It is definitely my "favourite gear"....

Relatively easy enough to check though - 2nd gear is 1.913:1 vs 3rd which is 1.407:1. Everything else is the same (final drive etc), so in theory 2nd should provide 1.36x the torque to the drivewheels when compared to 3rd.

Pick an increment - 3000rpm through to 6000rpm for example - and time it in 2nd, then 3rd. If we pretend aerodynamics don't exist, then the car should be approx 36% quicker over the same increment in 2nd than it is in 3rd. Aerodynamic drag should of course widen that gap. If it is not at least 36% faster in 2nd then you might be right about the torque being restricted.

[Solstice]

On 11/05/2018 at 18:11, The Pits said:

Yet everyone thinks the 20bhp more, 10kg less 991 GT3RS is a big step over the GT3.

McLaren 650S - 675LT, 25bhp more.

Ferrari 458 - Speciale, 35 bhp more.

In percentage terms the Evora GT430 is offering larger gains than any of the above.

In power to weight terms, which continues to be ignored even here and continuously on your videos, the GT430 is 330bhp per ton versus the Evora 400's 286bhp per ton (based on Lotus' wet weight figures). I would expect that to be in the region of a noticeable difference. An Evora 400 would need over 460bhp to match that power:weight.

Lotus haven't helped themselves of course by annoying everyone with their speed of new model launches. When they go and release two models that really do move the game on, the reaction is muted and cynical. We're already looking past these 430 cars for the assumed 450. James has the only videos on YouTube about these cars and he's underwhelmed by both. My experience based on yesterday, was that the combination of uprated brakes, aero, dampers, tyres, weight reduction and the power increase really does add up.

You should probably add an 80kg driver to the weight of each car, which would further widen the power to weight differential, although in fairness during my rather short test drive of a 430 on the road (with a driver and passenger) it was the suspension which was the most obvious improvement over the 400.

[Bruss]

Eu standard for curb, lol kerb, weight includes operating fluids plus 75 kg. (for driver)

Edited May 13, 2018 by Bruss

[The Pits]

To answer @JayEmm I’ll double check next time I take the car out but from memory it’s pulls very in 2nd with no noticeable increase in intensity in 3rd.

The Esprit V8 was indeed torque limited in 1st and 2nd but the Esprit Sport 350 ecu gave the missing torques back and the difference was obvious. Certainly nothing like that with the GT430.

I wonder if the E46 M3 would feel as fast as you remember? A straight line performance difference is often more noticeable when you get back in the slower car. Jumping between the Exige V6 and Evora Sport 410 was interesting. While torque still felt strong in the Exige the 410’s top end rush was notable by its absence.

[JayEmm]

I had my M3 at the same time I had my 400, I have driven one since. As mentioned it is the savage 1st/2nd acceleration I notice - from third on no contest. The E46 is definitely a little shorter geared, but it was always something that bugged me.

It could just be the fact the Evora puts the power down in a much less fussy way.

[Simon Bateman]

On 13/05/2018 at 08:17, jonnyboy said:

The 570S is a great car and the 430 is nipping at its heels price wise.

130 for the 430 another 20k gets a lot more power and a leap frog up a couple of rungs on the supercar ladder with the 570. No doubt that both of these make the 410 look like a bargain at 50 large for a spoiler and a set of aftermarket dampers on the 430.  This was one of the factors that pushed me towards the 410.

Do you really need to spend another 18k on extras to make the 430 usable?

I appreciate that there are some essentials tucked away on the options list and personally I think all cars should have a basic head unit and aircon, but if that's the case then it takes the 430 firmly into McLaren 540 territory.

I'd imagine the running costs of the McLaren would easily exceed the Lotus, but that's a brave choice to choose the 430 over the 540. 

 

[Trevsked]

I did exactly that for the driving experience you get with the 430.

 

Trevor.

[The Pits]

No-one's paid £130k for a GT430. Every time a 410 owner mentions the price is goes up £10k!

You can pay £25k just for paint with McLaren if you want to. I asked for a £5k paint job from Lotus and they flat refused!

[Bruss]

127,370 pounds is close enough. It is apparently 410 bhp and hasn't been snapped up yet.

 

 

 

 

[The Pits]

Where is this car? Most I’ve seen is a sticker price of £124k and that had everything. With air con sound deadening you could be on the road in a brand new Ardent Red one (which happens to be one of the best colours) for less than £115k.

Ok just seen it. That's Liquid Yellow so paint has taken it to that. A 570S can be specced to £200k if we want to look at how far a car can be optioned up. Don't bother posting a link we don't want to divert this thread with GT430 price discussion anyway.

[Bruss]

Quite right, the 430 is a lovely car but you can't make a statement about it not being a 130K car when it clearly can be.

 

 

[Simon Bateman]

I agree that a 540 or 570 could easily be specified to huge sums beyond the list price, but if you are talking about the essentials like Nav. A/C, music, then I assume they all come as standard with the Macca.

I haven't seen the price list, but by choosing standard paint for both cars and adding in the above to a 430, plus some sound deadening, then I suspect there is still 15k daylight between the cars.

I continue to read that the Evora 400 is 911 money and so recently during a quite spell, I configured a base car like for like at near 85k and and Carrera S at near 95k.

 

[The Pits]

 

35 minutes ago, Bruss said:

Quite right, the 430 is a lovely car but you can't make a statement about it not being a 130K car when it clearly can be.

 

 

I can when it's still not actually £130k, even when fully loaded with the most expensive paint option.

I'm not the one exaggerating the numbers here, as everyone can see. 

You can easily spec a Boxster over £90k. Would be a bit tiresome if I constantly referred to a 718 Boxster as a £90k car.

£127k for a GT430 is too much for me also but £114500 for a lighter (and for me, preferable) spec is nowhere near a '£130k car'.

I'm done with this now, I hope you are too.

 

 

 

 

[CocoPops]

What a rude response. If Paul wants to query £130k car. Why shouldn’t he? It’s not for you to decide.

if you don’t want to discuss it, don’t, but don’t try to override him.

[The Pits]

I think it's best to stick to the facts don't you?

Nothing rude about that whatsoever.

Are you really in favour of exaggeration over the correct numbers?

If so, may I politely request that you continue this discussion about via private mail?

Threads get very boring very quickly for everyone else otherwise.

Thanks.

 

 

 

[Simon Bateman]

2 hours ago, The Pits said:

You can easily spec a Boxster over £90k. Would be a bit tiresome if I constantly referred to a 718 Boxster as a £90k car.

£127k for a GT430 is too much for me also but £114500 for a lighter (and for me, preferable) spec is nowhere near a '£130k car'.

I think that's a fair comment.  Clearly there are enough extras to get the car up to or near to 130k, but I suspect this is not truly representative of where the car needs to be or where it would be found too often.

Also I'm not sure if it does Lotus any favours at that price point.  The 430 came a close second to a 911 GT3 in EVO a few months back at a comparable price of 112k and at the time I felt it was unfair on the Lotus because in reality you are not going to find a GT3 at that price, even if you are on the Christmas card list of the dealer principle of an OPC.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

FWIW Pistonheads lists the following GT430 sticker prices:

GBP 127,370. Bell & Colvill new Liquid yellow

GBP 125,845. Howards new Empire Green

GBP 121,325. Leven new Burnt Orange

GBP 118,500. Central Lotus 550 miles Signature Silver

GBP 117,950. Oakmere 1000 miles Ardent Red

 

 

Edited May 14, 2018 by LotusLeftLotusRight