Brexit

[Barrykearley]

Don't think we will see a violent proper revolution.

what we will see is a huge political change - and in short time I suspect.

the political classes are simply so disconnected with the working man now it's unreal. All I hear is unemployed this, immigrant that, human rights, disability, entitlement, lessons learned, blah blah blah. 

What I'm seeing is lots of folks working damn hard and getting taxed to the hilt, massive multinationals earning loads and paying nothing, generations of families sat on "entitlement" payments to keep them watching to all day doing nowt.

for me - I think brexit was the indications of the thin edge of the wedge. I suspect I'm not alone in my frustrations. The political elite will no doubt paint me as an old Dinosaur with intolerant dirty beliefs - they seem to have this huge broad brush out to supress the grumbling

[silverfrost]

Dave,  No matter what he percentage of vote was won by, it was won. And by a percentage wise you are talking over a million people.  Regarding a back track on the result,  It will not happen, hence May saying the people have voted and have shown what they want and we will do it. 

The goverment knows full well what would happen if it did not follow through, something along the long line not seen in this country for years since the Cromwell era.   This country would burn without a doubt.

[silverfrost]

Also France is set to have the vote fairly soon and i feel they will opt out also, on the cards for Germany also.  The EU is aged and dead in the water.  Hence another reason why on no account we would even bother back tracking. Once the sour remain folk learn to keep it shut everything will settle, it is these people that have put he damper on the exit. 

[Barrykearley]

The lack tidal waves, earthquakes and locust plagues changes the pictures painted by the political elite of brexit risks.

we were told interest rates would rise - hmm.

unemployement would rocket - hmm

house prices fall - hmm

manifacturing fall to ruin - hmm

stock market fail - hmm

all our pensions would be at risk - hmm 

well - they haven't done very well with their predictions so far have they. Just goes to show our country is great. Listening to the Eurocrats yesterday in the eu club made my blood boil. " we don't like polish workers being killed in Essex in hate crimes " or words to that effect. Yes that's bad and wrong. But he's missed the point. Huge un-controlled migrant gangs in Calais, groups of the same raping and abusing women all over Europe, riots in parts of Paris and places in Germany. 

The word disconnected I'm sure was actually created just for these chaps

[DaveyT]

Don't get me wrong, guys, I voted out, and remain convinced that it is the right thing to do, for many of the reasons Barry outlines above

also totally agree on EU being the dinosaur here..but big corporates have significant reason to try to keep us in, and I doubt all their methods will be clean and above board.

 

[silverfrost]

The only ones worried are the elite as they have been milking the EU system for years especially the EU rep MPs, they will have to find another way now to sit around doing nothing and getting payed in the boys club.  Look at David Cameron, I bet he is gutted also as i would imagine he would of tried landing a job in the EU at some point.  

Seems like the ideal candidate for the EU also,  quits as pm as he cant hack loosing, quits as mp as he cant hack it.... equals ideal euro zone mp. Or would of if we would of still been part of it.  But at least he still has farthers inheritance money to fall back on. Which i an pretty sure he also did not pay the correct tax on.  

But Dave is down to earth look he bought a 1400 quid motor for his wife, the pm is down with the poeple. my arse 

[Barrykearley]

I really liked Dave - but he sold out on his principles when he said he would get a good deal, went and got a shit deal, came back and said it was great lets remain.

if that man had any principles or backbone he would have come back and campaigned for Brexit. He would have then enshrined himself as a great politician like Churchill 

[silverfrost]

Yes agree David did come back with his tail between his legs, yet gave it the big am I.  Poland was never going to agree to stop benefits as most of its born residents reside in the UK. Given Poland now has to get its prison inmates to work in factories now   to keep its industrial wheel turning just highlights the problem.

But even if David had returned with a list of brilliant looking new terms, it would of been all pie in the sky anyway as the EU would of made sure that everything was reversable in thier favor which is why we voted out along with many other reasons.

A country need to rule itself, simple.  Learn from the sadness in Greece this is what  the EU does to countries. 

[basalte]

I`m used to the epithet "deluded" from people of a right-wing persuasion-it`s a useful catch-all shorthand term to decry someone else`s view and in any event Corbyn is merely the symptom not the cause of rumblings in this country which people of whatever political persuasion need to pay heed to  ; in my estimation there are many who have delusions about Mrs. May`s competence, (or Boris Johnson`s love for his country rather than himself). Its standard political knockabout but we are not here to play insult ping-pong.

There`s more I agree with than disagree with in this thread-and I`m not just saying that to be nice. People have lost faith in the political classes, the media is biased towards the elites, the EU is not fit for purpose  in many ways, and just days after proclaiming "Brits don`t quit" Mr. Cameron quit  and has now quit the Commons just before he got slagged off for blowing up Libya -what a strange coincidence ! But the solutions ? Yes there is disagreement. I am finding it hard to see how this country can pay its way in  the short term given the corrosion of our industrial base, the disastrous decision to go ahead with Hinckley B and the overall lack of investment in infrastructure where taking a plane costs less than the train-madness. My answer is planned massive investment in appropriate infrastructure (is HS2 appropriate ? Heathrow appropriate ? Doubtful)  for employment and future economic growth. That does require Government action-and I can see no sign that they are serious about it. 

Yes it requires borrowing (at historically low interest rates) and spending although the billions currently squirrelled away in tax havens doing nothing, would help.

Now "Socialism" whatever that is. Hitler, Gadaffi and Tony Blair all called themselves Socialists. Margaret Thatcher called New Labour her "greatest achievement" so to use your reasoning she was a Socialist too ! I`m sure you didn`t mean that.   Leaving aside the nutjobs and war criminals, I remain convinced that there is a role for strategic Government intervention where the market cannot or will not operate or is administratively inappropriate. The privatised Railways are the best example of  dysfunctionality where other countries` state controlled railways are running our railways ! Totally Deluded. There is also a role for Government to ensure that people who lose out through no fault of their own can continue to lead a dignified life. Thanks to Joseph Stalin in particular we have been brought up to believe that Socialism at worst means you have to eat turnips, do folk dancing or get shot or stuck in a Gulag if you refuse and at best wastes your money on scroungers. All very useful to those who want to keep us in our place-"look what happens if you try to change things Peasants" . On the other hand Saudi Arabia is a capitalist country but not at all pleasant to be in unless your surname is Saud. 

I think Socialism is indeed obsolete in the political sense of wanting to control culture and peoples` lives but in its classic sense it was always about empowering people to free themselves from wage-slavery and to give them freedom from ill-health and insecurity in particular. I do not believe that this can be achieved by the private sector.        

Edited September 15, 2016 by basalte

[Kimbers]

3 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

No matter how much remain rhetoric and noise we hear in the media. Do not underestimate the amount of folks who will be outraged if this doesn't go through.

it will change our country very quickly if this is reneged upon imho.

 

I agree. The way I see it, if it is reneged upon the referendum result every voter who voted to leave will vote UKIP (thats over 52% for those that are unsure). I would also expect mass migrations from Conservatives and even Labour to UKIP or forming their own break away parties. 

Since 1945 and our 3 party system the highest win was 49% in 1955. But recently 2005/10/15 the winning party is around 36%. 

The rest of the vote would be split between the other 3 and UKIP would then ensure the will of the majority of the people was carried out. 

Now, I am not saying this is a good thing, it is merely what I think would happen and its a very realistic prospect if the will of the people is not carried out. The unrest and upheaval in the "system" backing out of the result would cause would make July 2016 look like a cake walk IMHO.

[Kimbers]

1 hour ago, basalte said:

I`m used to the epithet "deluded" from people of a right-wing persuasion-it`s a useful catch-all shorthand term to decry someone else`s view and in any event Corbyn is merely the symptom not the cause of rumblings in this country which people of whatever political persuasion need to pay heed to  ; in my estimation there are many who have delusions about Mrs. May`s competence, (or Boris Johnson`s love for his country rather than himself). Its standard political knockabout but we are not here to play insult ping-pong.

There`s more I agree with than disagree with in this thread-and I`m not just saying that to be nice. People have lost faith in the political classes, the media is biased towards the elites, the EU is not fit for purpose  in many ways, and just days after proclaiming "Brits don`t quit" Mr. Cameron quit  and has now quit the Commons just before he got slagged off for blowing up Libya -what a strange coincidence ! But the solutions ? Yes there is disagreement. I am finding it hard to see how this country can pay its way in  the short term given the corrosion of our industrial base, the disastrous decision to go ahead with Hinckley B and the overall lack of investment in infrastructure where taking a plane costs less than the train-madness. My answer is planned massive investment in appropriate infrastructure (is HS2 appropriate ? Heathrow appropriate ? Doubtful)  for employment and future economic growth. That does require Government action-and I can see no sign that they are serious about it. 

I think Socialism is indeed obsolete in the political sense of wanting to control culture and peoples` lives but in its classic sense it was always about empowering people to free themselves from wage-slavery and to give them freedom from ill-health and insecurity in particular. I do not believe that this can be achieved by the private sector.        

Dan, you make a cognitive and as always, thought provoking argument. Whilst we come from different ends of the spectrum historically, I think we have moved closer to each others ideals in recent years. 

I cannot but help think that Corbyn is a relic of far left Socialism. Whilst his ideals are all well and good they don't have any bearing on the real world today. Many of his policies are left wanting financially and as Andy says, many of his supporters are intimidating MP's, threatening and seem to harken from an era where "You will do as I say or I will metaphorically punch you in the face". I watched one of his supporters, for example, abuse a Jewish MP live on TV and make anti semetic remarks without any come back from Corbyn. In fact, just putting that in Google comes up with loads of bullying and threatened violence by Corbyn supporters against those that simply disagree with him!

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tearful-jewish-mp-storms-out-8317511

I think that Corbyn is a danger not only to the Labour party but to the country, it's national values and it's safety.

That said, Theresa May is my biggest dislike in British Politics today. she and Jeremy Hunt have single handedly undermined our emergency services, NHS and basic beurocracy that runs the country to a level where it is all about to crash and burn! For example:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/22/theresa-may-has-left-britains-police-demoralised-and-angry-now-w/

We need something new in Politics and Corbyn's Communist values are not it and the Tories are not it. The Liberals are a useless spent force and everyone is sick to death of Namby Pamby politics, political correctness, positive discrimination against the majorities and the middle classes and what is seen as injustice inherant in the system. For example: If you are on a low income you get assistance by the Govt and organisations, if you are rich you don't need any assistance and can happily avoid taxes and afford to pay people to find the best investments, tax breaks and accounting "anomolies". Yet if you are middle classed, have a family, 1 or 2 cars and a mortgage you don't get assistance, can't afford all the things rich people can, struggle to send your kids to Uni and avoid them having a £50-70k loan at the end, don't get assistance with anything "Means tested" AND can't avoid any taxes. As a % of your income you also pay more in taxes and living, yet have to accept it when you can't get your kids into your local school because of the number of people who have moved into the area, and your kid didn't do enough in their 11+. I have sold my car, haven't been on a holiday abroad for 3 years and struggle some months (as I am on a commission basis) to even pay the mortgage. Yet I have 2 kids at home, one with Autism, one with Aspergers, 2 daughters, one who is a single mom and needs help every month and one who was in Uni who we helped out for 5 years and never had a single piece of help from anyone.

Grrrrr.

Sod the "If we don't Brexit there will be change" there needs to be a massive change right now!

 

 

[C8RKH]

@Basalte "  The privatised Railways are the best example of  dysfunctionality where other countries` state controlled railways are running our railways "

You can say the same about energy, water and a few other industries too. The only thing "dysfunctional" here was that the UK did what it was told and played by the rules laid down by the EU. The French, Germans and Spanish as usual pointed two fingers to the EU rules, declared a whole bunch of state run companies and industries as "strategic national importance" and then gave these companies billions of Euro's in state sponsored aid to rape the UK's industries.

Many of our industries and our manufacturing base have been crippled and whittled away by the uneven playing field that is the common market. The ones it has not crippled have suffered through poor management and poorly efficient work-forces. The rest, the small minority, have actually prospered despite it all.

Oh, and where was Mr. Juncker and his EU bureauprats then - Oh yes, he was agreeing and setting up tax havens in his native Luxembourg to diddle the EU out of corporate tax income, unless of course I am totally mistaken and confused.

This is what the EU has only ever done for us - taken the piss and taken advantage. Even the subsidies we get are our own money anyway and we are expected to be grateful too -- "lend me a tenner mate and when I give you £5 back you better thank me".

Europe has never seen the UK as being a true part of Europe (was it 3 times the French blocked us from joining the common market, or four!). We are a necessary evil as they covet our flexibility and the way we change our rules to make the best of the economic and international situation - we are seen as a cash cow to be milked, whipped and suckered until we wither and die in the field.

We have kept growing during the recent ten years of doom and gloom. Whilst the EU has floundered, the heavily bloated and overweight public sectors they insist on sustaining have dragged their economies to the bottom, we, have adapted. We have changed. We have taken some very hard decisions. But as a result, we have prospered and developed. The EU hates us - we are successful despite them. We forge our path - without them. They envy our success and hate our independence. We really are better off and let's trade under WTO rules. Whatever duties are imposed on our goods, we put on theirs. As a net importer of goods from the EU, who does that hurt the most?  Our services will suffer, but then we will change and adapt - something the EU cannot do, and so we will yet again find a way to be successful. We need to believe. 

 

 

[Andyww]

3 hours ago, basalte said:

The privatised Railways are the best example of  dysfunctionality where other countries` state controlled railways are running our railways ! Totally Deluded.

I agree about the railways. Margaret Thatcher recognised that privatising fixed infrastructure in this way was not the right way which is why she resisted this, but she was overruled by the Major government. 

Privatisation works where there can be accountability, competition and when there are strict rules about vested interests of those drawing up the contracts. Rules which we dont have unfortunately.

Tax avoidance has been mentioned. An interesting point which is not fully appreciated is that Osborne, for all his faults, cracked down massively on the ability of "the rich" to avoid tax. I was discussing this with our accountant who runs a large practice, all of the dodgy Isle of Man and other schemes were shut down. The area which still needs looking at is corporate taxation in either tax havens or (mostly) facilitated by EU permitting deals such as the Ireland and Luxembourg. The Luxembourg deals should be cracked down on but dont expect this as they were set up by Juncker as mentioned above.  

[Chillidoggy]

Anyone else here old enough to remember British Rail? I am, and it was utter shite, no other words for it. Dirty, late, indifferent or downright rude staff, ageing carriages, and delays all over the place due to strikes. It was the laughing stock of the country, and if anyone thinks any government is capable of running an efficient service, then they're delusional. I remember the introduction of the Inter-City 125 trains, and reading a piece of graffiti on one of the posters that read "Now you can be late, quicker." Summed it up nicely.

But the main thing for me about rail nationalisation is this: I don't want to have to pay taxes so some other bugger can be transported around the country on the cheap. No one pays for me to go anywhere, except me. So unless the government is going to subsidise my transport costs, then it's a non-starter as far as I'm concerned.

[C8RKH]

Best thing about British Rail was the egg and cress sandwiches on white bread with butter. A heart attack in a box but boy were they good!

The train service these days, by and large is quite good as long as the leaves stay off the line, the sun doesn't shine, or the sh1ts don't go on strike strike!  The ticketing system is a confusing mess and the train operators do not want to change it as they make millions from it.

The biggest change we can make to improve it - make it a reservation only system where the ticket is not refundable but can be changed for another journey for a fee and you are guaranteed a seat - just like the airlines.  That will stop the overcrowding, highlight where supply and demand is strongest / weakest and when, and make the whole journey more pleasurable for all. At the same time, simplify the ticketing system and radically overhaul the charges - it pisses me off that a std single can cost me £36 and yet I get the return for £37 - so make each leg £18.50 and be done with the complexity. Want to choose your seat, charge an extra £1 for that. Simples. Much simpler system, easier to create the IT for, and hey presto, off we go.

Nationalisation - pah, yeah, that will work. The ONLY people who believe they are ENTITLED to a bloody pay rise every year are public sector workers, and yeah right, we really need more of them don't we. When you get NHS regional Chief Execs that are on packages twice that of the Prime Minister then we know we have problem.  The pays only half of it, it's the bloody gilt edged pensions that these buggers get that really costs.

As for the NHS, the biggest part of the NHS, the GP service, has been a monopoly private sector since the inception of the NHS and the BMA is a bigger corporate protector than the CBI, IoD, and CFSB put together. A right bloody state of affairs.

 

[basalte]

I enjoy reading all these and there is always some common ground-at least we don`t behead each other for dissing each others` invisible friends ! Its a start !

I am not sure that any future concept of British public ownership can look to the past for any ideal role model. I think in particular that consumers / passengers need at least as great a voice as the unions and administrators in the way major decisions are reached in key industries and many will be aware that German companies do have permanent workers` representatives on the Board and it doesn`t seem to do them much harm. As to the general debate over the efficiency of the public sector, a typical Government strategy is to starve them of funds then point to them and saying they`re rubbish-then privatise `em for their fat cat friends (who they later join on the Board when they quit as MPs). Sadly it looks like the NHS is getting this kind of kicking as I type.

As a (slightly) Bolshie Brit I am suspicious of injections of "belief" into political groups as a substitute for thought. It automatically excludes those who think differently or want to say "hang on a minute mate ?" and I am well aware that is the danger with "believing" a Corbyn or a Thatcher for that matter. A small minority of "believers "have bullied others just as a more senior Conservative Party activist seems to have bullied poor Elliott Johnson into suicide. Unpleasant types can inhabit all politics. I stress that I do not "believe" in Mr. Corbyn. I merely agree with a lot of what he says in order for our young people to have a decent future in a revived UK.

I am equally suspicious of attempts to convert people to a cause so if I said "Corbyn`s a decent guy-join us, we`re nice people from all a walks of life "  ! It just sounds like I`m a saddo banging a tambourine.

 I wouldn`t blame you for facepalming.

I will incidentally say that he`s not a Communist but  left Social Democrat -after all, Churchill and MacMillan presided over truly mixed economies of the general type he advocates and Edward Heath makes Corbyn look moderate when he nationalised Rolls Royce ! A man who makes jam and grows marrows seems unlikely to whip up mobs of Nazi stormtroopers (copyright Daily Mail -funny old world where I get called that) and anyway where`s his Merc 540 K ? 

I think the shortest answer is really to paraphrase my musings above-I do not trust any newspaper to give a true representation of Mr, Corbyn`s beliefs and better to go to his and related FB pages. The amount of abuse and insults being hurled is...distinctly tame and underwhelming. Facebook " Jeremy Corbyn`s Terrible Thugs" Face book page I had a laugh when I read that...  

Edited September 15, 2016 by basalte

[C8RKH]

Why all the focus on young people having a decent future in the UK - it's the old feckers who will have paid for it with their taxes and in some cases their lives and their limbs! So the older generations must pay for the younger generations. OK, fine. I buy into that. After all, every bloody newspaper and TV news service bleets on about how it is not fair for the youngsters, bless their cotton socks and all that.

Well, bugger me, in return those same little young angels better be prepared to pay for and support this old fecker when he gets old, or, mark why words, there will be trouble even if that means I go and piss my pants over their beloved trendy coffee house sofa's they all love to waste their life in. 

One of the great mysteries of life to me - old feckers are expensive to look after. They're a drain on the NHS and need a lot of care. So why the hell do governments, both Tory and Labour (I will never forgive Brown for his pensions raid - utter and total irresponsibility) constantly want to batter my pension fund, steal from it, or reduce my ability to grow it - after all, if I cannot pay for the care I need when I am, retired then the state will need to pay. Get's me back to the youngsters again who will have to then pay more taxes to look after us old feckers.

The trouble with politics is that every politician has a 3 year forward timescale, a 24 hour past memory of what they did, and always one eye on their next free lunch.

With business these days, thanks to the fecking US business schools and their useless MBA's who think they know everything because they've got a piece of paper in a frame on the desk and gormless company FD's (remember the big accounting scandals like enron? do the research!) it's a 3 month focus on the next quarter, no memory of what worked in the past or made the company a world leader, and one eye on their next promotion and I'm outta here before people realise I've screwed it up.

We're all fecked, but my god, after that rant, I feel great. Off for a drive in the sun!

 

[Barrykearley]

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

 

With business these days, thanks to the fecking US business schools and their useless MBA's who think they know everything because they've got a piece of paper in a frame on the desk and gormless company FD's (remember the big accounting scandals like enron?

 

I've got one of them MBAs !! My old CEO insisted I went on day release...... It does make you think differently to be fair....... Mainly due to all the public sector folks also doing the same course !!

 

5 hours ago, ian29gte said:

Anyone else here old enough to remember British Rail? I am, and it was utter shite, no other words for it. Dirty, late, indifferent or downright rude staff, ageing carriages, and delays all over the place due to strikes. It was the laughing stock of the country, and if anyone thinks any government is capable of running an efficient service, then they're delusional. I remember the introduction of the Inter-City 125 trains, and reading a piece of graffiti on one of the posters that read "Now you can be late, quicker." Summed it up nicely.

But the main thing for me about rail nationalisation is this: I don't want to have to pay taxes so some other bugger can be transported around the country on the cheap. No one pays for me to go anywhere, except me. So unless the government is going to subsidise my transport costs, then it's a non-starter as far as I'm concerned.

Oh - British Rail - yes it was utterly shite - completely 

[C8RKH]

16 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

I've got one of them MBAs !! My old CEO insisted I went on day release...... It does make you think differently to be fair....... Mainly due to all the public sector folks also doing the same course !!

 

 

Explains why our public sectors are so fecked then. I think they call that Q.E.D.

[Barrykearley]

Explains why I work for myself in a manual role on the tools !!! Far less bullshit and corporate ass licking

[Sparky]

Tell me about it.  Won't be long...

[Iconic Ride]

3 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

I've got one of them MBAs !! My old CEO insisted I went on day release...... It does make you think differently to be fair....... Mainly due to all the public sector folks also doing the same course !!

"I never let schooling interfere with my education."

Mark Twain

[C8RKH]

You couldn't make it up...

Hungarian government leaflet brands London 'no-go zone' because it has too many immigrants
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/hungarian-government-leaflet-brands-london-nogo-zone-because-it-has-too-many-immigrants-a3350931.html

 

OECD in Brexit warning U-turn as it revises growth forecast for UK
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/sep/21/oecd-does-a-u-turn-over-brexit-warning-as-it-revises-growth-forecast-for-britain

[Barrykearley]

Cue Nicola Sturgeon whom will now be talking utter pishe about independence - again

[Mark Blanchard]

41 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

You couldn't make it up...

Hungarian government leaflet brands London 'no-go zone' because it has too many immigrants
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/hungarian-government-leaflet-brands-london-nogo-zone-because-it-has-too-many-immigrants-a3350931.html

I think we do a bloody good job of controling 70-80 different nations of immigrants in London.  I get on the London overground train everday and I'm usually the only white person on it and I rarely hear English spoken on it.  All these nations have settled here and we seem to have peace,  So bollock to Hungry.