Brexit

[Barrykearley]

Fret not - thankfully democracy has saved you from yourself 👍

[Neal H]

That’s the problem with democracy, you don’t always get the result you want. On balance though, it’s still better than all the alternatives.

[Doug Ashley]

So everyone of the 52% of the advisory referendum voted for the exact same thing?

[C8RKH]

7 minutes ago, Doug Ashley said:

So everyone of the 52% of the advisory referendum voted for the exact same thing?

Nope they did not. Just like everyone of the 48% did not vote for the same thing 

Come to think about, only about 25% of current citizens in the UK voted to join the common market. 0% of them voted for a European Army. A political armed border force. A Federal European State.

Democracy at least does appear to be functioning in the UK, even if the result was not to everones liking.

Time to move on from who voted what otherwise the UK will mirror Scotland where half the people are still bitching and moaning about Politics from 400 years ago.

[Doug Ashley]

Democracy dies when the winners try to shut down debate.  I didn't see Brexiters moving on from the result of the 1975 referendum, because things change.  Our relationship with the EU is fluid, and we can still respect the Brexit vote while working towards a much better arrangement than what we've ended up with.

[Neal H]

23 minutes ago, Doug Ashley said:

So everyone of the 52% of the advisory referendum voted for the exact same thing?

Not sure how this applies?

As far as I can remember there were two options on the ballot paper, not seven - Stay or Leave. Quite simple really.

Of course, people would have voted either way for many different reasons, just as people will vote either Labour or Conservative (or whatever) for many different reasons. As said, democracy isn’t perfect, but it is the best system and it’s important to respect the outcome or the danger is it falls apart. A lesson I still think the European Commission has to learn.

[Chillidoggy]

1 hour ago, Doug Ashley said:

Unfortunately, Steve and I are stuck with you in the lift after 52% of you voted we must all get in. We did point out the 'closed for maintenance' signs, but apparently exit meant exit.

It’s not the 52% who are still dripping about it, though. Neither do we have your superior ‘We know better” attitude.

[910Esprit]

That cartoon demonstrates if you want grey walls until the end of time, or until the EU decide to paint them orange, you're better off voting remain

Edited August 4, 2021 by 910Esprit

[Barrykearley]

43 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Time to move on from who voted what otherwise the UK will mirror Scotland where half the people are still bitching and moaning about Politics from 400 years ago.

Latest polls for Queen Nicola ain’t so good

[basalte]

I see that Richard Burnett, the Chief Executive of the Road Haulage Association, is somewhat concerned. On 25th July 2021 he commented that :

" We`re facing potentially in the next 2/3 weeks a collapse of the supply chain and we will see even bigger gaps on supermarket shelves because we cannot get product into the supply chain. ...

This is a massive crisis - a crisis on a scale of which we have never seen before in this industry and Government is burying its head in the sand -it`s not recognising the seriousness of the situation

....we want the Government to recognise drivers and grant temporary visas to get more drivers into the country".

Now I am well aware of the "Pingdemic" playing a part-a very convenient catch-all scapegoat IMHO, and the frankly barking gutter press assertion that Tony Blair let aspirant HGV drivers go to university instead of their passion (?) for driving lorries (ie . over 14 years ago-and I would like to see a country where they can do both at different times of their life and not get into debt for the privilege but I digress ). 

But the inescapable conclusion(which from looking at many many previous posts I have no doubt some here will try to escape from nonetheless !)-the inescapable conclusion- is that the ending of the Single Market and Free Movement has negative consequences for the employment of HGV drivers.  Or is Mr. Burnett just another Project Fear spreader ?

   

[mg4lotus]

18 minutes ago, Chillidoggy said:

It’s not the 52% who are still dripping about it, though. Neither do we have your superior ‘We know better” attitude.

Having followed this thread it would appear to me that both sides of the argument continue to drip on about it.

[DaveC72]

26 minutes ago, Chillidoggy said:

It’s not the 52% who are still dripping about it, though. Neither do we have your superior ‘We know better” attitude.

Sorry, but that's a weird thing to say.  Surely being on one side of a debate or another by it's very nature means that you believe that "you know better"?

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, Doug Ashley said:

Democracy dies when the winners try to shut down debate

Usually this has been the behaviour of Remainers shouting down any reasoned debat usually through referrint to people who voted Brexit as being:

Thick. Dumb. Stupid. Racist. Fascist. Fookwits. Retarded.  Plus many more things all with a healthy dose off arrogance and a sprinkling of doom.  Just my observation on how the "debate" has been stifled/suppressed.

 

[DaveC72]

I don't think we've had any of that here, though?

 

[910Esprit]

4 hours ago, Doug Ashley said:

Democracy dies when the winners try to shut down debate.

Democracy was in intensive care when Parliament did its level best to overturn the result.   Does anyone remember Jo Swinson?   Thought not.....   (and Kier Starmer for that matter)   

[C8RKH]

Yes. The behaviours were pretty desperate and undemocratic.

Mind you, again, same in Scotland when YES lost

[Barrykearley]

https://www.heritagecarinsurance.co.uk/newsroom/news-and-articles/green-cards-for-driving-in-eu-to-be-scrapped-in-august-2021/
 

so if they can scrap green cards - then no issue with scrapping border checks - which aren’t an issue at the Swiss border 

[100th_Idiot]

Switzerland have their own agreements with the EU which means they don't require border checks but also restricts what they can do outside the EU. As I understand it they have lots of individual agreements rather than one overriding one. The EU don't like it as it is painful to maintain all the agreements so they want to consolidate to one. The Swiss so far don't like that is it imposes more restrictions.

It's one to get the popcorn out for.

 

[thebartman]

On 03/08/2021 at 17:07, Chillidoggy said:

Dunno about anyone else, but I personally stopped listening to John Major over 30 years ago.

I thought he gave fab interviews on Spitting Image

[RobinB5]

Chris Beckett is a very good Sci-Fi author and, although this is sort of a Sci-Fi novel, it's a more an examination of class and political divide in the UK in the context of Brexit. Well worth a read, if nothing else but to appreciate one possible consequence of tribalism.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/50354023-two-tribes

 

[Kimbers]

I am a huge supporter of Europe, but not the EU as an organisation. I love their ideals, but hated the way they operated. I liked to be able to drive to France and through Europe and did so regularly, but that didn't stop me disagreeing with the way they enforced freedom of movement. 

The EU is a perfect example of a Good idea terribly done. That's why I voted leave. Despite having lived in the Canaries and Italy, I wanted Brexit because the Ideal didn't meet the reality. 

 

[C8RKH]

Amen.

[Doug Ashley]

On 19/08/2021 at 12:23, Kimbers said:

I liked to be able to drive to France and through Europe and did so regularly, but that didn't stop me disagreeing with the way they enforced freedom of movement. 

 

What exactly was the issue with freedom of movement?  The consensus here seems to be that we welcome migrants who integrate and contribute to the economy.  

Within EU law it states verbatim:

1. All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of longer than three months if they:

1. (a)  are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member State; or

2. (b)  have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32004L0038&from=EN

We just chose never to implement that rule by controlling our borders properly.

We now face a cliff edge of EU workers returning home, without a pipeline of replacements.  It seems there is no backlog of Brits looking for work which was taken over by EU workers, which might have been an argument for ending free movement but appears to be a myth.  We are now seeing the effects with supply chain issues in many industries.  Brexit is not the only factor, but it's a big one.

Meanwhile, I now do not have the automatic right to work or retire on the continent or in Ireland 🤦‍♂️

[C8RKH]

32 minutes ago, Doug Ashley said:

We now face a cliff edge of EU workers returning home, without a pipeline of replacements.

We currently have around 1.6/1.7m unemployed people in the UK. Typically around 6% of these will be classed as "unemployable" due to health or other issues. So that comfortably leaves 1.5m unemployed people in the UK.

What was that you were saying about not having a "pipeline of replacements"?

If the Government (red, blue, yellow, green etc) was really serious about making the UK better this "pipeline" of candidates would be mobilised.

So, we have a shortage of truckers - OK, Government sets up a scheme to retrain unemployed to drive trucks. Yes, it costs £2-£3k to train them, but as soon as they start working you get a double hit - tax and NI income and less benefits being paid. The Government would recoup that money in months...

Same with plumbers, electricians, joiners, brickies, etc.  Give them their dole money in return for them attending free training courses that lead to a guaranteed job - hey Mr HouseBuilder, you've been crying like a baby re skilled resources, so we will create them, you will guarantee them a job, yes?

We could go on....

It is not rocket science, it just needs someone who actually gives a flug to pick up the mantle and address the issues head on, with a clear plan, a dose of common sense, and hit it head on with ACTION.

I like to think that as a positive Brexit voter I look for solutions, rather than just sitting on the side3 pointing out the issues and how shit it is and how it is Brexits fault. Implement the above, and Brexit would have been a huge success that got 1.5m Britains back in to self sustaining work. A practically near zero unemployment rate. A lower benefits bill. And a thriving economy. At that time, you can then open the borders however you want....

 

 

 

[Barrykearley]

Ummm hang on - what about my neighbour whom is fully able to work - has been retrained by the ESA folks to be a sparky and simply cannot be arsed to get out of bed and do a days graft?