engine just stopped

[Grahaml]

I'm sure this will be a simple fix (once I know what the issue is)- I hope!

Driving the other day - just taking it easy - got about 10 miles and the engine just died on me and wouldn't restart.  The engine turned over fine but woldn't fire. 

After about 5 - 10 minutes I managed to get it to start again but only got another half a mile or so before it died again.  This time the engine check light came on.

Breakdown guys came - while I was waiting I got it to start again - then it died again after a few minutes, this happened a few times while I was waiting.  He didn't see any obvious fault and his diagnostics read the codes - I didn't see exctly what they were but I read them later at home (see below).  He cleared the fault codes and suggested that I drive for a bit and he would follow - if it died again I would need to get recovered.  We drove a mile maybe and it seemed fine so we agreed I would drive home.  I got about a quarter of a mile before it died again so this time got recovered home.

I read  the codes at home P0201 through to P0108 - Injector circuit malfunction.  There were no engine check lights showing though.  I could run the engine as before seemed fine - once or twice it actually ran long enough to go through the heat, fan cycle but sometimes cut out after 5 minutes or so.  I went over the connections I could see around the top of the engine - I think powering the injectors - cleaned them and reconnected although none of them looked at  all bad and then cleared the codes myself.

No real difference.

I replaced the coils and HT leads earlier this year, new plugs, full service - all oils and fluids.

I'm thinking maybe remove the plenum next to check any connections under there?

Any ideas?

I'm trawling through the manuals and forums.

Any ideas that will help me guys?

Thanks in advance,  Graham

[Vulcan Grey]

P0108 is the MAP sensor circuit high (meaning a short to voltage?).

Quote

Symptoms of a P0108 DTC code may include:

MIL (Malfunction Indicator Lamp) will likely be on

Engine may run poorly

Engine may not run at all

Fuel mileage may decrease

Presence of black smoke at exhaust

Read more at: https://www.obd-codes.com/p0108
Copyright OBD-Codes.com

Quote

Potential causes of a P0108 code:

Bad MAP sensor Leak in vacuum supply line to MAP sensor

Engine vacuum leak

Short on signal wire to PCM

Short on reference voltage wire from PCM

Open in ground circuit to MAP

Worn engine causing low vacuum

Read more at: https://www.obd-codes.com/p0108
Copyright OBD-Codes.com

 

[Vulcan Grey]

P0201 is similar (probably being a short in the wiring...  If not a bad ECM (hope that it isn't)

https://www.obd-codes.com/p0201

Quote

The causes could be any of the following:

Bad injector. This is usually the cause of this code but doesn't rule out the possibility of one of the other causes

Open in the wiring to the injector

Short in the wiring to the injector

Bad PCM

Read more at: 

https://www.obd-codes.com/p0201Copyright OBD-Codes.com

 

[Barrykearley]

Injector wiring goes under the plenum and can get damaged through heat and age. I certainly saw and fixed that on my v8. It would be worth a set of gaskets to look and check it out. 

If it's the ecu - you are gonna have real heartache

[Grahaml]

3 hours ago, Vulcan Grey said:

P0108 is the MAP sensor circuit high (meaning a short to voltage?).

 

sorry - my bad typing (and rushed proof reading) the codes were P0201, P0202, P0203.... through to P0208 (not P0108).

So the codes were all Injector circuit malfunction, cylinders 1 to 8 - all cylinders.  So I reckon not an injector issue as it appplied to all - most likely part of a circuit or connection that applies to all cylinders/injectors.

I've attached screenshot of the OBD app I was using and extract from workshop manual relating to the codes

[Vulcan Grey]

Check your inertia switch first

[Barrykearley]

You should here the fuel pump running as soon as you turn the key.

ensure the ecu connection is fully locked home 

[mike_sekinger]

I have a gut feeling that your issue is the ECU itself, but check:

- inertia switch and connection

- ECU earth on bell-housing

- ECU connector

If those show no problems, I would search for a friendly V8 owner or spare ECU and check if swapping out the unit solves the problem.

The units are known to suffer from poor solder connections, not eased by the vibration and heat cycling.

Good luck,

Mike S

[andydclements]

The V8 (similar to later 4 to) have an in-tank pump that doesn't tick, it whirs. If you have silence when you switch on the ignition, then you have a problem, although that can be a simple as the inertia switch as called out by Travis and Mike. That's also the easiest to fix of all the possible problems. Also with the pump, the noise can change slightly, from when there's a cold-start, to a different note once pressure has built up in the fuel circuit. If it was the pump, then i'd have thought there'd be a warning code showing for low fuel pressure (I don't know the V8 ECU warnings).

So it's in the hands of the V8 Gurus, and as they've indicated, unless it's a really big coincidence, and all injectors simultaneously failed, it's likely ECU or ECU related, It has to be something common to all cylinders. 

[Grahaml]

Thanks for feedback so far;

12 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

Injector wiring goes under the plenum and can get damaged through heat and age. I certainly saw and fixed that on my v8. It would be worth a set of gaskets to look and check it out. 

If it's the ecu - you are gonna have real heartache

I will have a look under the plenum again - I had it off at the beginning of the year and replaced the coils and fitted new magnecor HT leads.  I'll do the other stuff first I think though to save dismantling if I can avoid it.  The car was running fine until it cut out!

7 hours ago, Vulcan Grey said:

Check your inertia switch first

I pressed the switch - couldn't detect any moveemnt in the switch.  The car does run until it stops - and just waiting a minute lets it start again.  I might try bypassing the switch - it looks do-able from the wiring diagram - am I right?

3 hours ago, Buddsy said:

Does the V8 have the same problems as a 4 pot does with a worn/old fuel pump? Just sounds the same symptoms I had when my pump didnt have enough omph to raise the fuel.

buddsy

As I've been trawling through various other issues that did occur to me.  There are two pumps in the V8 - and I can hear it when I switch the ignition on for mayby 3 or 4 seconds.

3 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

You should here the fuel pump running as soon as you turn the key.

ensure the ecu connection is fully locked home 

as above - i do hear the fuel pump - but I guess still a possibility that it's not right?  I haven't checked the ECU connection - where is it exactly? it looks like the ECU is on the check list anyway.

2 hours ago, mike_sekinger said:

I have a gut feeling that your issue is the ECU itself, but check:

- inertia switch and connection

- ECU earth on bell-housing

- ECU connector

If those show no problems, I would search for a friendly V8 owner or spare ECU and check if swapping out the unit solves the problem.

The units are known to suffer from poor solder connections, not eased by the vibration and heat cycling.

Good luck,

Mike S

Thanks Mike The earth strip from the ECU to the bell housing came up in a previous reply (I think from you also) and is an easy check - I saw another issue I that it might be worth an extra/replacement earth strip from the battery.  I hapy I can maybe test these out using a jump lead?

I thoink I will have more difficulty getting an ECU swap but if  can find someone or a company that can check, repair/refurish mine that would be an area to look to?  I could certainly give mine a close visuual inspection.

1 hour ago, Buddsy said:

On the 4 pots as they get older they dont have enough omph to raise enough fuel. You can hear them ticking but will not supply the fuel to the engine.

No idea if the later cars have the same problem though?

buddsy

As above - certainly something I can look into - I'll try the less intrusive stuff first though

 

Thanks all

[stephenwhyte]

I’m pretty sure there’s an early yellow V8 still in at Craig’s plsce Graham (it was there’s last week anyway) that had an ECU issue that’s now fixed - maybe worth having a word with him 

[mike_sekinger]

The ECU is located on top of the RH fuel tank board.  The connector is easy to access and confirm that it is installed securely.

[Grahaml]

13 minutes ago, andydclements said:

The V8 (similar to later 4 to) have an in-tank pump that doesn't tick, it whirs. If you have silence when you switch on the ignition, then you have a problem, although that can be a simple as the inertia switch as called out by Travis and Mike. That's also the easiest to fix of all the possible problems. Also with the pump, the noise can change slightly, from when there's a cold-start, to a different note once pressure has built up in the fuel circuit. If it was the pump, then i'd have thought there'd be a warning code showing for low fuel pressure (I don't know the V8 ECU warnings).

So it's in the hands of the V8 Gurus, and as they've indicated, unless it's a really big coincidence, and all injectors simultaneously failed, it's likely ECU or ECU related, It has to be something common to all cylinders. 

thanks Andy - as you might see from my replies above the pump is whirring as expected.  There's also an  additional pump on the V8 that from memory is for high speed duty but does fire up at start also as a check.  The symptoms are not like I would expect from fuel starvation - it just stops - like the ignition is off - but the earlier codes seem to point to a fuel / injector issue.  As you say - it's something affecting all the injectors.

Graham

 

thanks both.

1 minute ago, stephenwhyte said:

I’m pretty sure there’s an early yellow V8 still in at Craig’s plsce Graham (it was there’s last week anyway) that had an ECU issue that’s now fixed - maybe worth having a word with him 

If other avenues fail then I will give Craig a call thanks

1 minute ago, mike_sekinger said:

The ECU is located on top of the RH fuel tank board.  The connector is easy to access and confirm that it is installed securely.

Thanks Mike - I will check that.

[Grahaml]

update:  No joy so far....

It was running then stopping.  I timed the past coupld of occasions as I was checking for faults in wiring/connectors.

It ran for 14 minutes, it wouldn't start again until about 5 minutes later. It started again and just kept running.  I gave up and switched it off for the ady after 45 minutes.

I had been rummaging around under the car (its up on wheel ramps) and I found a set of wires tyhat looked like the could have touched the cats - where they curve up over the driveshafts.  I'd pulled it over a bit and secured it clear with tie wraps - so I wondered if there was something in there. 

Next day went out thinking it would be OK and I would strip that bit of the wiring harness back and see what the problem was/has been but no... tha car wouldn't start at all..

To rule ignition out I checked and am getting sparks.  I pulled a connector off the fuel rail - getting fuel pressure there, so I think that confirms it is an injector systems problem.  

I haven't tried bridging the connectors at the inertia cut off switch - although the connections look good and it was running the day before.

I've removed the boot floor to get better access to everything - and found and cleaned the earth connections from the ECU to the bell housing although the looked good anyway.

I've pulled and reconnected the ECU a couple of times - all looks good at the connection - I think I might pull it out anyway.

I was going to remove the plenum cover next to check any connections under there - leaving the ECU to last!!!

 

And to cap it all my other car - a wee (BMW) mini cooper S Supercharged sprung a leak in a coolant hose and looks like it just migfht have blown a head gasket.  An easy fix compared the the Esprit.  Thanks goodness my wife has a normal sensible (reliable) car....

 

[Barrykearley]

Are those wires clipped to the removable cross brace under the boot floor ?? If so they are the o2 sensor wires and if they are damaged or shorting out you will get some very strange running issues

[Chillidoggy]

Can you do a Freescan log on the V8?

[Barrykearley]

No - it's odbii 

[Günter]

"Say Hello and step in" ..OK, long time not here, but was asked to look over.

What for me is curious is that there is a complete bank of injectors given as inactive.

So, as Mike has already mentioned, the Engine Injector system (engine harness) is feed ground on the bellhousing, and there oxids of steady salty UK weather driving are a bad thing.

My additional tought on this would be:

• the engine block itself needs a solid ground as well ..this goes to chassis and should also be free from oxids on the contact surface, of course
• to proove the integrity of all small wires of the engine system (ECM) undo the multi-contact ECM connector, grab a small needle or paper clip .. and use the workshopbook for harness details ..this way you can first check that all wiring on its own is intact and usable
• for test of "injector feed" from ECM use simple test lights, who mimic an real injector, those are available in garages and should be there to find for right type of injector (different voltage / connector types are in use in automotive world)

 

 

• for verification of fuel pressure a simple hydraulic pressure tester is usable, feed via the Shraeder valve connector on fuel rail (RH side)
• if one of the mentioned fuelpumps is old (normally after around 20 years should be the main pump, the one that does have to run steady) - just bridge the relay that is activated on overboost and on "start up"  .. as only ECM activates this second fuel-pump normally. If you activate this pump manually by manipulating the contact the second fuelpump will run even on idle and medium cruise, and hold the fuel delivery on top level
• if you do this manipulation simply by unplugging of relay, the ECM of course will detect an additional fault and set a code most times
• it is therefore worth to just swap the pumps within wiring iself - or swapp them over physically in the fuel tank (two pumps sit next to each other in a bracket (holder) in the tank on RH side, both pumps are technically the same)

 

..this for now - have to sleep some night on it

SOLERA Holding is my new employer in Germany,  US guys may know what this means mentally ..

[Grahaml]

thanks guys

3 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

Are those wires clipped to the removable cross brace under the boot floor ?? If so they are the o2 sensor wires and if they are damaged or shorting out you will get some very strange running issues

I did find today one wire had worn through and separated and another two had worn bare where the went under the cross-rail at the gearbox.  I sorted that but no affect on starting - and it hadn't had any noticible affect while it was running.

2 hours ago, ian29gte said:

Can you do a Freescan log on the V8?

I trid once and gave up - couldn't get it to run and as Barry said I have been using OBDII scanner and software.  I think I can run Freescan though - and I might get round to it at some point (can I?)

1 hour ago, Barrykearley said:

No - it's odbii 

 

[Grahaml]

Thanks Günter

36 minutes ago, Günter said:

"Say Hello and step in" ..OK, long time not here, but was asked to look over.

What for me is curious is that there is a complete bank of injectors given as inactive.

So, as Mike has already mentioned, the Engine Injector system (engine harness) is feed ground on the bellhousing, and there oxids of steady salty UK weather driving are a bad thing.

My additional tought on this would be:

• the engine block itself needs a solid ground as well ..this goes to chassis and should also be free from oxids on the contact surface, of course
• to proove the integrity of all small wires of the engine system (ECM) undo the multi-contact ECM connector, grab a small needle or paper clip .. and use the workshopbook for harness details ..this way you can first check that all wiring on its own is intact and usable
• for test of "injector feed" from ECM use simple test lights, who mimic an real injector, those are available in garages and should be there to find for right type of injector (different voltage / connector types are in use in automotive world)

• for verification of fuel pressure a simple hydraulic pressure tester is usable, feed via the Shraeder valve connector on fuel rail (RH side)
• if one of the mentioned fuelpumps is old (normally after around 20 years should be the main pump, the one that does have to run steady) - just bridge the relay that is activated on overboost and on "start up"  .. as only ECM activates this second fuel-pump normally. If you activate this pump manually by manipulating the contact the second fuelpump will run even on idle and medium cruise, and hold the fuel delivery on top level
• if you do this manipulation simply by unplugging of relay, the ECM of course will detect an additional fault and set a code most times
• it is therefore worth to just swap the pumps within wiring iself - or swapp them over physically in the fuel tank (two pumps sit next to each other in a bracket (holder) in the tank on RH side, both pumps are technically the same)

 

..this for now - have to sleep some night on it

SOLERA Holding is my new employer in Germany,  US guys may know what this means mentally ..

I'll have a look over and try what your suggesting.  I just need to be logical - fuel pressure might be an issue - would it cause the car just to cut out dead though - I might have expected it to falter and stutter a bit first?

 

When I was out at it earlier today I tried to start it and it felt like it was trying to catch on the first try - but nothing after that.  I checked that the fuel was flowing - but not the pressure.  I can certainly have a look into how to power up the second pump - although from what I read it runs at start anyway before resting again?

 

I never got round to taking the plenum off - I would need to do that to check power at the injectors anyway.

 

Cheers,

Graham

[Dave Hopwood]

Mice love to nest under the plenum and eat the wiring

Happened to my v8 twice

[Vulcan Grey]

On 10/13/2017 at 13:21, Grahaml said:

I trid once and gave up - couldn't get it to run and as Barry said I have been using OBDII scanner and software.  I think I can run Freescan though - and I might get round to it at some point (can I?)

 

It's not Freescan you want for the V8.  You'll need Peter' software here

 

[Günter]

any news on this ?

As Travis told

..918 engine is OBD and CARB compliant with 16pin connector - communication is ISO 9142 protocols

you can use any "full screen" OBD diagnostic system, to monitor live data on ignition timing and fuel-trimming

usable software is as mentioned the free-available diagnostic software created by Peter Maers

most OBD diagnostics who can perform "live data plot" even trigger and store data if engine shuts down, as long as ignition key still is 'on' and connection to ECM is not lost.

 

This means you can copy the "test run" from first startup until it shuts down on roadside on your notebook and load it up here into the V8-group forum section

parameters to document should be at least ignition, fuel trim and anything you do not see with own eyes in the cockpit instruments ..as I guess there was newer any indication or warning light in the instrument cluster that warned you on overheat or check-engine or something like this in advance to the shut down ?

 

 

[Grahaml]

Sorry. No progress. I've been distracted by my mini cooper s.  Had a burst coolant hose, overheated enough to blow head gasket, replaced head gasket, still leaking coolant into oil, take head to be checked and skimmed to find it is cracked. Replacement head collect Monday.  At least it is something I feel I'm making progress on eventually. 

 

I can't get any info from running engine as I can't get it to start now.  I will just need to follow the various suggestions and work through to find and repair the problem. I might get a chance later today to have another look. 

 

I will update as soon as I can. 

Graham

[Grahaml]

I had a bit of time looking at the Lotus this afternoon.

looking over the circuit diagrams (I have a set of workshop manuals) based on advice here I strated to track the circuit.

Fuse - OK

Relay = I was reluctant to take apart so I found one the same (there are lots as it tuurs out) and I swapped the one from the A/C compressor circuit into the fuel pump & injector circuit.  Imediately I got an extra bit of whirring and the car started on the key.  Sorted!!! - I though - it was the relay all along.  I shut it off and restarted several times and it was fine.  I was in an enclosed garage so didn't want to run the engine for more than a few seconds anyway.

However when I opened a door in the garage for air, started the engine and it ran for 12-13 seconds and cut out.  This happened every time (I timed it).

Also the whirring sound remained - even with the ignition off.

As far as I can tell it is the fuel  pump running - circulating (and recirculating) fuel along the fuel lines and back again.  I'm thinking that my problem might be the pump not giving enough pressure to keep the car going.  I will get a pressure tester (there are lots on eBay) and test it.

But - does anyone know if this would give the other symptoms I'm getting - like the pump continuing to run even when the ignition is off.  I had to remove the fuel pump fuse to stop it when I left it tonight.

I also found that fuse B7, 7.5 amp (ignition controls) was blown.  I didn't have a 7.5 so put in a 5 amp for now but I couldn't see any diifference.

I'm wondering if the fuel pressure needs to be higher to actually cut off the pump (even with ignition off??) - sounds a bit strange to me.  Or could there be a wiring problem elsewhere causing that?

I'll do a bit more digging myself - I already found the thread about the fuel pipe as part of the pump splitting and reducing the pressure - that will be one to check anyway)

At least I had it running again (12-13 seconds at a time) !!!

Graham