Is electric really the answer?

[Rambo]

Errrrrr... you're not supposed to be texting whilst driving. Even in an electric car 🤔

[Dave Eds]

6 hours ago, pete said:

My grandson asked me today why I hadn't got an ev as it was much better for the environment. Turns out this is what they are being told in school, brainwashing them early.

 

My Grandad was my idol when I was growing up............he was real school....

[C8RKH]

10 hours ago, Rambo said:

Errrrrr... you're not supposed to be texting whilst driving. Even in an electric car 🤔

Good point.

@andyj007 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

There’s nothing else to do!

[andyj007]

12 hours ago, Rambo said:

Errrrrr... you're not supposed to be texting whilst driving. Even in an electric car 🤔

traffic jam , thats ok in my book .. 

[andyj007]

On 16/01/2024 at 09:22, Kimbers said:

Wendy's Kia Sportage 3 spec (2nd top) £236 a month over 3 years. Every 3 years I just replace her car with another. No MOT costs, no repairs ever as they are always in warranty.

dont you need to drop a coupel K  down as first payment ?  i think we will do this next time..   back in the day owning a car car was a sense of achivement, saving up   , it was yours .. something to be proud off.. all that goes out the window with a car thats never yours .. its taking me a while to get my head around that .. always been a save up buy person..   but at least i have my classics ,   but as new cars get more unreliable and expensive fix even the small things like hedlight bulbs run into thousands .  1 headlamp on some cars is 6 months payments ! on a deal like this .   its a no brainer ,, i feel sorry for those that have to buy these cars second hand ...  and foot the bill for the parts when they fail tho..   their choices for cars cheap to fix are dissapearing 

 

[C8RKH]

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/opinion/362056/electric-cars-could-end-betamax

[exeterjeep]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/22/the-guardian-view-on-suvs-the-trend-towards-vast-cars-needs-to-be-reversed

Not just EV's but all these new cars getting bigger and bigger, every manufacturer seems to want to play top trumps including size - is size really important..

 

Last year the average width passed 180cm, too big to fit comfortably in some parking spaces. Campaigners warn that unless regulators step in, cars could keep growing to match trucks and buses.

Even the growing market for electric SUVs risks becoming part of the problem, since calculations of environmental impact include materials and energy used in manufacture, as well as minerals for batteries. While electric vehicles will always be preferable to exact equivalents powered by petrol or diesel, the size of some is cancelling out the benefits of what is meant to be a transition to a greener lifestyle.

 

[pete]

in moto gp this year all paddock bikes must be electric

[Escape]

The average customer seems to want ever more gadgets, insulation, comfort trickery, safety features etc. It is only logical that cars grow bigger to accommodate all this.

Manufacturers know fully well that a bigger car with more profit will allow a bigger margin, so why invest in something compact? Look at any brand and compare the same model from 40/30/20 years ago with the current offering. It's a huge difference, usually the model has gone up at least one segment. And often no smaller models are introduced to fill the gap, as there simply isn't enough demand.

Trying to stop this trend with more regulations is just another example of how those in charge want to control every aspect of our lives (imho). I wonder what will be next, outlaw all bright colors because somebody could take offense and a car, being inherently evil, should not look attractive in the first place. 😕

[JimmytheTurbo]

Has Polestar gone bust?

[Nick Sticks]

The Polestar CEO is upbeat for 2024 so maybe.......

 

[JimmytheTurbo]

So what I was looking at was relating more to Volvo and the value of their holding in Polestar

 

Sweden’s Volvo Car AB saw its target price cut by more than a third to a new street low after analysts at SEB AB scrubbed the value they assign to the company’s 48% stake in struggling EV maker Polestar.

Volvo Car’s new target price of 28 Swedish kronor per share follows “sizable estimate cuts” and “no longer attributing a value to Polestar,” SEB analysts said in a note to clients. The research team had previously given Polestar an 18 billion kronor ($1.72 billion)

 

[pete]

Kia and Mercedes have adverts banned over range claims

https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/25439506/major-car-rapped-watchdog-misleading-adverts/

[drdoom]

14 hours ago, Escape said:

The average customer seems to want ever more gadgets, insulation, comfort trickery, safety features etc. It is only logical that cars grow bigger to accommodate all this.

Manufacturers know fully well that a bigger car with more profit will allow a bigger margin, so why invest in something compact? Look at any brand and compare the same model from 40/30/20 years ago with the current offering. It's a huge difference, usually the model has gone up at least one segment. And often no smaller models are introduced to fill the gap, as there simply isn't enough demand.

Trying to stop this trend with more regulations is just another example of how those in charge want to control every aspect of our lives (imho). I wonder what will be next, outlaw all bright colors because somebody could take offense and a car, being inherently evil, should not look attractive in the first place. 😕

Agree that governments may well cock up anything they attempt to regulate. What I see looming is an era of declining financial well-being for what remains of the middle class and, if at all true, market forces will impell the industry to make vehicles in harmony with that reality. Quite certain it's economics above all compelling the proliferation of bicycles in my part of the world.

[Escape]

I think the economics of supply and demand are being pushed to one side for the last couple of years. People don't actually need the newest smartphone or a TV that is just the a bit bigger/flatter/brighter than the one they have and that is working fine. Or the latest electrified carbon framed bicycle (that needs to resort to carbon to compensate for the heavy electric system that most don't need in the first place). It's similar with cars, I feel like a lot of options/features or technology is pushed, either by regulations or brands and not really aimed at what the public wants or needs. But if the media make a hype out of it and enough green wingers claim it will safe the planet, lots of people will happily bury themselves ind debt just to comply.

Or maybe I'm the exception that is content with a basic phone and wants a simple car that is fun to drive and looks good. 😉

[C8RKH]

@drdoom the biggest impact is the rise in interest rates which has practically doubled the cost of buying cars on credit, hitting the middle classes hard, who tend (along with the lease companies/company car drivers) to drive the majority of new car registrations in the UK. People seemed quite happy (though I have never understood why) to pay £550 - £850 per month for cars on a three year lease. Hence why you see so many Audi, BMW, Merc etc cars on the road. Obviously, these companies were happy to build over-priced tat to satisfy that market.

Now, that £550 - £850 is no longer buying the cars that people are used to having, and average lease durations are creeping up from the usual 36 months, to 47 and even 59 months, to allow people to swap "like-for-like". This means people may well keep their next new car longer than they have in the past, and that will shore up future used car prices. Maybe.

As an example, our local BMW dealer is offering PCP on 1 year old BMW's at 13.9%!  It was not that long ago it would have been 6.9%, so half the amount. The result, you end up paying £42k in total for a £31k car. That's a hell of a shit deal in my opinion.

New cars at zero% are few and far between, compared to again, a little over a year ago. It's now roughly between 4% and 8%. Add on to that the frankly ridiculous rise in new car prices, where something as mundane as a BMW 118 has a list price of £32k, before any options, extras etc, and I don't believe the market is that appealing right now.

Ironically, EVs, on the second hand market are looking great value, and everything points to their 2nd hand price collapse continuing for some time. Ford is the latest manufacturer to announce it is cutting back production on some electric models due to poor sales. A business associate of mine was offered a new Tesla Y at £295 per month, nothing down. That's an outrageously, superb, deal for anyone. Overall though, the average "joe" or "joanne" is still not convinced it would seem with EV.

As an example, the great looking (in my opinion) Mercedes EQA and EQB SUV's can be had at under half the mrp price at 2 years old, with a 6 year battery warranty. For £25k you can get yourself into an electric, 7 seat SUV,  with the key toys you want, a 340 mile wltp range and AWD!. It may have 20k - 30k miles on it, but you could run it for 5 years (the battery warranty duration) and throw the car away, and still be circa £35-45k better off than buying a new one and ditching it after 3 years. Some sensible economics there if you can tolerate not being a cars first owner.

I won't be dropping any cash on a new EV right now. Possibly a used one, the EQA/EQB might be too tempting and I can push the E-class cabriolet in as a px in spring when prices for convertibles recover somewhat. PHEV seems to be the really sensible choice right now, and values are holding up reasonably.

The current lithium-ion batteries are a betamax solution. The introduction of the new solid state batteries over the next 2-3 years will make the previous L-ion cars almost unsellable. Solid state will provide significantly extra range, reduced charging times, extended battery life, and virtually eliminate the fire risk that L-ion accelerates. In three years, I suspect you'll be picking up L-ion cars, 3 years old, at a mahoosive discount. Not sure anything older than 5 years will sell - though at the right price, any car will find an owner. But what that "right price" might be, could be shocking for the seller!

The top end is suffering too, a used Ferrari 296 has dropped £111k (yes, that's right, One hundred and eleven thousand pounds) in 6 months, and is still not selling. There's apparently some real anxiety at the "top end" of the market when it comes to batteries too. Given the experience of Porsche Taycan and Panamera EV and PHEV owners, this is not surprising. A 3 year old Taycan can now be had for under £50k. That's a £70k saving on what it would have cost new (the early cars tended to be high spec £115k - £135k cars new). Again, battery anxiety seems to be the main issue sighted here.

Apparently, Porsche are willing to talk "discounts" on new cars (obviously not the GT cars) which is frankly, unheard of. Ferrari too have apparently offered new car "discounts". Again. Unheard of in recent times.

As much as the chip shortage, I suspect it's the interest rate rises, very well paying job losses in sectors like IT/Tech, and the end of the initial "I'm cashing in my pension for the tax free lump sum" craze that is going to see consumers really rein back their spending on cars. Right now, I would not be splashing out large on any new car, EV, PHEV or ICE, as I think a large "loss" would be on the horizon for some foreseeable time.

Niche cars will always be that, and will hold value. Maybe why the Evora is genuinely doing quite well - it's rare, it looks good, not many for sale, for buyers can be picky/desperate depending on what they are looking for, and what comes to the market. Anything that is selling in high numbers now, I really worry what the future price outlook looks like.

 

[Rambo]

You can buy a 1st Gen. Nissan Leaf for under £2k on Autotrader. 

80 miles the quoted range according to an e-car article I read 🤔

[C8RKH]

Which @Rambo for the average "Joe/Joanne" going to/from work, shopping, the gym whatever in a Town/City would be a great, cheap, motoring buy. Also ideal for youngsters who just drive locally. When it packs up, throw it away, buy another one!

The only issue is you would, I believe, HAVE to charge it at home as the charging modules/cables it uses are being phased out and will not be public charging compatible - I am sure I have understood that correctly and it only affects Leaf's manufactured before 2019.

[MPx]

Yes...and also its the Leaf that has the poorest reputation for battery deg as well as the type 1 connector - the old ones are cheap because no one wants one.

But in better news it seems I'm not the only data point on singing the i3's praises.  There's at least two of us.  This posted on SpeakEV yesterday:

Todays date Jan 2024. Am based in Wales United Kingdom. My car BMW i3 is 2014 60Ah Rex. This little Gem has just passed 211,000 miles (339,000 km). Car has been absolutely amazing so far. Still on original battery & a set of original factory brakes. Full BMW service history. In Winter I still get 60 miles + from battery. Use slow granny charger every night.

[C8RKH]

There is no doubt the I3 is a great car, but it's frugly (my eyes) on the outside. I quite like the interior with the suicide rear doors. Very practical as is the boot 😵

Still not practical for anything much more than local commuting and journeys/weekend trips. Many are the lower 100/80 mile ranges.

[Bibs]

https://www.am-online.com/news/market-insight/2024/01/24/used-evs-prices-boosted-as-market-realigns

[C8RKH]

The prices for used EVs are still way below were they were @Bibs and again, as I have said many times before, it is the price sensitivity (along with worries re batteries) that re keeping people in the mass market away from EV's. The price rises in the article are all sub £25k used EV's, many of which started out life less than 2 years ago as £50k+ EV's. I hate to say it, but the six figure "semi-premium" EV's are going to get battered in the 2nd hand market. The Taycan is a case in point where three year "losses" are in the £60-80k range, so buyer beware.

The price rebound, as stated in the article, is due to manufacturers offering very little, new, in the sub £25k bracket for EV buyers to salivate over. The long term trend is still down.

As I stated above though, the good news is that if you're in the market, a 2 year old Merc EQB, with 7 seats, over 300 miles range and AWD is an absolute steal at £25k.

[Dan E]

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

There is no doubt the I3 is a great car, but it's frugly (my eyes) on the outside. I quite like the interior with the suicide rear doors. Very practical as is the boot 😵

Still not practical for anything much more than local commuting and journeys/weekend trips. Many are the lower 100/80 mile ranges.

I have to say @C8RKH my wife has had one of these for the last two maybe three years, bought new (one of the last ones before they stopped production) for her it is absolutely brilliant and to be honest I quite like it too, she absolutely loves it. She had a BMW 440i Coupe beforehand and the running costs are night and day. We charge it at home on the Octopus EV tariff thing @Bibs recommended. Bloody cheap motoring although I will disagree the suicide doors are a pain in the arse!! Also someone keyed it, which surprised me, but there you go!! 

I am just waiting for delivery of the new Tesla 3 Highland, no I do not find it in the slightest bit interesting, can't say it is particularly that good to look at either and I haven't even driven one. This will be my first company car in at least 25 years, BIK something like £407 a year, charger at work and obvs at home, zero road tax, no CC charge, all maintenance inc tyres and i do 25k miles a year. It's an appliance and for me that works financially and I have never had a cool work car because only scaffolders are allowed to drive Range Rovers 😀

Also when Spring comes I can always pull out the Evora 

[Bibs]

23 minutes ago, Dan E said:

only scaffolders are allowed to drive Range Rovers

Didn't one of them rock up in an Eletre the other week?!