Lotus Type 131 - The Rumour Mill

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

It’s clear that the big world outside our little Lotus community doesn’t really want manual gearboxes any more. If you want a lightweight 4 pot manual mid-engined sports car, buy an FE Elise quickly. We are the Luddites of today’s automotive consumers. The DCT 4 cylinder Emira may be just what the market wants and there’s always the V6 manual option for the rest of us.

I remember popping in to my local VW dealer a couple of years ago. There was a new DSG Golf R on display and this punter was having a good look. I got chatting with him and suggested how much fun that might be with the cheaper standard manual gearbox and he looked at me as if I was completely mental! He had never even given a second’s thought about buying the manual version.

[jimichanga]

The market is quite happy with their well proven PDK Cayman and Boxster. Prestige badge. Glowing reviews. Chris Harris says you're an idiot to consider anything else. The wife will like it too.

Why would it suddenly want a DCT 4 cyl Lotus instead?

[findinfo]

You could definitely say such is the case, but you could also say that with DCT, sports cars

from Lotus definitely has a chance against Porsche's Cayman and Boxster. And here, couldn't market

suddenly say "I want something different than Cayman and Boxster"? And as for prestige,

couldn't one also argue that with Cayennes and Macans running around, prestige associated with

Porsche might have changed during the recent years? Of course, this doesn't mean that Porsche

is any less prestigious, but with more of them around and more people seeing the badge, perception

must have changed over the recent years right?

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by findinfo
added more lines

[jimichanga]

And if none of that happens (which is far more likely)? What then?

Lotus can't rely on any of that happening in any event. At some point they will need to do something to get the attention of people who currently have little to no interest in them.

And of course Porsche will bring out the next generation of Boxster/Cayman too.

[harrry]

Very happy they are bringing out a final combustion powered car. But surely the top engine option must have a DCT ???

Going to hit sales without one. Where's all the investment money gone if so?

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

We have plenty of auto Evora fans on here. Very few of them complain about the gearbox, particularly in current form. I had a DSG on a VW Passat for 3 years and couldn’t work out what all the fuss was about. Didn’t seem any better than a torque converter auto to me. I went back to a manual with my next one. I think people sometimes get hooked up on the latest expensive fad, when other options are actually OK too if you give them a try.

[Frickin_idiot]

15 minutes ago, jimichanga said:

And if none of that happens (which is far more likely)? What then?

Lotus can't rely on any of that happening in any event. At some point they will need to do something to get the attention of people who currently have little to no interest in them.

And of course Porsche will bring out the next generation of Boxster/Cayman too.

Perhaps you could offer your services to Lotus and let them know exactly where they are going wrong.

[findinfo]

21 minutes ago, jimichanga said:

And if none of that happens (which is far more likely)? What then?

Lotus can't rely on any of that happening in any event. At some point they will need to do something to get the attention of people who currently have little to no interest in them.

And of course Porsche will bring out the next generation of Boxster/Cayman too.

Yes, none of that might happen. But having at least a version with DCT will definitely help Lotus. And Lotus will have to keep looking at different ways

to get more people interested in their cars. And this is where having V6 paired with V6 will help. The press won't be able to say that "well although Emira is

great, it still has automatic gearbox".

 

19 minutes ago, harrry said:

Very happy they are bringing out a final combustion powered car. But surely the top engine option must have a DCT ???

Going to hit sales without one. Where's all the investment money gone if so?

I think so as well. When every car Emira will have to face in different price range all come with DCT, being only car with

automatic could be seen as disadvantage and I think press will make sure that people realize it.

7 minutes ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

We have plenty of auto Evora fans on here. Very few of them complain about the gearbox, particularly in current form. I had a DSG on a VW Passat for 3 years and couldn’t work out what all the fuss was about. Didn’t seem any better than a torque converter auto to me. I went back to a manual with my next one. I think people sometimes get hooked up on the latest expensive fad, when other options are actually OK too if you give them a try.

I've read the review and first hand impressions. But I just think that the press will try to focus on how Emira doesn't have DCT, not how auto in Emira works great. And I think that in turn could discourage people from considering Lotus, something which I think Lotus should try to address.

Edited April 28, 2021 by findinfo
edited lines

[PAR]

The 4cyl high output is likely to come with a mated dct gearbox.

the V6 keeps the same manual. SOS people who want a manual have to fork more!
 

V6 auto may not be DCT but I suspect it is a quite small part of the market.

i for one am slowly warming to a 4cyl, in the world of emission and taxes, it may be the best way to get the best value for money not only at purchase but also over life. 
 

I know I lust more for an esprit gt3 or an S4s that for a v8 so if a brand can rock a 4cyl sports car, it has to be lotus. Someone should circulate tax rate sin different countries to see what the saving of a 2l engine is over a 3.5l engine is!

[Woodman]

1 hour ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

you want a lightweight 4 pot manual mid-engined sports car, buy an FE Elise quickly

Yes, I feared as much so did a month ago. One or two pre specified dealer stock may still be out there, but very few. Just feel its the last of that type of car. 

[C8RKH]

2 hours ago, findinfo said:

biggest issue would be

the overall cost and reliablilty right? I hope Lotus get the engine which prepares them better for

Cayman and Boxster

I think you will find that a curent Lotus is much more reliable, engine wise, than the aforementioned Porsche, already.  Unless I misunderstood your point.

1 hour ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

It’s clear that the big world outside our little Lotus community doesn’t really want manual gearboxes any more

Chris Harris just got drive the latest and first GT3 from Porsche into the UK. Get's into the car and practically his first statement was "god, I wish this was a manual"!  Not a fan but my respect for him moved up a notch.

[Likuid]

1 hour ago, jimichanga said:

And if none of that happens (which is far more likely)? What then?

Lotus can't rely on any of that happening in any event. At some point they will need to do something to get the attention of people who currently have little to no interest in them.

And of course Porsche will bring out the next generation of Boxster/Cayman too.

I have been saying this for a long time about the 131. Lotus needs to make a big splash with it, otherwise it will just be another Evora. Great car, terrible sales. So far, based on what I am hearing, no matter how great the car may look it sounds like its going down the "another Evora" route. I am sure it will be a very good car, but it will most likely be under powered compared to the competition. Using a torque converter for the V6 auto tells me not a lot of effort was really put into the Emira in-regards to the powertrain. I know its supposed to be a "bridge" car, but I was hoping it being Lotus's last ICE they would try to make it the best Lotus by far. 

I own a 400 auto, while its very good for a torque converter it will still be seen as a negative unless Lotus figures out someway to make a torque converter shift as quickly and smoothly as a DCT (which I am not even sure if that is even physically possible). Another problem which has plagued Lotus for ages is weak transmissions. Would be nice if the Emira had a very solid tranny that can take a lot more power than the current Evora. This opens up more potential for Lotus to unlock down the road a long with after market.

People saying "no one cares about the auto" as an excuse is very short sighted IMO. People do care about them, especially in the U.S., but they expect more than a torque converter in such a car. It will also be very confusing to the consumer that the I4 has a DCT and the V6 doesn't. Lotus needs to sell cars and if the Emira does well it means it may either be on market for a longer time or Lotus may reconsider it being their last ICE.

I hope my feelings are misguided, but so far nothing I have heard over the last few days has made me excited for the Emira.

[findinfo]

18 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

I think you will find that a curent Lotus is much more reliable, engine wise, than the aforementioned Porsche, already.  Unless I misunderstood your point.

Chris Harris just got drive the latest and first GT3 from Porsche into the UK. Get's into the car and practically his first statement was "god, I wish this was a manual"!  Not a fan but my respect for him moved up a notch.

What I meant to say was that I wanted Lotus to get a 4 cylinder engine which will allow them get the number they need and still be reliable and cost effective.

55 minutes ago, PAR said:

The 4cyl high output is likely to come with a mated dct gearbox.

the V6 keeps the same manual. SOS people who want a manual have to fork more!
 

V6 auto may not be DCT but I suspect it is a quite small part of the market.

i for one am slowly warming to a 4cyl, in the world of emission and taxes, it may be the best way to get the best value for money not only at purchase but also over life. 
 

I know I lust more for an esprit gt3 or an S4s that for a v8 so if a brand can rock a 4cyl sports car, it has to be lotus. Someone should circulate tax rate sin different countries to see what the saving of a 2l engine is over a 3.5l engine is!

You could be right in saying that market for auto might be small, but I just think that headline for top of the line V6 could be more attention grabbing with DCT.

If Emira is to continue until next generation of electric cars arrive, I think it would have been great if Lotus made necessary investment to have DCT available.

All things being equal, I think people could potentially not take top spec V6 because 1) it's manual and/or 2) its automatic is described as being less then DCT,

no matter how small, by the press.

3 minutes ago, Likuid said:

I have been saying this for a long time about the 131. Lotus needs to make a big splash with it, otherwise it will just be another Evora. Great car, terrible sales. So far, based on what I am hearing, no matter how great the car may look it sounds like its going down the "another Evora" route. I am sure it will be a very good car, but it will most likely be under powered compared to the competition. Using a torque converter for the V6 auto tells me not a lot of effort was really put into the Emira in-regards to the powertrain. I know its supposed to be a "bridge" car, but I was hoping it being Lotus's last ICE they would try to make it the best Lotus by far. 

I own a 400 auto, while its very good for a torque converter it will still be seen as a negative unless Lotus figures out someway to make a torque converter shift as quickly and smoothly as a DCT (which I am not even sure if that is even physically possible). Another problem which has plagued Lotus for ages is weak transmissions. Would be nice if the Emira had a very solid tranny that can take a lot more power than the current Evora. This opens up more potential for Lotus to unlock down the road a long with after market.

People saying "no one cares about the auto" as an excuse is very short sighted IMO. People do care about them, especially in the U.S., but they expect more than a torque converter in such a car. It will also be very confusing to the consumer that the I4 has a DCT and the V6 doesn't. Lotus needs to sell cars and if the Emira does well it means it may either be on market for a longer time or Lotus may reconsider it being their last ICE.

I hope my feelings are misguided, but so far nothing I have heard over the last few days has made me excited for the Emira.

I share your thoughts, Likuid. When every other car Emira is supposed to face in different price range all come with DCT and quite probably more power,

Lotus needs to address at least one of them if they are to bring in sales from people who did not buy Exige, Elise and Evora. I think current top spec

Exige, Elise and Evora all could have done better against current offerings from other companies with transmissions that can make better use of their

strengths.

[C8RKH]

42 minutes ago, findinfo said:

with transmissions that can make better use of their strengths.

So if we are talking about on road, I am struggling with this statement.

My 410 Sport, on a normal twisty A road, makes very rapid progress when just kept in 4th gear with the linear power delivery, with no lag, from the supercharger. In fact, if I use anything move than small inputs to the throttle I am 20mph+ above the speed limit, so 85mph+ in no time at all. So broad is the power band and the power delivery, you don't need to change gear.

You could do the same road just in 3rd gear, from tight 30-40mph corners up to 90mph in one gear, with a soundtrack from  the gods, and all the power and flexibility you can use on a public road.

The vast, vast majority of Porsche cars sold NEVER go anywhere near a track. They are road cars. So, on those roads, i would argue it makes no difference at all which gearbox you have as you would not be lost by the Porsche even if you just used one gear and never changed it on a spirited run.

The argument is really based on fashion - a dual clutch box has become "fashionable". People want one because they have been taught that just like ABS, TC and other acronyms the "best" cars need to have DCT. It is perpetuated by journalists who know better but are pandering to the trends, or the pointers from the respective manufacturers.

Just my view.

[bruchion]

On 27/04/2021 at 07:07, NedaSay said:

Since Lotus won't give us anything until july 6th, Autocar decided to pump out another rendering ... Looks cute with the wing

What is this "Hotwheels"

 

 

[jimichanga]

Agreed all these billions and no steps forward taken with the gearbox, an area Lotus have traditionally had to compromise due to budget constraints.

DCT is just another auto to me, I can't tell any meaningful difference, all are left in D anyway where a torque converter is usually smoother. But agree an option for a DCT would help Lotus hit sales targets which is the be-all and end-all with Emira. It's what Lotus needs, they finally have the money yet they soldier on with what they had before which will affect the reviews and online chatter. Yes, rightly or wrongly DCT is the latest must-have but Lotus have two choices. Find a suitable DCT box or persuade the car buyers of the world that it's just a fad and they are better off with a manual and a torque converter. I suggest the former will be much cheaper and easier to achieve.

Lotus made cars which changed racing and the whole car industry. Now they appear to be making something that might not even move the game on for a Lotus. Unless you consider daily useability the big thing your Lotus was always missing.

Windle has promised unprecedented usablity for a Lotus. But I lament the absence of anything else unprecedented.

[Bibs]

There's a huge amount of assumption which seems to turn into outrage on here based on very little knowledge. Just saying! 6th July isn't that far away, hang onto your hats! 

[Frickin_idiot]

Personally I think that Lotus have played it right. They are getting a fair bit of publicity and will get more when they reveal the car in July. 
 

We as Lotus enthusiasts need to appreciate that the company need major reforms. I want to be in a position to continue to buy Lotus on twenty or thirty years time.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

35 minutes ago, Frickin_idiot said:

I want to be in a position to continue to buy Lotus on twenty or thirty years time.

Let’s hope they move into the disability scooter market then.

[Frickin_idiot]

I’m hoping to continue to be mobile in my sixties. But if I do need a scooter - it’ll be a Lotus one.

[brightoncorgi]

2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

The argument is really based on fashion - a dual clutch box has become "fashionable". People want one because they have been taught that just like ABS, TC and other acronyms the "best" cars need to have DCT. It is perpetuated by journalists who know better but are pandering to the trends, or the pointers from the respective manufacturers.

Just my view.

As long as the downshifts are dramatic with rev matching, relative quickness, and cool sounds...  The how is not as important.  Especially if the Lotus way can be promoted as more reliable and robust.  The upshifts make the same cool burble as a Ferrari or Aston.  What else do you want from a transmission?

[Woodman]

Porsche is not a sports car maker. They make SUV's and sell them in volume and then have a small sports car division. Lotus has a great history and importantly a disproportionally famous brand in the US and some areas of Asia so the brand opportunity is there. To survive they have to make what people buy. It's quite surprising that they are still here having built the very niche cars they have for the last couple of decades. So , yes the 'analogue' era of very niche cars is drawing to a close and we can celebrate those for many years in the 55,000 Elise and derivatives out there. The Emira will be different but brilliant, soo many new dealerships have signed up that have seen more than the public have, it shows confidence. Its powertrains will be as they can be easily specified because in reality the Emira can only be on sale for 8 years in the UK and other western countries are moving that way. I am sure if the 4cylinder motor could be had now in a manual they would have used it, maybe if its a huge success it may still happen. There won't be a roadster because those systems take time and considerable cost to design and the market The Emira wants to appeal to will not tolerate a couple of sticks and roll it out approach. So, celebrate and cherish whatever Elite, Elan, Europa, Esprit, Excel, Elise, Exige or Evora you have or can lay you hands on, lets enjoy the car the Emira will be and then have faith that Lotus can still weave some witchcraft on the electric future. 

[TomE]

2 hours ago, Bibs said:

There's a huge amount of assumption which seems to turn into outrage on here based on very little knowledge. Just saying! 6th July isn't that far away, hang onto your hats! 

I couldn’t wait, so my hat is in the ring already  

[brightoncorgi]

4 minutes ago, Woodman said:

 The Emira will be different but brilliant, soo many new dealerships have signed up that have seen more than the public have, it shows confidence. Its powertrains will be as they can be easily specified because in reality the Emira can only be on sale for 8 years in the UK and other western countries are moving that way. I am sure if the 4cylinder motor could be had now in a manual they would have used it, maybe if its a huge success it may still happen.

The new franchise standards are going to make all the existing franchises do a lot of renovation.  Depending on what other marques are sold along side, a dedicated building may be the only way for them to keep the franchise. 

[Frickin_idiot]

The Dealer network in the U.K. needed a major overhaul in quality and quantity.
 

The dealer local to me has ditched its Lotus franchise - I presume that the level of sales didn’t justify the expense of renovations.