Coronavirus

[Barrykearley]

16 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Maybe I should of used a less extreme example, like the HPV Vaccine for boys that helps protect girls/women from cancer.

Great point - you will note that it’s not compulsory. It was also initially just for girls - it has taken some effort to let boys have this. 

[Colin P]

3 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

Maybe time the government suggested doing that? They could also remove treatment rights for those whom are obese as well? As it’s their choice to be fat?

True, as both you and I commented above, it will divert resource from others who need it. The problem is if you start withdrawing treatment for specific conditions that are self inflicted then where do you stop - most things can be tracked back to "self infliction" depending upon how far you go with the root cause.

Exercise being a good example - withdraw treatment if you don't because you are unfit, withdraw treatment if you do because you are increasing the risk of injuring yourself (by playing football/rubgy/running/skiing or DIY etc).

So basically you'd only treat anything that was hereditary.

[Barrykearley]

1 hour ago, Colin P said:

True, as both you and I commented above, it will divert resource from others who need it. The problem is if you start withdrawing treatment for specific conditions that are self inflicted then where do you stop

And when you start compulsory vaccines policy - where do you stop with that? 
 

it’s the removal of personal choice and the effective punishment of house arrest I have a real issue with.

[Malcolm Feth]

"And when you start compulsory vaccines policy " - when that happens, it will be my first time in London at protests. Never done that before

And I will encourage everybody I know to join.

[Colin P]

1 hour ago, Barrykearley said:

And when you start compulsory vaccines policy - where do you stop with that? 
 

it’s the removal of personal choice and the effective punishment of house arrest I have a real issue with.

1st para - fair comment and in answer to that opinions are going to vary, clearly.

2nd one, I don't support compulsory vaccinations in general, but with all things there are consequences. We are not talking about virtual house arrest here (I'm not going into Austria and France). In all but the most extreme cases (and as far as the UK is concerned) there is a removal of some liberties if you don't get vaccinated.

So basically "these are the high risk environments for those around you, so if you don't get vaccinated we will prevent you from going to these specific high risk locations in order to protect those around you"

This is very different from House arrest and also from compulsory vaccinations.

Personal choice - get vaccinated and go to these places. Don't and you can't.

[exeterjeep]

Been shopping in Sainsbury's today, and only spotted 2 people not wearing masks, compared to a few days ago, there were around 1/3 not wearing them in Tesco's.  (What an exciting life ..)

With regard to personal choice - how far do you extend it, can I choose to drive on the other side of the road, can I drive in excess of the speed limit.... Well we have laws for the greater good, so if those we elected passed laws do we all obey by them.. So if the UK/ England passed a law that only those who were double jabbed (possibly with a booster as well) can't go in non essential shops - how many would conform or not.

 

[PaulCP]

2 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

And when you start compulsory vaccines policy - where do you stop with that? 
 

it’s the removal of personal choice and the effective punishment of house arrest I have a real issue with.

Surely then, in the belief of personal choice, you must agree with compulsory vaccines for certain workers to continue in their jobs.

Take care workers as an example, yes it is their choice no to be vaccinated but, if I was in a care home or needing care, it must also be my choice not to be dealt with by an unvaccinated person.

It becomes a vicious circle so at some point common sense has to prevail over the “it’s my right” brigade.

Interesting also though that Germany, with their insistence on keeping the European Court of Human Rights are prepared to ignore it.

EU rules ok😂

[C8RKH]

Ok, so you're for freedom of choice @Barrykearley. Fine. So you no jabby you need to inform people of your choice when you meet them. So maybe where a badge "im a jab vigilante" or something. That way I can make an informed decision re the risk that you pose to me and my health 

The issue, which I agree is a tricky one, is that choice is two way - you can choose to not be pricked, but if you don't inform me somehow you have taken away my right choose re my assessment of the risk".

I'd never be a fan of a big brother state, but there is not a simple answer here - as ever....

[Barrykearley]

2 minutes ago, PaulCP said:

Interesting also though that Germany, with their insistence on keeping the European Court of Human Rights are prepared to ignore it.

Germany have always ignored people’s human rights in the last century - they hold little regard for the laws and are interested only when it suits.

3 minutes ago, PaulCP said:

Surely then, in the belief of personal choice, you must agree with compulsory vaccines for certain workers to continue in their jobs

The context of that is real now - if you wish to be a surgeon - then you must have certain vaccines. I get that - anyone in that situation has choice. What we have now is a government that has essentially pitted the vaccinated against those whom are unvaccinated. Almost to the point where we are going to have modern day segregation - can you not see how that’s going to end.

1 minute ago, C8RKH said:

So maybe where a badge "im a jab vigilante" or something. That way I can make an informed decision re the risk that you pose to me and my health 

And you would also need to disclose all your personal relevant medical notes 🙄

[Bibs]

As a reality check, covid is only really dangerous to the elderly or vulnerable. We have other diseases which are the same, how many old folks die of flu or pneumonia each year and there's no compulsory requirements for those infected people, you can come and go as you please, unvaccinated and with no masks or social distancing.

It's down to people to realise they're unwell and avoid people unless they want to infect them and if that person it old or unwell, potentially kill them. I'm triple jabbed, wear a mask again now in shops and don't want to catch it, but I'm not sure compulsory vaccination is required. We're 90% vaccinated now too, what are the numbers required for herd immunity again?

https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2514

[C8RKH]

2 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

And you would also need to disclose all your personal relevant medical notes 🙄

Nope. Now you're just getting silly to make a point. I normally do that

 

 

[andydclements]

1 hour ago, Bibs said:

As a reality check, covid is only really dangerous to the elderly or vulnerable. We have other diseases which are the same, how many old folks die of flu or pneumonia each year and there's no compulsory requirements for those infected people, you can come and go as you please, unvaccinated and with no masks or social distancing.

It's down to people to realise they're unwell and avoid people unless they want to infect them and if that person it old or unwell, potentially kill them. I'm triple jabbed, wear a mask again now in shops and don't want to catch it, but I'm not sure compulsory vaccination is required. We're 90% vaccinated now too, what are the numbers required for herd immunity again?

https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2514

Oh, this is a moral dilemma, but whilst I generally agree with you on this (it's the person's choice etc), for me there is one thing that pushes me to the contra view. That's the NHS and it's obligation to treat those irrespective of immunisation status. If the moral obligation to treat didn't exist and so non-inoculated wouldn't take up spaces preventing other critical treatment then I think I'd agree that there's no need to mandate inoculation in order to go places. Since that obligation to treat does exist, then don't we have to do something to try and minimise the cases that take resources away from things like major surgery where an ICU bed is needed post surgery? 

We mandated seatbelts, those (for front seats) only safeguard the wearer, and that was to reduce the number of deaths & serious injuries overall. There are circumstances where the seatbelt can worsen the situation yet they are mandated, so why not COVID-19 inoculation?

[Bibs]

Cigarettes are legal and readily available despite them having a 66% eventual mortality rate plus the associated complications to the living. 

https://ukhsa.blog.gov.uk/2021/07/06/smoking-attributable-deaths-in-england-when-the-information-changes/

Quote

Not long ago, more deaths in England were caused by smoking alone than by alcohol, obesity, drug use and AIDS combined. Last year about as many people in England died from smoking as died from COVID-19.

 

[910Esprit]

Italian man tries to dodge Covid jab using fake arm - BBC News

[thebartman]

Do I recall correctly - that many months ago - the registration of who had which jab (if any) was defnietley "NOT GOING TO BE USED AS A COVID PASSPORT" citation "Boris et. al."?

BTW - can't wait to continue the conversations at tomorow's TLF Christmas party🤮

 

[Barrykearley]

2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Nope. Now you're just getting silly to make a point. I normally do that

 

 

😂 I hear once they have made cv vaccines compulsory that anyone whom voted labour won’t be allowed out to work - shouldn’t be an issue anyway though.

[gregs24]

21 hours ago, PaulCP said:

Surely then, in the belief of personal choice, you must agree with compulsory vaccines for certain workers to continue in their jobs.

Take care workers as an example, yes it is their choice no to be vaccinated but, if I was in a care home or needing care, it must also be my choice not to be dealt with by an unvaccinated person.

It becomes a vicious circle so at some point common sense has to prevail over the “it’s my right” brigade.

Interesting also though that Germany, with their insistence on keeping the European Court of Human Rights are prepared to ignore it.

EU rules ok😂

There are already some jobs where vaccination is required (not COVID) You don't want a surgeon giving you Hepatitis B for example. Of course Hepatitis B isn't political!

[gregs24]

21 hours ago, Bibs said:

As a reality check, covid is only really dangerous to the elderly or vulnerable. We have other diseases which are the same, how many old folks die of flu or pneumonia each year and there's no compulsory requirements for those infected people, you can come and go as you please, unvaccinated and with no masks or social distancing.

It's down to people to realise they're unwell and avoid people unless they want to infect them and if that person it old or unwell, potentially kill them. I'm triple jabbed, wear a mask again now in shops and don't want to catch it, but I'm not sure compulsory vaccination is required. We're 90% vaccinated now too, what are the numbers required for herd immunity again?

https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2514

This is a complex area. Firstly COVID is NOT 'only really dangerous to the elderly and vulnerable'. Even with 'delta' young people are being hospitalised and some will die. There are genetic susceptibilities to COVID and this is an area that is being researched at the moment. Even relatively mild initial disease can lead to 'long COVID' with serious long term problems no matter what age. Remember also you can spread COVID when asymptomatic. A neighbour of ours recently had COVID and was very unwell at home for a week, her husband and son were completely fine, but all three tested positive on lateral flow, suggesting strongly all three were contagious. If the wife hadn't been ill all three would have gone about life normally - that is why it spreads so easily.

Herd immunity really is complex and we are nowhere near it in reality even with high vaccination rates. The reason is the vaccine is not a sterilising vaccine, so even when fully vaccinated you can still become infected and pass it on (although this is much less likely). What the vaccine is very good at is stopping serious disease not infection. In fact even with 'omicron' where transmissibility may be increased for various reasons it is likely that vaccines will still prevent serious disease. This is clear from current UK figures (mostly delta) where case rates are high and rising but hospitalisations are falling as are deaths because of the booster campaign. The vaccine is doing it's job very well, but that job is often misunderstood.

Finally the unvaccinated people are a risk to everybody because the allow the virus to replicate more easily, increasing the statistical chance of mutations. The very presence of 'omicron' demonstrates this danger. It is not derived from delta but from a strain in 2020 that never really took off. However it has 'been somewhere' for some time to mutate to the level it has. This may be in wildlife hosts such as rhesus monkeys, but may also be a chronically infected human that remained infected for months allowing multiple mutations. The large scale problem with HIV in southern African countries should not be ignored when chronic infections are concerned.

The reality is that we will need to vaccinate regularly, probably annually for many years to come to have some level of control over the virus. Countries with low vaccination rates in Europe are having catastrophic case rates and hospital cases, which isn't just resulting in deaths from COVID but also other diseases that cannot be treated in a timely way because the healthcare system is overwhelmed. Quoting stupid '99% of people survive' type statistics as some do (not you I realise) is neither helpful nor a realistic representation of what is happening in hospitals. 

Politics have no role in disease control. Vaccines do.

 

17 hours ago, thebartman said:

Do I recall correctly - that many months ago - the registration of who had which jab (if any) was defnietley "NOT GOING TO BE USED AS A COVID PASSPORT" citation "Boris et. al."?

BTW - can't wait to continue the conversations at tomorow's TLF Christmas party🤮

 

Again politics interfering with disease control. Boris doesn't rule the world even if he thinks he does. This is a global problem and petty politics in the UK mean nothing to COVID. Vaccine passports are here to stay for many things, and I for one feel far more reassured when everybody around me is vaccinated.

Edited December 4, 2021 by gregs24

[Barrykearley]

What I find amazing is folks whom mention the uncontrolled damage we are doing as an overpopulated species on the planet - and then moaning like drains when Mother Nature kicks back - albeit with the assistance of the PRC

Don’t even get me started on the nhs continuing to “save” folks whom have absolutely no quality of life and frankly should be left to pass over peacefully

[Colin P]

Now this I agree with completely. Disease is a form of pest control. And let’s face it we are as a species far worse than any plague of locusts etc. 

Best not get onto the question of population control. It could all become very politically incorrect. That said population control needs to happen before conception, not by exposing the vulnerable. 

[exeterjeep]

11 minutes ago, Colin P said:

exposing the vulnerable. 

exposing the vulnerable should be inconceivable . 

[Barrykearley]

3 hours ago, Colin P said:

Best not get onto the question of population control. It could all become very politically incorrect. That said population control needs to happen before conception, not by exposing the vulnerable. 

Careful some may crack out the tin foil and bring up the anti-vaxxing rhetoric.

 

[Barrykearley]

3 hours ago, Colin P said:

not by exposing the vulnerable. 

In nature - the lion always eats the most vulnerable zebra.

[tim_marra]

And sometimes Lions eat other Lions not of their making

[C8RKH]

9 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

In nature - the lion always eats the most vulnerable zebra.

Humans have been doing that for years. It's called the class system were the few get fat by feeding off the many.