Blip question

[Bravo73]

Nah, I’m pretty sure that Mr Senna could h&t in any car that you put him in.  😜

[550superfast]

 

[GFWilliams]

On 03/07/2018 at 18:40, chumaxa said:

After all you read here you still make that statement ? Because it works on your car and you think you practice more than others, then it is a human issue ? Good that it works on your car, specially because your car is a 380 also, pretty sure it is different between generations .. No H&T problem in : clio 172 / clio 182 / clio 197 / megane 225 / mazda mx5 mk3 / megane 250 / Lotus exige 192 / Exige 260 / Vx220 / Caterham, then suddenly I am not able to understand how works the S3 (which I have had for 2 years now) ? I play a lot of sim racing as well (no crap like forza of course), and that for years, so I kind of knew how to do it before having interesting cars. Good for you if you improve, but there is no improvement scale here as the behavior is not constant. Like if you try to do a painting, you start with a brush and somehow you get a wok for 20 seconds instead ..  

I’ve had a few similar cars to you including a clio, VX220 and Caterham.   There is no doubt that the Exige V6 is tricky to heel and toe, especially on the road.   For the first month or two of ownership I hated the car for it, especially as I still owned my Caterham at the time, which was perfect for h&t.  It is a frustrating system to learn, but you can learn it with time and then do it perfectly every time.  Having said that, maybe some people don’t have it in them... @JG220 sold his because he couldn’t work it out (it was the car’s fault of course!)

[JG220]

Too true 😁

Fab car though it was, I found it annoying, and didn’t want to have to learn its unique way. Love my VX220 much more from that persective. It was too hot and noisy though this weekend for the 3 hrs I drove it. 

What I really need is something which combines the two. Oh hang on wait...

[RedViper]

I'll chip in my two pence worth.

After getting the traction control light only light on maybe once or twice per year since owning the car on a recent tour of lake district it was happening every journey, so after a quick google I thought the first place to start was changing the brake pedal sensor (I ordered from monkey wrench racing in US and cost nearly £30.... I think its possible to find a lot cheaper at a local motor factor https://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/product/grp-brake-pedal-switch-evora/).

At first it didn't seem to have worked but after a quick text to a friendly lotus master tech he said the way he recommends to install rather than setting 'clicks' is to just pull plunger all the way out, push the brake pedal in and fit and then let brake pedal push switch in and set number of clicks (will make sense when it in front of you).. bobs your uncle all fine now after a month or so.

As an aside (and to get back on thread) and i'm not 100% its not a placebo I do feel its become a lot more consistent when blipping the throttle for heal and toe, which I did used to find inconsistent.

so for  a relatively cheap potential fix if you suffer from heal and toe inconsistency, maybe try changing brake pedal switch.

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by RedViper

[CocoPops]

Interesting... I think my brake switch is too sensitive in the Elise.

you only have to breath on the brake pedal to get cruise to disengage (I think it uses the brake switch).

i also get traction light a few times and also lack of pedal response a few extra times (with no codes or lights).

sounds like it needs clicking in one or two clicks.

[MARTIN_S]

Can anyone post up a drawing/detailed description of what has to be adjusted and, am I the only one who has adverts they cant get rid of, over half of whats been written!?

 

Martin S

 

[Bravo73]

You have a Basic account, Martin. When you upgrade to an FFM, things like ads miraculously disappear. 

[PhilS]

1 hour ago, MARTIN_S said:

Can anyone post up a drawing/detailed description of what has to be adjusted and, am I the only one who has adverts they cant get rid of, over half of whats been written!?

 

Martin S

 

Are you using an iPad by any chance? I have the same issue as you on mine, but the site is fine on the desktop. although the AdBlock add-on might have something to do with that

 

[MARTIN_S]

PC using internet explorer.

[Sharky]

I'm not clear on the brake switch stuff described above and how that would help, or are there examples of faulty/ poorly installed brake positions sensors?

I find the H&T much easier in Race mode on the track when giving it the beans. I've always H&T'd all my cars, and it strikes me that with a slightly sharper throttle response at low revs it would be fine. It just doesn't enjoy being 'mildly' H&Td which is a share. Seems to me there will be a reason why this isn't part of the throttle map. Some drivability or durability reason maybe?

i still think that some of the problem must lie with it being forced induction, ie stalled inlet etc

 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Sharky

[LotusPilot]

The “anti two pedal” mode mentioned within this thread is, I believe, properly known as “brake throttle over-ride” or “BTO”.

If memory serves correctly, the BTO “feature” was introduced by EU and Federal safety legislation.  The feature is intended to mitigate a drivers input to the pedals where the ECU believes the input to be an error - i.e., attempting significant “unintended” throttle input during emergency braking.

Obviously, keen readers amongst this forum (and heal and toe masters) will argue that BTO defeats the pedal input required for effective h&t... where both pedals are covered by the right foot.  While Lotus ECU programming does permit effective heal and toe, timing and method of pedal input appears to be critical.

A futher complication with the Exige,  in context of blipping the throttle, is the Clutch Potentiomenter - this sensor providing control input to the ECU regarding clutch pedal position.  To protect the clutch, the ECU programming will inhibit large throttle opening with the clutch disengaged/slipping - such instances potentially coinciding with attemped h&t.  Simultaneous operation of all three pedals can seriously and dangerously destabilise the car.

Clearly, many of our cars have little or no problem with heal and toe - or throttle blipping.  Where difficulties are experienced, several possibilities exist to explain them - these being driver technique, incorrect sensor adjustment, or defective sensors.  The driving gods, or course, might have some difficulty accepting the possibility of defective or inconsistent technique; other marques may have simpler ECU programming - or may be more tollerant of technique.

 

[Sharky]

On 28/08/2018 at 11:17, LotusPilot said:

Lots of good stuff...

Great response, nice one 👍

[Monza 1968]

I totally agree with CHUMAXA.

Not bothering to comment on H&T techniques or  personal capabilities. That’s ridiculous.

I Purchased a new 2020 Exige Cup 430.

In touring mode throttle response sluggish to say the least. Not so much under load but when free revving from idle or thereabouts. Very slight improvement in race mode as the idle speed is increased by 200 rpm.

Practically impossible to H&T properly. Sometimes no response to the blip other times delayed overreaction.

This unprogressive  or un linear throttle response even makes smooth drive offs at traffic lights not as intuitive  as one  may think.

From this point of view  a very big disappointment from a car which should be a complete driving pleasure.

Hope Lotus will acknowledge the fault  to simplify and rectify the software in order to allow the car to respond more naturally. So far the factory has told me to take it up with the dealer once it has been run in.

It is obvious however this issue has nothing to do with the running in. No faults  by the way  found when linked up with dealer’s computer.

Maybe my car is particularly bad in this respect vs others as I  can’t immagine all the great car reviewers and car testers never brought this issue up.

If this can’t be fixed, much to my regret I will be selling the car to  buy a more humble sports car with a truer, usable  and more satisfying throttle response.

what a shame.

 

[JG220]

I'm afraid there is nothing that can be done other than trying to work around it. 

The Elise doesn't have the same problem, It has other compromises though and I decided that the throttle response on the Exige range was more important than the compromises of the Elise. For a time I thought a Porsche was the answer and that presented an all together different set of compromised, like stupidly long gearing. 

It might be worth persevering with it a bit. I had a brilliant time at spa with the V6 Exige. Loved it but gave up heal and toeing with it there. 

[Monza 1968]

18 minutes ago, JG220 said:

I'm afraid there is nothing that can be done other than trying to work around it. 

The Elise doesn't have the same problem, It has other compromises though and I decided that the throttle response on the Exige range was more important than the compromises of the Elise. For a time I thought a Porsche was the answer and that presented an all together different set of compromised, like stupidly long gearing. 

It might be worth persevering with it a bit. I had a brilliant time at spa with the V6 Exige. Loved it but gave up heal and toeing with it there. 

Thank you for your reply.

Life  is a compromise unfortunately...  I will certainly persevere for a while as suggested . The Exige is a stunning car but as said equally disappointing from  a full driving  satisfaction standpoint. The choice of a this model  was largely based on being able to  fully enjoy  “an old school manual gearbox experience”  associated with the new V6 engine.

Given the nature of the car, the  last thing I would have expected is a non intuitive throttle response. 
thanks

[pete]

When the car does this and won't pick up on the revs how do you get it back to normal

[KennyN]

I noticed a huge difference between the Elise and the Exige when H&Ting.  Nowhere more than at Hethel when I was doing my Lotus Licence last year.  I was convinced that I was going to struggle with the H&T exercise in the Elise, due to the variable experience I'd had in my Exige, but it was really easy in the Elise.  I've found my Exige to be better in Race or Sport than, Normal, but it's still far from consistent.  The Exige 410 that we used for the Gold Licence day was even worse than my 350 when it came to the consistency of the rev matching, which lead to some interesting moments from going flat out on the straights to being fully committed on the brakes.  It made me feel better when my instructor fared no better than I did in getting a consistent blip on the downshifts. 

[Monza 1968]

Thanks for sharing your experience.

I am sure Lotus could have fixed the problem which would have made the car really quite fantastic and far more gratifying and enjoyable if this problem had been addressed.

As it stands it really takes a lot of the fun and satisfaction away which is a great shame.

 

 

[KIMUTAKU]

I agreed with OP, it really sucks that the car behaves like this.  But after having the car for 6 months now, I have “worked” my way around it.  First I only drive in Sport mode.  Secondly I allow myself a bit more time and try to be super smooth.  Get those H&T downshifts done earlier than you would in other cars.  Not perfect 100% of the time, but doesn’t bug me too much now.  Still love the s3 exige.

 

Cheers!  

[Monza 1968]

2 hours ago, KIMUTAKU said:

I agreed with OP, it really sucks that the car behaves like this.  But after having the car for 6 months now, I have “worked” my way around it.  First I only drive in Sport mode.  Secondly I allow myself a bit more time and try to be super smooth.  Get those H&T downshifts done earlier than you would in other cars.  Not perfect 100% of the time, but doesn’t bug me too much now.  Still love the s3 exige.

 

Cheers! 

 

Hi Kimutaku.

Thank you for your comments.

I think my car must be particularly bad in this respect as more often than not the engine actually seems to initially choke completely upon blipping the throttle under braking and tends to do the same even when the brake is not applied so not sure what the answer will be.  

It is not what I want because I intended to HT myself ( as I have done for many years) but I have been advised by the dealer that linking an electronic Autoblip device gets the engine to rev almost instantly.

If that is the case surely there must be some kind of recalibration/remapping or reprogramming of the throttle response possible...