Is electric really the answer?

[C8RKH]

12 hours ago, MPx said:

What does a £250 pcp buy you?

A brand new Nissan Leaf with £2.5k down!

Regarding servicing @MPx most ICE cars are now 24 months too, mileage dependent. The Jimny was really old tech after all.

I do agree with you that EVs are ideal for a lot of people to use in cities and towns.

One thing you failed to mention, which is the real killer right now, is the upfront "uplift" in getting into an EV. Very few people on those modern estates would have been able to afford the brand new I3. I don't know what the PCP cost was.

There will always be winners and losers, so sometimes you need to look at the general trend/picture.

The other thing to factor is that in our minds, we are now realistically thinking of an 8-10 year lifetime for an EV, which then has high "disposal" impacts, compared to 18-20 years for an ICE with better than 95% recyclability.

Are the current EVs really better for the environment? Hmmm....

[Chillidoggy]

In my case, it buys a Ford Focus Titanium, with nothing down.

[MPx]

23 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

The other thing to factor is that in our minds, we are now realistically thinking of an 8-10 year lifetime for an EV, which then has high "disposal" impacts, compared to 18-20 years for an ICE with better than 95% recyclability.

I know you and many others are - and of course that sets expectations in itself.  I'm more open minded.  I've seen nothing over the first 6 years that suggests the i3 is aging any quicker than ICE...but maybe it'll fall off a cliff, we'll see.  I'll cetainly still have it then to find out.

[Kimbers]

13 hours ago, MPx said:

  What does a £250 pcp buy you?

Wendy's Kia Sportage 3 spec (2nd top) £236 a month over 3 years. Every 3 years I just replace her car with another. No MOT costs, no repairs ever as they are always in warranty.

[ramjet]

So someone over here ran a contest between two BMWs from Melbourne to Sydney.

One ICE vs one EV.

ICE won hands down.

They did say that the EV would make more sense on short trips in the city, but is no competition on the longer runs. Which agrees with what @Bibs has said re regenerative braking etc.

Since it can take four to five days in an ICE car sitting on the limit the whole way to get from Sydney to Perth, I'm going with EVs not having a place in Australia yet.

[MPx]

2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

A brand new Nissan Leaf with £2.5k down!

1 hour ago, Chillidoggy said:

In my case, it buys a Ford Focus Titanium, with nothing down.

1 hour ago, Kimbers said:

Wendy's Kia Sportage 3 spec (2nd top) £236 a month over 3 years.

 

 

Ok...so my worse case of a valueless i3 in 10 years costs me a same as other non-descript cars would have done.  IF (as I suspect given the number of 2014 i3s still on the road and the total lack of scandal headlines of kaput batteries) it actually lasts me longer, then obvs the annual costs decline further.....PCPs go the other way.

And while I understand your reasoning Tony - especially as you're in the industry - we all know that PCP is a more expensive way of car ownership than other methods if you have average luck as that's how the companies involved remain profitable.

[C8RKH]

2 hours ago, MPx said:

I've seen nothing over the first 6 years that suggests the i3 is aging any quicker than ICE...but maybe it'll fall off a cliff, we'll see.

The issue is very much the battery tech. They have a set number of expected "recharge" cycles, all batteries are the same - it's basic physics, not hocus pocus, or hearsay, etc.

Just like with an ICE engine it very much depends on how the batteries are treated with a large number of "fast recharge" cycles being detrimental, as is letting the capacity regularly fall below 20%, and charging regularly to 100%.

With the battery, the point is they can seem "fine" right up until the point where they start to collapse, or fail totally. It's the same with your phone, tablet, laptop etc.

There will always be people who do better, or worse than average, which is why ONE experience does not define a trend etc. Only time will tell how good the tech was, but there are plenty of examples out there of batteries that went poof, just as there are plenty of examples where they didn't. As with most things cars related, it's a lottery and some have good experiences, some bad.

[C8RKH]

2 hours ago, Kimbers said:

Wendy's Kia Sportage 3 spec (2nd top) £236 a month over 3 years.

Just been on Kia's website and a 1.6 Sportage 3 PHEV is £623.23 per month with £4.2k down. Wendy got a spectacular deal there Tony!

I got it as low as £254.16, but that was with a whopping £20,287 deposit.

[Kimbers]

2 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Just been on Kia's website and a 1.6 Sportage 3 PHEV is £623.23 per month with £4.2k down. Wendy got a spectacular deal there Tony!

There's always deals to be done mate. Traded in her Citroen so was about £1500 trade in. But when you work the trade you know how to "Work the trade". That was costing me £140 a month. Her previous car was £129 a month. If I hear of a deal I tend to trade her car in early

BUT, we are in trying times right now. The cost of borrowing money has gone up 3 fold which doesn't help. Values are still falling like a stone and the manufacturers have all over priced their vehicles due to the bouyant market in the last 3 years (due to limitations on new vehicle supply). A good example is an unnamed manufacturer. We used to get 32% discount to buy 200 small vans off them a year. In 2020 they withdrew terms all together as they couldn't build enough to meet retail demand. 2021 they offered 12%, 14% last year and this year 19%. But we haven't bought a single one because you know what we need to make a profit now? 32%!

Last year alone they had 4 price increases on those vans, so it costs £2000 more than it did in 2022. But if you look at values now they are worth £3000 less as a 3 year used than in 2022 making a difference of £5000. This alone is your reason Leasing, Contract Hire and PCP is so expensive right now (with the rate increases) because all these products have a balloon final payment that takes into account the final value when you hand the vehicle back.

As I said they have to hugely increase discounts or drop the Price of their products or they are just too expensive for people to realistically afford.

That's my assessment and I'm sticking to it  

[MPx]

17 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

 it's basic physics, not hocus pocus, or hearsay, etc.

Just like with an ICE engine it very much depends on how the batteries are treated

Yeah...obviously I've read all about the physics too.  I'd be interested to know how many i3 batteries have actually failed within 10 years vs how many BMW ICE have failed within the same time frame.  My guess is very very few of either although I have no verified stats on that - there's certainly been no press scare mongering on i3 batteries that I'm aware of.  Yet there's no end of people saying that "the batteries WILL fail, that's just the physics" whereas no-one is saying your ICE will fail - we all know it might but just accept we're unlucky if it does.  And as you know, I'm not arguing about EVs regularly used for 400 mile journeys and regular fast charging I'm arguing about the other end of typical journey length (what most people do in their other car) and slow rate home chargers.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Do EV drivers really keep the battery 20% - 80% charged, as recommended by the manufacturers? I can’t see it myself. On say a 200 mile range, you’ll only be operating in that 40 - 160 mile window, meaning only 120 miles between charges to keep the battery healthy.

[C8RKH]

47 minutes ago, MPx said:

Yeah...obviously I've read all about the physics too.  I'd be interested to know how many i3 batteries have actually failed within 10 years vs how many BMW ICE have failed within the same time frame.  My guess is very very few of either although I have no verified stats on that - there's certainly been no press scare mongering on i3 batteries that I'm aware of.  Yet there's no end of people saying that "the batteries WILL fail, that's just the physics" whereas no-one is saying your ICE will fail - we all know it might but just accept we're unlucky if it does.  And as you know, I'm not arguing about EVs regularly used for 400 mile journeys and regular fast charging I'm arguing about the other end of typical journey length (what most people do in their other car) and slow rate home chargers.

I think you're being very selective Mike ijn your responses. The failure rates of ICE vehicles are pretty well known and company's that provide the third party warranties for them are well aware of what fails, when, and the cost of repair for just about any mainstream ICE car you care to mention. Indeed, these companies often issue reports on average warranty repairs and costs per brand, sometimes per brand and model.

You are basing all your assumptions on one instance - your experience with your I3. One EV, from one brand, is not a statistically good measure re the overall performance of EV's and their batteries.

The I3 was an early EV with a not too "over stressed" battery. As stated, how many fast charge cycles has your battery had? How many times has it been run below 20% and charged to 100%? All of these things have a significant influence on longevity and performance. The I3 was marketed and probably (my assumption) is used more generally as a town/city car. That being the case it is more likely charged at lower voltages at home, unlike some that are used for high mileages and charged frequently on fast/rapid chargers away from the home.

Use factors are also important for an ICE car.  Has it been thrashed? Has the clutch been subjected to heavy wear through abuse? Has the car been serviced properly? Etc.

Battery tech has evolved to the point where I doubt (but happy to be proved wrong) that you will, if you have an issue, be able to get a replacement battery pack for your I3. That is not the case currently with an ICE car, if, the engine fails.

The final point - you say "people saying the batteries will fail but no-one is saying your ICE will fail" is crass. The reason I say that is that ICE cars have been around for a century in the mainstream. They are a refined product and well understood. The main failure points are known etc. EVs, are new. The battery tech is new. We're on a huge learning curve and until we are further down that learning curve we will not have the "confidence" in the tech. Finally, as I said before, the physics is certain, the batteries will fail. They will one average, fail long before the average ICE engine fails. Over time, the battery tech will improve further, as will their safety performance. Just like it has with ICE.

I'm really pleased your I3 has been a success. It's a great story. But it is not THE DEFINING STORY re EVs and their batteries and their reliability. Just like my 10 year trouble free motoring experience with Evora's, is not the defining experience of Evora's as plenty on here have had plenty of problems with them.

I try to provide balance these days when discussing EV and ICE. 

 

 

 

[Bibs]

2 hours ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Do EV drivers really keep the battery 20% - 80% charged, as recommended by the manufacturers? I can’t see it myself. On say a 200 mile range, you’ll only be operating in that 40 - 160 mile window, meaning only 120 miles between charges to keep the battery healthy.

Nope. I kind of did at first but after a while just plugged it in on the overnight cheap charge and let it do what it liked. Not often it was at 100% for more than a day or two and very, very rarely less than 20% in reality though. 

[MPx]

22 hours ago, C8RKH said:

I think you're being very selective Mike in your responses.   We both are Andy - I'm arguing "other car" low milage, short journeys, charge at home - you're arguing repmobiles doing 400m trips and fast charging.

You are basing all your assumptions on one instance - your experience with your I3. One EV, from one brand, is not a statistically good measure re the overall performance of EV's and their batteries.  True its based on real life personal evidence...but I also frequent EV fora and see what other owners have experienced and post about.  There has been no i3 battery issue reported that I've seen (in production since 2013) and very few others outside early Leaf.

The I3 was an early EV with a not too "over stressed" battery. As stated, how many fast charge cycles has your battery had? None

How many times has it been run below 20% A handful

and charged to 100%? Every charge so at least once a week.

All of these things have a significant influence on longevity and performance. The I3 was marketed and probably (my assumption) is used more generally as a town/city car. That being the case it is more likely charged at lower voltages at home, unlike some that are used for high mileages and charged frequently on fast/rapid chargers away from the home.  Exactly what I'm saying about horses for coures - agreed.

The final point - you say "people saying the batteries will fail but no-one is saying your ICE will fail" is crass. "Crass" - really ? you go on to agree with the fact!  I agree we're still learning and things will likely improve, but however much they improve batteries will still in the end fail.  So do ICE.  We dont have threads bemoaning the fact that engines fail at their end of their life.  Why is the battery thing so trumpeted as fact when we don't actually know what that life is.  Accepted of course that its likely before ICE given the current state of technology.

The reason I say that is that ICE cars have been around for a century in the mainstream. They are a refined product and well understood. The main failure points are known etc. EVs, are new. The battery tech is new. We're on a huge learning curve and until we are further down that learning curve we will not have the "confidence" in the tech. Finally, as I said before, the physics is certain, the batteries will fail. They will one average, fail long before the average ICE engine fails. Over time, the battery tech will improve further, as will their safety performance. Just like it has with ICE.

I'm really pleased your I3 has been a success. It's a great story. But it is not THE DEFINING STORY re EVs and their batteries and their reliability. Just like my 10 year trouble free motoring experience with Evora's, is not the defining experience of Evora's as plenty on here have had plenty of problems with them.

I try to provide balance these days when discussing EV and ICE.   Ditto - its funny how balance can differ innit?

 

 

 

 

[C8RKH]

45 minutes ago, MPx said:

We both are Andy - I'm arguing "other car" low milage, short journeys, charge at home - you're arguing repmobiles doing 400m trips and fast charging.

I'm actually not. I'm looking at the "average" use which is not always town/city short journeys for the average person.

 

45 minutes ago, MPx said:

"Crass" - really ?

Yes - your comment wasn't realistic as people have been talking about ICE failures for years. It is hard to compare an old technology like ICE (that had to deal with all the naysayers and negativity 100 years ago) with something that is new (relatively speaking) and unknown (relatively speaking).

 

As I said, you are talking about your experience with one model from one brand.

There are tons of instances of battery failures and issues from other brands. You can't have balance when just looking at one spoke in the wheel.

I'm genuinely pleased the I3 has been a success, and it's worked for you. But that does not counter the issues others have had.

Yup, it is important to be "balanced", and I, and others, will not always get that balance right. But just using "one experience" to justify something as great is not balance. Just because you use predominantly low voltage charging and have not had an issue, does not detract from the well documented (backed by scientific papers) issues around regular use of fast chargers and the impact it has on battery life and performance. As we move to mass adoption of EVs, a significantly higher proportion of those EVs are likely to be charged on public, fast chargers, than at home, purely due to more people having homes without drives etc, than those that do.

Always good to have great banter and opposing view points.

[Rambo]

Looks like e-cars will need passports to enter Europe before too long

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/battery-passports

[exeterjeep]

One of the replies to the above article, says..

Slightly misleading article as it's not just batteries. Over the next few years every single product coming into the EU needs a full carbon footprint hence the need to understand where the raw materials are sourced. Other countries are following suit so by 2035 nearly everywhere will have similar regulations. 

 

(And with one paper suggesting a war with Russia in the next 20 years..... just despair about the future of mankind..)

[exeterjeep]

[Bibs]

This was in the USA, right? Bit odd as places like Sweden are full of EV's and I wonder how they manage, do the chargers have some failsafe heating to keep them in the correct operating temps perhaps?

[C8RKH]

Latest Which? car buyers guide is out, and according to their research, in general, EVs are proving to be less reliable than petrol, or hybrid, cars. I bet that's a shock to some.

EVs fared worse for the categories of one fault or more, one breakdown or more and days off the road for repair (that was 50% more than ICE/Hybrid).

As usual, Audi was at the bottom (2nd bottom only to Alfa Romeo) in the reliability stakes - Durspung Von Teknik my arse - and shows how people are duped by marketing/image.

Land/Range Rover third from bottom, again, no surprise there and again shows how people are duped into parting with large wedges for mutton dressed as lamb.

Top three all Japanese - Lexus, Toyota (which I believe now offers a class leading 10 year warranty) and then Honda.

I guess EVs are the future, but currently it doesn't look like a reliable future, generally speaking. Will probably get better but as cars, and especially EVs are becoming more technologically complex, I can see the failure rates remaining high as generally, Tech in cars fails more than mechanical parts do.

[pete]

My grandson asked me today why I hadn't got an ev as it was much better for the environment. Turns out this is what they are being told in school, brainwashing them early.

 

[C8RKH]

Yup.

[andyj007]

we have a ev for local town use, local journeys..  its a bmw i3s its utterly brilliant  for that purposde .. its also an interesting deisgn (carbon fibre , plastic and aluminum with  weight at  just over 1200 kg   .. i like the way it drives to..   .just what an EV shoudl be .. . .. we dont and  would not want to even entertain using public chargers , nasty places and expensive .. for our  use and as a local car.comute  its perfect.. it has a range of 140-170 miles winter to summer . it gets charged overnight or a mains trickle charger at british gas off peak 9p kw .. we average around 3.7 m/kwh .. currently free road tax although we may get charged the standard rate from 2025 , god only know why our cluess gov changing that retrospectivly......    we average 7k mles which costs us just £170 in leccy .. insurance was £335 just re done it.  servicing is cheap.. yes there are a few things to go wrong that are more expensive  and its always a main dealer return .(my volvo v90 needs two rear lighst at 1k Effin LED lights so its all realtive ) .  it feels so right just sitting in a traffic jamb  or at the lights . ..  .. EV is totally flawed tho for the masses it just does not work , i guess 90% off  all  new EVS are company cars and purcased with incentives .. no sane person would spend huge amounts of personal money  for these new they just loose too much money .. 2nd hand market is very odd.. the big expensive  cars are limited life 10 years IMO ,,  at best ,, they will just be too expensive to fix  compared to an iCE car .. the masses just will not be abe to afford to fix them  hence teh bottom falling out of the second  hand EV market .on big cars . .  the smaller cars a little different  , they have to be fixable..  our little i3  has enough 2nd hand parts and is reasonble straight forward to work on and swap battery should it need it..  some have already hit 300km with stll 85% life left.. plus there are couple  specalist for half the main dealer rates....    i would hope i could do most my self .. it has a brilloting i drive entertain,net system with no touch screen in site ,, truth be told thsi was 80% of the reason we purcased it.. cant stand the bloody touch screen 

The UK  charging net work is just a total mess, typical british uncordinated bodge..  half dont work, you dont know. what your paying hafl the time ,, in colchester i would need 7 different apps on my phone  to use athe different charges.  supposedly fast charges dont fast charge if there is too much grid demand think cold dark non windy times between 5-8pm..  

Electric 100% isnt a future in any shape or form ,its a total mess , but it does have a place along side ICE .. it saves us £90 month like  for  like on running cost  over previous merc diesel , servicing aside this would make the savings even more greater ..  

as soon as the salary sacrafice / tax incentives / and road tax incentives stop ther is zero reason to buy an EV over an ICE car ..  you cant even say they save teh planet. the carbon footprint to create a ev is huge ..  you have to travel at least 40-50k miles just for that to break even with a ICE car .. 

I will give tesla a pat on teh back tho  if forced this is what id relctantly have as a big car  whilst the cars are bland they do have a fanatstic charging network.. investing in infrustructure first was a genius move ..  

[C8RKH]

Great, open, honest post.

[andyj007]

I can spell btw  , just not with a small phone and big fingers sitting in a slow moving traffic jam   it seems...... and now I can not  edit the post , 🙈